Rye Fermentation Stall

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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7bruno7
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Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

I have a rye fermentation that has stalled, and I’m not sure why??

I’m fermenting on the grain (75% rye, 15% corn, 10% pale ale malt), I’ve stirred the contents of the fermenter the last 2 days to get the yeast back into suspension, the temperature of the fermenter is currently at 83°, the PH is currently 4.4, and the gravity is currently 1.025.

Gravity started at 1.07, fermented great for the first 2 days, which resulted in the gravity dropping to 1.028, then the fermentation has slowed down dramatically, maybe even stopped, the last 2 days and the gravity as I mentioned is currently at 1.025.

Why has the fermentation slowed so dramatically, or maybe even stopped, what am I missing, what am I possibly doing wrong to cause this??
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by greggn »

7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 am
the temperature of the fermenter is currently at 83°, the PH is currently 4.4,

What yeast did you use and how are you measuring pH ?
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by Twisted Brick »

7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 am
Gravity started at 1.07, fermented great for the first 2 days, which resulted in the gravity dropping to 1.028, then the fermentation has slowed down dramatically, maybe even stopped, the last 2 days and the gravity as I mentioned is currently at 1.025.
Depending on the yeast used, it may have exhausted all of the fermentables. What were your mash temps?
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

greggn,
Yeasts used were a 50-50 blend of SafAle S-04 and SafSpirit M-1 yeasts. Also, I am measuring my pH with a scientific digital pH meter.

Twisted Brick,
The rye is a raw/unmalted rye. Adjusting pH with citric acid to lower pH and calcium hydroxide to raise pH. Mash temps process: heated water in mash tun to 190°, added SebStar HTL enzyme and mixed in unmalted rye, with mash tun temperature being 178° after all rye was mixed in, cooked rye in mash tun at between 170° to 175° for 1 hour, let mash tun temperature cool to 155°, then added the corn slurry, malted barley, and SebAmyl GL to the mixture and cooked at between 147° to 153° for at least 90 minutes. At the end of the cook, starch conversion to sugar was confirmed with the iodine test.

I saw that you had initially responded to my post with a number of initial questions, but then I lost your post and couldn’t find it back. I tried to remember as many questions as I could from your first post, but I may have missed some??

Any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated…
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by OtisT »

I usually include my corn in the high temp part of mashing. Maybe your corn did not convert well? Otis
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

OtisT,
It is hard to explain, but the corn portion was cooked in a separate vessel for convenience, per the same temperature and enzyme mixture as the rye at the 190° mark…in other words, the corn slurry was already gelatinized when it was added to the larger mash tun…
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 8Ball »

What are you using to measure the gravity?
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

8Ball,
Digital gravity refractometer, and the calibration was checked for accuracy...
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by StillerBoy »

7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 am I’m fermenting on the grain (75% rye, 15% corn, 10% pale ale malt), I
Mashing a 75% raw rye (or malted really does not matter), it would of benefited had the SEBamyl GL been added at the right temp (130*F or lower) and had some SeBflo TL been used at (140*F or lower) which helps the breakdown of beta-glucans to simple sugars and also assist in promoting liquefaction and reduces viscosity..

That would of allow the fermenation to drop some, as what you have now, it's probably finished fermenting.. check it with a pen light to see if you see any yeast activity (little bubbles)..

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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 8Ball »

7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:10 pm 8Ball,
Digital gravity refractometer, and the calibration was checked for accuracy...
Did you correct the refractometer reading for alcohol present? The ferment is most likely finished if you did not:

FG Brix WRI Alcohol Present:
Original Gravity: 17.03 Brix
FG - (Brix WRI): 6.32 Brix
Wort Correction Factor: 1.00

OG - Corrected:
17.03 °P, 1.070
FG - Corrected:
-0.09 °P, 1.000
Alcohol By Volume:
9.15%
Last edited by 8Ball on Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by howie »

it's also worth noting that although the enzyme companies state a temp range for their products, maybe SEBamyl enzymes also have a sweet spot regarding temp.(probably in the middle of the stated range)
i have obtained a Temp/activity graph & a PH/activity graph for my enzymes so i (try) to get it right.
eg my gluco 'works' from 50c to 80c
but its activity is 90% at 70C and only 50% at 75c.
activity is only 20% at 50c & 80c.
do SEBamyl publish any graphs?
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by StillerBoy »

howie wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:04 pm o SEBamyl publish any graphs?
Not that I'm aware of such, but found this thread on Brewhausforum site which could be of use..
http://www.brewhausforum.com/yaf_postsm ... #post25169

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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 8Ball »

howie wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:04 pm it's also worth noting that although the enzyme companies state a temp range for their products, maybe SEBamyl enzymes also have a sweet spot regarding temp.(probably in the middle of the stated range)
i have obtained a Temp/activity graph & a PH/activity graph for my enzymes so i (try) to get it right.
eg my gluco 'works' from 50c to 80c
but its activity is 90% at 70C and only 50% at 75c.
activity is only 20% at 50c & 80c.
do SEBamyl publish any graphs?
From the SEBamyl data sheets:
SEBstar HTL® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase

13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBstar HTL® Rev. 7/10

Alcohol & Starch Division

Description:
SEBstar HTL is a heat-stable, liquid alpha-amylase enzyme. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBstar HTL is an endo-amylase that randomly hydrolyzes alpha1,4-glycosidic bonds in gelatinized starch. The prolonged action of SEBstar HTL rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starch and produces large amounts of lower molecular weight dextrins.
Application:
SEBstar HTL is used in the starch industry to continuously liquefy and dextrinize gelatinized, wet-milled corn and wheat starch for the production of low-dextrose (DE 7 – 15) starch syrups. Because of its heat stability, broad pH tolerance and low calcium requirement, SEBstar HTL can be used to liquefy starch slurries at temperatures as high as 90oC without the addition of calcium. In the alcohol industry it is used for high-temperature liquefaction of starch containing grain mashes (corn, wheat, barley, sorghum, rice etc.) for production neutral spirits. In the brewing industry, SEBstar HTL is used to rapidly liquefy and reduce the viscosity of grain adjuncts.
Benefits:
 Excellent thermal stability for liquefaction of steam jet-cooked starch.  Produces low-viscosity, liquid dextrose syrups in 90 minutes at 80 – 90oC.  Whole corn or grain liquefaction at pH 5.8 and 80 - 85oC  Increases wort yield and grain adjunct cooking capacity  Produced by fermentation of non-GMO, organism. All natural, non-synthetic ingredients
Enzyme Properties:
SEBstar HTL is a brown liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH 5.6 – 6.5. SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50 – 90oC. For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes, the optimum temperature is 80 – 85oC. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95oC and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95oC. The activity of SEBstar HTL is stabilized by the presence of Ca++ ions and is inhibited by high concentrations of heavy metals.
Dosage:
The optimum dosage of SEBstar HTL depends on:  nature and dry solids (DS)% of the substrate to be liquefied  final starch-syrup dextrose equivalent (DE, %) required  liquefaction temperature and pH  liquefaction time (typically 30 – 120 minutes)  recommended dose: 200 – 800g/metric ton starch DS or whole grain.
SEBstar HTL® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase

2
Alcohol & Starch Division
Quality Specifications:
SEBstar HTL is manufactured under a quality management system consistent with International Quality System Standard (ISO 9001:2000). Purity specifications comply with FAO/WHO JECFA, FCC and IFOAM recommended standards for food-grade enzymes.
Packaging: SEBstar HTL is available in 25kg Jerry Cans, 225 kg Drums and 1,100 kg tote-bins.
Storage: SEBstar HTL should be stored in a cool, dry place. Storage in unopened containers, at or below 10oC, helps to maintain maximum activity if stored over long periods. Under these conditions, activity loss after one year should not be more than 5 – 10%. Extended storage under adverse conditions, including high temperatures (>10oC) may require the use of higher than recommended dosages.
Safety and Handling:
Liquid enzyme preparations are dust-free. However, inappropriate handling may cause the formation of aerosols or dust. Avoid formation of aerosols and dust from dried out or spilled enzyme. Avoid splashing and high-pressure washing. Unnecessary contact with the product and inhalation of aerosols or dust should be avoided. In case of spillage or contact with eye or skin, rinse affected area promptly with plenty of water. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., provides both Material Safety Data Sheets and advice to customers regarding the safe handling of enzymes.


The information contained in this product sheet is, to the best of our knowledge, true and accurate. Recommendations or suggestions made herein are without guarantee since the conditions of use and of storage are beyond our control. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., does not guarantee the product can be used as described herein without prior positive testing. SEBstar HTL® is a registered trademark of Specialty Enzymes & Biotechnologies Company.

SEBamyl® GL Liquid GlucoAmylase

13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBamyl GL Rev. 10/10
1
Alcohol & Starch Division
Description:
SEBamyl-GL is an enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Aspergillus niger. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher, non-synthetic and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose.

Application:

SEBamyl GL is used in the starch industry to produce glucose from liquefied starch. It is used in the distillery and fuel-alcohol industries for saccharification, and for simultaneous saccharification and fermentation of wholegrain mashes. In the brewing industry it is used to reduce residual grain-starch dextrins in the production of low-carbohydrate beer.
Benefits:
 Excellent temperature range of 30 – 65oC
 pH range of 2.8 – 5.5
 Produces high-DE, glucose syrups in less than 48 hours
 Whole-corn or grain starch saccharification
 Produced by fermentation of non-GMO, organism
 All-natural, non-synthetic ingredients
Enzyme Properties:
SEBamyl GL is a brownish liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to saccharify starch, the optimum pH range is pH 2.8 - 5.5. pH inactivation occurs at a pH below pH 2.5 or above pH 5.5 SEBamyl GL is stable over a temperature range of 30 – 65oC. For saccharifications longer than 24 hours, the optimum temperature range is 55 – 60oC. Temperature inactivation occurs at or above 75oC. Complete inactivation can be achieved by heating to 95oC for approximately 10 minutes at pH 4.5 or to 75oC for 40 minutes.

Dosage:

The optimum dosage of SEBamyl GL depends on:
 Nature of the substrate to be saccharified
 Dry substance (DS) percent of the starch substrate
 Final syrup DE, % glucose required
 Saccharification temperature and pH
 Saccharification time (typically 24 – 96 hours)
 Recommended dose: 400 – 800 mL/metric ton starch DS (2,200 lbs.)

SEBamyl® GL Liquid GlucoAmylase


13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBamyl GL Rev. 10/10
2
Alcohol & Starch Division

Quality Specifications:
SEBamyl GL is manufactured under a quality management system consistent with International Quality System Standard ISO 9001:2000. Purity specifications comply with FAO/WHO JECFA, FCC and IFOAM recommended standards for food-grade enzymes.
Packaging:
SEBamyl GL is available in 25-kg jerry cans, 225-kg drums, 1,100-kg tote-bins, and in bulk.
Storage:
SEBamyl GL should be stored in a cool, dry place. Storage in unopened containers, at or below 5oC, helps to maintain maximum activity if stored over long periods. Under these conditions, activity loss after one year should not be more than 5 – 10%. Extended storage under adverse conditions, including high temperature (>10oC) may require the use of higher than recommended dosages.
Safety and Handling:
Liquid enzyme preparations are dust free. However, inappropriate handling may cause the formation of aerosols or dust. Avoid formation of aerosols and dust from dried out or spilled enzyme. Avoid splashing and high-pressure washing. Aerosols and dust may cause irritation when inhaled. Unnecessary contact with the product and inhalation of dust should be avoided. In case of spillage or contact with the skin or eyes, rinse affected area promptly with plenty of water. Specialty Enzymes and Biochemicals Co., provides Material Safety Data Sheets, and advice regarding the safe handling of enzymes.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by Twisted Brick »

7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm greggn,
Yeasts used were a 50-50 blend of SafAle S-04 and SafSpirit M-1 yeasts. Also, I am measuring my pH with a scientific digital pH meter.

Twisted Brick,
The rye is a raw/unmalted rye. Adjusting pH with citric acid to lower pH and calcium hydroxide to raise pH. Mash temps process: heated water in mash tun to 190°, added SebStar HTL enzyme and mixed in unmalted rye, with mash tun temperature being 178° after all rye was mixed in, cooked rye in mash tun at between 170° to 175° for 1 hour, let mash tun temperature cool to 155°, then added the corn slurry, malted barley, and SebAmyl GL to the mixture and cooked at between 147° to 153° for at least 90 minutes. At the end of the cook, starch conversion to sugar was confirmed with the iodine test.

I saw that you had initially responded to my post with a number of initial questions, but then I lost your post and couldn’t find it back. I tried to remember as many questions as I could from your first post, but I may have missed some??

Any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated…
My apologies, 7B7. I am in the middle of two copper projects for members and ran inside to edit that post and deleted it by mistake. You've answered the questions I had, but my initial thoughts were that you mashed in at too high a temp for rye malt but you eliminated that. From your numbers, your control is good, so I'm thinking your ferment is just taking its time to finish.

8Ball beat me to it, but I wanted to share a couple of items. The commercial guys recommend not to ever add enzymes to water, thinking that enzymes are fragile and need the most hospitable environment (pH and temp) to be pitched into. I'm not certain that you adjusted your pH up and down (per your detail) but many distillers feel that grain alone naturally lowers pH to within a workable range. Obviously, all distillers' water chemistry is different.

I have had good results from rye glucan rests and echo Mars' recommendation of SEBTL for rye. Here are a couple of links that may be of interest:

Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Understanding Impact of Commercial Enzymes
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by shadylane »

7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:10 pm
Digital gravity refractometer, and the calibration was checked for accuracy...
Measure it with a hydrometer.
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

[/quote]

Did you correct the refractometer reading for alcohol present? The ferment is most likely finished if you did not:

FG Brix WRI Alcohol Present:
Original Gravity: 17.03 Brix
FG - (Brix WRI): 6.32 Brix
Wort Correction Factor: 1.00

OG - Corrected:
17.03 °P, 1.070
FG - Corrected:
-0.09 °P, 1.000
Alcohol By Volume:
9.15%
[/quote]

8Ball,
I don't think I'm smart enough to understand the above info/quote...lol??
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

shadylane wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:12 pm
7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:10 pm
Digital gravity refractometer, and the calibration was checked for accuracy...
Measure it with a hydrometer.
shadylane,
That's what I'm doing tomorrow morning...comparing my digital refractometer reading to the hydrometer reading...thanks...
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

8Ball wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:26 pm
howie wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:04 pm it's also worth noting that although the enzyme companies state a temp range for their products, maybe SEBamyl enzymes also have a sweet spot regarding temp.(probably in the middle of the stated range)
i have obtained a Temp/activity graph & a PH/activity graph for my enzymes so i (try) to get it right.
eg my gluco 'works' from 50c to 80c
but its activity is 90% at 70C and only 50% at 75c.
activity is only 20% at 50c & 80c.
do SEBamyl publish any graphs?
From the SEBamyl data sheets:
SEBstar HTL® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase

13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBstar HTL® Rev. 7/10

Alcohol & Starch Division

Description:
SEBstar HTL is a heat-stable, liquid alpha-amylase enzyme. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBstar HTL is an endo-amylase that randomly hydrolyzes alpha1,4-glycosidic bonds in gelatinized starch. The prolonged action of SEBstar HTL rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starch and produces large amounts of lower molecular weight dextrins.
Application:
SEBstar HTL is used in the starch industry to continuously liquefy and dextrinize gelatinized, wet-milled corn and wheat starch for the production of low-dextrose (DE 7 – 15) starch syrups. Because of its heat stability, broad pH tolerance and low calcium requirement, SEBstar HTL can be used to liquefy starch slurries at temperatures as high as 90oC without the addition of calcium. In the alcohol industry it is used for high-temperature liquefaction of starch containing grain mashes (corn, wheat, barley, sorghum, rice etc.) for production neutral spirits. In the brewing industry, SEBstar HTL is used to rapidly liquefy and reduce the viscosity of grain adjuncts.
Benefits:
 Excellent thermal stability for liquefaction of steam jet-cooked starch.  Produces low-viscosity, liquid dextrose syrups in 90 minutes at 80 – 90oC.  Whole corn or grain liquefaction at pH 5.8 and 80 - 85oC  Increases wort yield and grain adjunct cooking capacity  Produced by fermentation of non-GMO, organism. All natural, non-synthetic ingredients
Enzyme Properties:
SEBstar HTL is a brown liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to liquefy cereal grain starch, the optimum pH 5.6 – 6.5. SEBstar HTL has a temperature range of 50 – 90oC. For liquefaction hold times longer than 30 minutes, the optimum temperature is 80 – 85oC. Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95oC and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95oC. The activity of SEBstar HTL is stabilized by the presence of Ca++ ions and is inhibited by high concentrations of heavy metals.
Dosage:
The optimum dosage of SEBstar HTL depends on:  nature and dry solids (DS)% of the substrate to be liquefied  final starch-syrup dextrose equivalent (DE, %) required  liquefaction temperature and pH  liquefaction time (typically 30 – 120 minutes)  recommended dose: 200 – 800g/metric ton starch DS or whole grain.
SEBstar HTL® Heat-Stable Liquid Bacterial Alpha-Amylase

2
Alcohol & Starch Division
Quality Specifications:
SEBstar HTL is manufactured under a quality management system consistent with International Quality System Standard (ISO 9001:2000). Purity specifications comply with FAO/WHO JECFA, FCC and IFOAM recommended standards for food-grade enzymes.
Packaging: SEBstar HTL is available in 25kg Jerry Cans, 225 kg Drums and 1,100 kg tote-bins.
Storage: SEBstar HTL should be stored in a cool, dry place. Storage in unopened containers, at or below 10oC, helps to maintain maximum activity if stored over long periods. Under these conditions, activity loss after one year should not be more than 5 – 10%. Extended storage under adverse conditions, including high temperatures (>10oC) may require the use of higher than recommended dosages.
Safety and Handling:
Liquid enzyme preparations are dust-free. However, inappropriate handling may cause the formation of aerosols or dust. Avoid formation of aerosols and dust from dried out or spilled enzyme. Avoid splashing and high-pressure washing. Unnecessary contact with the product and inhalation of aerosols or dust should be avoided. In case of spillage or contact with eye or skin, rinse affected area promptly with plenty of water. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., provides both Material Safety Data Sheets and advice to customers regarding the safe handling of enzymes.


The information contained in this product sheet is, to the best of our knowledge, true and accurate. Recommendations or suggestions made herein are without guarantee since the conditions of use and of storage are beyond our control. Specialty Enzymes and Biotechnologies Co., does not guarantee the product can be used as described herein without prior positive testing. SEBstar HTL® is a registered trademark of Specialty Enzymes & Biotechnologies Company.

SEBamyl® GL Liquid GlucoAmylase

13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBamyl GL Rev. 10/10
1
Alcohol & Starch Division
Description:
SEBamyl-GL is an enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Aspergillus niger. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher, non-synthetic and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose.

Application:

SEBamyl GL is used in the starch industry to produce glucose from liquefied starch. It is used in the distillery and fuel-alcohol industries for saccharification, and for simultaneous saccharification and fermentation of wholegrain mashes. In the brewing industry it is used to reduce residual grain-starch dextrins in the production of low-carbohydrate beer.
Benefits:
 Excellent temperature range of 30 – 65oC
 pH range of 2.8 – 5.5
 Produces high-DE, glucose syrups in less than 48 hours
 Whole-corn or grain starch saccharification
 Produced by fermentation of non-GMO, organism
 All-natural, non-synthetic ingredients
Enzyme Properties:
SEBamyl GL is a brownish liquid. The enzyme has a slight odor typical of fermented products. It is completely soluble in water. When used to saccharify starch, the optimum pH range is pH 2.8 - 5.5. pH inactivation occurs at a pH below pH 2.5 or above pH 5.5 SEBamyl GL is stable over a temperature range of 30 – 65oC. For saccharifications longer than 24 hours, the optimum temperature range is 55 – 60oC. Temperature inactivation occurs at or above 75oC. Complete inactivation can be achieved by heating to 95oC for approximately 10 minutes at pH 4.5 or to 75oC for 40 minutes.

Dosage:

The optimum dosage of SEBamyl GL depends on:
 Nature of the substrate to be saccharified
 Dry substance (DS) percent of the starch substrate
 Final syrup DE, % glucose required
 Saccharification temperature and pH
 Saccharification time (typically 24 – 96 hours)
 Recommended dose: 400 – 800 mL/metric ton starch DS (2,200 lbs.)

SEBamyl® GL Liquid GlucoAmylase


13591 YORBA AVE.  CHINO, CALIFORNIA 91710  PHONE (909) 613-1660  FAX (909) 613-1663 Website: www.specialtyenzymes.com  Email: adm@specialtyenzymes.com ©Specialty Enzymes. All rights Reserved SEBamyl GL Rev. 10/10
2
Alcohol & Starch Division

Quality Specifications:
SEBamyl GL is manufactured under a quality management system consistent with International Quality System Standard ISO 9001:2000. Purity specifications comply with FAO/WHO JECFA, FCC and IFOAM recommended standards for food-grade enzymes.
Packaging:
SEBamyl GL is available in 25-kg jerry cans, 225-kg drums, 1,100-kg tote-bins, and in bulk.
Storage:
SEBamyl GL should be stored in a cool, dry place. Storage in unopened containers, at or below 5oC, helps to maintain maximum activity if stored over long periods. Under these conditions, activity loss after one year should not be more than 5 – 10%. Extended storage under adverse conditions, including high temperature (>10oC) may require the use of higher than recommended dosages.
Safety and Handling:
Liquid enzyme preparations are dust free. However, inappropriate handling may cause the formation of aerosols or dust. Avoid formation of aerosols and dust from dried out or spilled enzyme. Avoid splashing and high-pressure washing. Aerosols and dust may cause irritation when inhaled. Unnecessary contact with the product and inhalation of dust should be avoided. In case of spillage or contact with the skin or eyes, rinse affected area promptly with plenty of water. Specialty Enzymes and Biochemicals Co., provides Material Safety Data Sheets, and advice regarding the safe handling of enzymes.
8Ball,
Great info!!! I've already changed some of the temps I use for when to add enzymes based on the info you provided...thanks!!
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

Twisted Brick wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:22 pm
7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm greggn,
Yeasts used were a 50-50 blend of SafAle S-04 and SafSpirit M-1 yeasts. Also, I am measuring my pH with a scientific digital pH meter.

Twisted Brick,
The rye is a raw/unmalted rye. Adjusting pH with citric acid to lower pH and calcium hydroxide to raise pH. Mash temps process: heated water in mash tun to 190°, added SebStar HTL enzyme and mixed in unmalted rye, with mash tun temperature being 178° after all rye was mixed in, cooked rye in mash tun at between 170° to 175° for 1 hour, let mash tun temperature cool to 155°, then added the corn slurry, malted barley, and SebAmyl GL to the mixture and cooked at between 147° to 153° for at least 90 minutes. At the end of the cook, starch conversion to sugar was confirmed with the iodine test.

I saw that you had initially responded to my post with a number of initial questions, but then I lost your post and couldn’t find it back. I tried to remember as many questions as I could from your first post, but I may have missed some??

Any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated…
My apologies, 7B7. I am in the middle of two copper projects for members and ran inside to edit that post and deleted it by mistake.

The commercial guys recommend not to ever add enzymes to water, thinking that enzymes are fragile and need the most hospitable environment (pH and temp) to be pitched into. I'm not certain that you adjusted your pH up and down (per your detail) but many distillers feel that grain alone naturally lowers pH to within a workable range. Obviously, all distillers' water chemistry is different.

I have had good results from rye glucan rests and echo Mars' recommendation of SEBTL for rye. Here are a couple of links that may be of interest:

Working with Specialty Enzymes SEBstar HTL and SEBamyl GL--Best Practices?

Understanding Impact of Commercial Enzymes
Twisted Brick,
It’s all good…no worries… With regard to the addition of enzymes, I always try to hit the mid-range for recommended PH and temperature, although I have changed some of my temperature marks for when to add enzymes based on some of the information provided in this post thread. Also, if I failed to mention PH adjustments in my details, sorry about that, but per each step of the process where necessary, I use citric acid to lower the PH and calcium hydroxide to raise the PH.

Thanks for the 2 links with regards to best practices for specialty enzymes. Haven’t had a chance to look over the webpages/info, but they are on my to do list…
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

howie wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:04 pm enzyme companies state a temp range for their products, maybe SEBamyl enzymes also have a sweet spot regarding temp.(probably in the middle of the stated range)
howie,
Great point with the "sweet spot". I always try to hit the middle of the stated range with all my PH's and enzymes. But, I've learnt, via this post thread, that some of the temps for enzyme addition I've been using might be wrong...
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

StillerBoy wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:25 pm
7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 am I’m fermenting on the grain (75% rye, 15% corn, 10% pale ale malt), I
Mashing a 75% raw rye (or malted really does not matter), it would of benefited had the SEBamyl GL been added at the right temp (130*F or lower) and had some SeBflo TL been used at (140*F or lower) which helps the breakdown of beta-glucans to simple sugars and also assist in promoting liquefaction and reduces viscosity..

That would of allow the fermenation to drop some, as what you have now, it's probably finished fermenting.. check it with a pen light to see if you see any yeast activity (little bubbles)..

Mars
Mars,
Thanks for the info!! I’ll need to try that next time with the SEBamyl GL at 130°F or lower and the SEBflo TL at 140° or lower.

Is it your opinion that SEBamyl GL should be added at that 130°F or lower mark regardless of mash bill types…majority corn, rye, wheat, oat, or malted barley mash bills??

There is a very very small amount of yeast activity with the little bubbles…

This mash was more or less kind of screwed up from the beginning… I tried to cook the mash like I did all my corn mashes, but some rye grain particles somehow got through my 400 µm mesh liner in my mash tun, with the rye particles burning to the heating element in the bottom. So, I started a new batch, and tried to do everything more or less in reverse, with heating the water all the way up to 190°, turning the heat off to the mash tun, then mixing the rye in with the heat off and trying to catch all the temps on the way down through cool down.

Maybe another question for all would be: Any ideas or thoughts on how some of the rye grain particles could’ve gotten through my 400 µm filter and burnt to my heating element?? Beta glucans??
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by StillerBoy »

7bruno7 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:21 pm Is it your opinion that SEBamyl GL should be added at that 130°F or lower mark regardless of mash bill types…majority corn, rye, wheat, oat, or malted barley mash bills??
That's the temp I used for SEBanyl GL as it's just down from it's optimum temp of 130 - 140*F, but has an effective range of 86 - 149*F, and it's always gave me very good results.. the same for SEBflo TL as it has a wide optimum range of 86 - 140*F and I always introduce it at the up range and let it work down..
7bruno7 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:21 pm There is a very very small amount of yeast activity with the little bubbles…
The slow little bubbles is a indication of the ferment is in it's later stage.. giving it a degas stir will great assist it in finishing and clearing at that stage.. the degas stir should be done slowly from side to side for 30 to 60 seconds..

As to your other issue, since I don't mash in the same manner as you do, I can't be of help..

Mars
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by OtisT »

7bruno7 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:21 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:25 pm
7bruno7 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 am I’m fermenting on the grain (75% rye, 15% corn, 10% pale ale malt), I
Mashing a 75% raw rye (or malted really does not matter), it would of benefited had the SEBamyl GL been added at the right temp (130*F or lower) and had some SeBflo TL been used at (140*F or lower) which helps the breakdown of beta-glucans to simple sugars and also assist in promoting liquefaction and reduces viscosity..

That would of allow the fermenation to drop some, as what you have now, it's probably finished fermenting.. check it with a pen light to see if you see any yeast activity (little bubbles)..

Mars
Mars,
Thanks for the info!! I’ll need to try that next time with the SEBamyl GL at 130°F or lower and the SEBflo TL at 140° or lower.

Is it your opinion that SEBamyl GL should be added at that 130°F or lower mark regardless of mash bill types…majority corn, rye, wheat, oat, or malted barley mash bills??

There is a very very small amount of yeast activity with the little bubbles…

This mash was more or less kind of screwed up from the beginning… I tried to cook the mash like I did all my corn mashes, but some rye grain particles somehow got through my 400 µm mesh liner in my mash tun, with the rye particles burning to the heating element in the bottom. So, I started a new batch, and tried to do everything more or less in reverse, with heating the water all the way up to 190°, turning the heat off to the mash tun, then mixing the rye in with the heat off and trying to catch all the temps on the way down through cool down.

Maybe another question for all would be: Any ideas or thoughts on how some of the rye grain particles could’ve gotten through my 400 µm filter and burnt to my heating element?? Beta glucans??
Scorching/filtering
I feel your pain 7bruno7. I’ve only done it a few times and I have found working with mostly rye is hard. I’ve scorched more than one recipe with rye in it. I don’t think it’s the particles through your filter that leads to a scorch as much as the snot like gel the liquid becomes. (Maybe the snot is from small particles?) Even with enzymes, that liquid is thicker than other washes. I had to switch to steam stripping rye to avoid the scorch.

Fermenting to completion
My all rye also took forever to ferment. I used enzymes because it was all unmalted rye. Like your experience, the ferment went as expected for a few days, a little slow, then it appeared to stop, no bubble activity and no apparent drop in SG. I was expecting around 8 % ABV and I was reading only 6%. I let it set and settle for 5 weeks and was pleasantly surprised to end up with about 10% ABV. That was a big surprise. I did some research afterward and found that rye has a lot more carbs in it than wheat or corn, which I believe explains why I ended with with a 10% ferment from only 2 lb of grain per gallon. I can’t explain why it took so long to ferment out, but next rye I do I am planning for a long ferment.

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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by Ben »

There really isn't a need to take rye up to the temps you are starting at. Rye gels between 135 and 158, you were out of range on it. The barley should have enough DP to conver the rye without enzymes, but as mentioned above sebamyl GL could take it further, or just some powdered enzyme.

When I do rye I do a step mash, and since you are gelling your corn seperately I think it would work for you. Try this:
Rye and malt to 110-115, rest for 30. This is a beta glucanase rest and will help break down the sticky in the rye
Add your corn and enough hot water to bring your mash temp to hit 145-148 (use a mash temp calc), add enzymes. Hold at this range for 90 mins, starch test, go longer if required.

The 153 you used is well into the alpha enzyme range and is probably giving you some unfermentables.
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by HDNB »

Ben wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:04 am There really isn't a need to take rye up to the temps you are starting at. Rye gels between 135 and 158, you were out of range on it. The barley should have enough DP to conver the rye without enzymes, but as mentioned above sebamyl GL could take it further, or just some powdered enzyme.

When I do rye I do a step mash, and since you are gelling your corn seperately I think it would work for you. Try this:
Rye and malt to 110-115, rest for 30. This is a beta glucanase rest and will help break down the sticky in the rye
Add your corn and enough hot water to bring your mash temp to hit 145-148 (use a mash temp calc), add enzymes. Hold at this range for 90 mins, starch test, go longer if required.

The 153 you used is well into the alpha enzyme range and is probably giving you some unfermentables.
what he sez ^^^

i make alot of rye. it's a bitch. i never go over 155* with it usually 150* is the aim, if i don't get distracted while heating. one thing i have had problems with is the mash getting too hot during the intial ferment. the first 24 hours i have to cool it or i never get a good finish. never pitch until you are below 100.
if i keep the mash below 100* (i aim for below 95*) and use some citric acid before adding GL, it does better.
i'm using straight malt, i use a bit of enzyme just to help along
i add grain from cold water and gradually heat to 150 over the course of about 3 hours, i don't actually "stop and hold 115*" for a beta glucan rest but it really takes an hour or so to get to 115 so i'm happy with that.

out of many, many ferments i've only had a handful finish dry. usually they are 1.01x ....it's slimy almost always.

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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by Ben »

I didn't take good notes on my FGs from ryes, but I don't remember them finishing dry either. I use ale yeasts and usually run 3-5 weeks on a ferment, nothing really finishes below 1.007 for me. I wonder if using something like wlp099 or wy3711 that is STA1 positive (secretes glucoamylase, meaning it will ferment just about anything dry) would help this. Side by side testing is in order.
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 8Ball »

7bruno7 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:06 pm
Did you correct the refractometer reading for alcohol present? The ferment is most likely finished if you did not:

FG Brix WRI Alcohol Present:
Original Gravity: 17.03 Brix
FG - (Brix WRI): 6.32 Brix
Wort Correction Factor: 1.00

OG - Corrected:
17.03 °P, 1.070
FG - Corrected:
-0.09 °P, 1.000
Alcohol By Volume:
9.15%
[/quote]

8Ball,
I don't think I'm smart enough to understand the above info/quote...lol??
[/quote]

This might help you:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by StillerBoy »

Ben wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:04 am but as mentioned above sebamyl GL could take it further, or just some powdered enzyme.
Not just the GL, but also use the TL, that's the one that remove the ray mash's snot gel from it, and they do provide cleaner finish, and clear lots better also..

I've done many raw and malted raw 80% bills, with never an issue with mashing or fermenting.. but I mill the grains to a coarse flour, mash it at 180*F with the HTL, plus the other enzymes at their temp addition, pitch and ferment at 85*F, and they all finish dry within 4 - 5 days..

Not fermenting at a stable temp is the major cause of a fermentation taking for ever to finish, especially if the temp drop down below the pitching temp, even by only a degree or so, somehow some things happen and the yeast never behavior the same after even it the temp is raised, and that has been my experience a cross the board, be sugar washes or AG..

Pitching at 95*F, knowing that the temp will raise to 100 or more, is just disrespect for the yeast by not providing a healthy environment..

The TL is the one to use went mashing with rye, and I've never even tried to doing one without it, especially after reading all the issues people has stated with mashing rye..

Mars
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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by Twisted Brick »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:38 am
Not just the GL, but also use the TL, that's the one that remove the ray mash's snot gel from it, and they do provide cleaner finish, and clear lots better also..

The TL is the one to use went mashing with rye, and I've never even tried to doing one without it, especially after reading all the issues people has stated with mashing rye..

Mars
FYI: I'm finding it difficult to source TL in small quantities, but, there is also VISCOSEB L.

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Re: Rye Fermentation Stall

Post by 7bruno7 »

8Ball wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:35 am
7bruno7 wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:06 pm
Did you correct the refractometer reading for alcohol present? The ferment is most likely finished if you did not:

FG Brix WRI Alcohol Present:
Original Gravity: 17.03 Brix
FG - (Brix WRI): 6.32 Brix
Wort Correction Factor: 1.00

OG - Corrected:
17.03 °P, 1.070
FG - Corrected:
-0.09 °P, 1.000
Alcohol By Volume:
9.15%
8Ball,
I don't think I'm smart enough to understand the above info/quote...lol??
[/quote]

This might help you:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/
[/quote]
Thanks 8Ball...
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