Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
spurgeon
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 am

Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by spurgeon »

Does anyone have experince using ascorbic acid powder to dechlorinate? Any pros/cons?

After searching through the forums and the wiki, I find plenty of info about water conditioning, including https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... nditioning and ascorbic acid isn't mentioned (though some of those links are broken).

There's some of talk about using campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite), but in my experience with beer brewing, they can cause sulfur aromas and by design cause issues with the rate of function of the yeast.

I do find it mentioned in passing used as an ingredient (and anti-cholrine function) in some recipes, like viewtopic.php?p=7178968&hilit=ascorbic#p7178968, but there's no discussion I can find about pros or cons.

Here's some info from the US Dept of Agriculture stating that very little ascorbic acid can be used to quickly decholorinate:
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/html/052 ... 31301.html
Says 1g ascorbic acid will neutralize 1 milligram per liter of chlorine per 100 gallons of water.
I'm pretty sure the legal limit is something like 4mg/liter chlorine in the US.

It also lowers the pH of the highly alkaline water I have access to here.
Very little seems to almost immediately remove the chlorine/chloromine aroma from my tap water.
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by greggn »

spurgeon wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:38 am

There's some of talk about using campden tablets (sodium metabisulfite), but in my experience with beer brewing, they can cause sulfur aromas and by design cause issues with the rate of function of the yeast.

Per Wikipedia ...


Campden tablets (potassium or sodium metabisulfite)[1] are a sulfur-based product that is used primarily to sterilize wine, cider and in beer making to kill bacteria and to inhibit the growth of most wild yeast: this product is also used to eliminate both free chlorine and the more stable form, chloramine, from water solutions (e.g., drinking water from municipal sources). Campden tablets allow the amateur brewer to easily measure small quantities of sodium metabisulfite, so it can be used to protect against wild yeast and bacteria without affecting flavour. Untreated cider must frequently suffers from acetobacter contamination causing vinegar spoilage. Yeasts are resistant to the tablets but the acetobacter are easily killed off, hence treatment is important in cider production.

Typical use is one crushed Campden tablet per US gallon (3.8 L) of must or wort. This dosage contributes 67 ppm sulfur dioxide to the wort but the level of active sulfur dioxide diminishes rapidly as it reacts with chlorine and chloramine, and with aldehydes (particularly in wine). Therefore, the concentration of free sulfur dioxide is greatly diminished by the time the beer or wine is consumed. However, when used only for the purpose of dechlorinating tap water before brewing, one tablet will effectively treat 20 US gallons (75 L) of water.[2]
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
spurgeon
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by spurgeon »

Thanks for the reply.
I'm aware of the uses of campden for dechlorination and am interested in other options that don't add sulfites or occasional residual sulfur aromas.
My question is about using ascorbic acid.
User avatar
Salt Must Flow
Distiller
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:06 pm
Location: Wuhan China (Novel Coronavirus Laboratory)

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Instead of adding materials to neutralize chlorine, why not just filter it out. You could link filter housings containing one sediment filter and one or even two carbon filters. Water enters the sediment filter, through the carbon filter/filters out to a flow restrictor and straight to a reservoir ideally with a small float valve. You could easily filter at a rate of 150 gallons per day, likely much higher. This would be great not only for fermentation, but also dilution and home drinking water. Could even put a splitter and run a line to the ice maker in a freezer. I use a Reverse Osmosis unit, but a dechlorinator filter would be very good too.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by Demy »

Surely you know it but leaving the water in the air reduces the chlorine, if heated it works better. This is what I have read from various sources (including homebrewing sites)
spurgeon
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by spurgeon »

Demy wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:20 am Surely you know it but leaving the water in the air reduces the chlorine, if heated it works better.
Thanks, yes I do this to water my houseplants :)
It does reduce it but does leave it open to some contamination, takes time, and takes up space.
I was hoping for a faster yet still economical approach.
I just don't know if using vitamin c has any downsides.
Upsides seem to be that it's rather inexpensive, works almost immediately, reduces pH, and in my case, I only need 2g per 100 gallons.
spurgeon
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by spurgeon »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:31 am Instead of adding materials to neutralize chlorine, why not just filter it out. You could link filter housings containing one sediment filter and one or even two carbon filters. Water enters the sediment filter, through the carbon filter/filters out to a flow restrictor and straight to a reservoir ideally with a small float valve. You could easily filter at a rate of 150 gallons per day, likely much higher. This would be great not only for fermentation, but also dilution and home drinking water. Could even put a splitter and run a line to the ice maker in a freezer. I use a Reverse Osmosis unit, but a dechlorinator filter would be very good too.
Well, there's a few hundred reasons...a dollar for every one. And I assume ongoing costs.
Considering one that I could use for fermenting as well as for the entire home, though, had not occurred to me and is likely worth looking into--thanks for the idea!
User avatar
Salt Must Flow
Distiller
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:06 pm
Location: Wuhan China (Novel Coronavirus Laboratory)

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by Salt Must Flow »

spurgeon wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:49 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:31 am Instead of adding materials to neutralize chlorine, why not just filter it out. You could link filter housings containing one sediment filter and one or even two carbon filters. Water enters the sediment filter, through the carbon filter/filters out to a flow restrictor and straight to a reservoir ideally with a small float valve. You could easily filter at a rate of 150 gallons per day, likely much higher. This would be great not only for fermentation, but also dilution and home drinking water. Could even put a splitter and run a line to the ice maker in a freezer. I use a Reverse Osmosis unit, but a dechlorinator filter would be very good too.
Well, there's a few hundred reasons...a dollar for every one. And I assume ongoing costs.
Considering one that I could use for fermenting as well as for the entire home, though, had not occurred to me and is likely worth looking into--thanks for the idea!
A few hundred? I recently bought a RO unit for less than $100 free shipping. What I was recommending is only a sediment filter and 1 or 2 carbon filters. That's nowhere near the number of components in comparison to an RO unit.

What I was recommending could be plumbed to a small faucet in the kitchen as well as to the freezer. Easily disconnected, portable to use for brewing, mashing, distilling. I wasn't recommending a whole house unit. A whole house unit would typically filter the water that leads to the toilets, bath tub, showers, all faucets and typically to all exterior spigots.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I have a few wine bottles with fairly loose stopper I leave out on my kitchen window - I use this for proofing down my daily ration of likker... Four bottles and a FIFO protocol keeps them nicely dechlorinated...

I also have a couple whole house filter housings that I use to filter wine and in my bottle sprayer/sanitation bucket - I think they're about $35 and you can get different filters - a few in a row with increasingly finer filtering and AC at the end would be good for water on the house supply..

Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
contrahead
Trainee
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:43 pm
Location: Southwest

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by contrahead »

greggn wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:42 am
Per Wikipedia ...

.....Campden tablets allow the amateur brewer to easily measure small quantities of sodium metabisulfite, so it can be used to protect against wild yeast and bacteria without affecting flavour........... Yeasts are resistant to the tablets but the acetobacter are easily killed off, hence treatment is important in cider production....................Typical use is one crushed Campden tablet per US gallon (3.8 L) of must or wort.
This is not good information, at least it's not put togeather well. Nor is it consistent.

In one sentence the text says: (Campden tablets) “can be used to protect against (kill) wild yeast”. And then in a following sentence says: “Yeast are resistant to the tablets”...

Which is it? Does the metabisulfide somehow know which yeasts are wild and which ones came out of a package?

Nor are Campden tablets small or easily measurable. At least mine weren't. They were fat and powerful; too powerful. Two of them (potassium metabisulfite tablets / not sodium in my case) absolutely murdered a 5 gallon (19 L) batch of apricot pulp for me one time. A complete loss. But here Wikipedia claims that one Campden tablet is appropriate for one gallon of wort. That's 5 tablets for 19 L of wort – and that ain't gonna work.

I've used a powdered form of 'sodium bisulfite' successfully now for about 30 years. Both as a sterilizing solution and to add 'sulfur dioxide' to wine. The instructions on the label say ¼ teaspoon to 5 gallons wine, provides 75 ppm of sulfur dioxide. This label also claims: “This level is sufficient to kill wild yeast, mold spores, and most bacteria. Will not affect taste or cultured wine yeast if used as directed”.

The sodium bisulfite does not distinguish between the “cultured yeast” from inside a yeast package, and the same or cousin saccharomyces cerevisiae taking up residence on the skin of a plum or grape. What happens in practice is that once juiced and inside a fermentation carboy - everything is poisoned or stunned by the SO2. But after about 24 hrs that sulfur is expected to be bound up and dissipated, before the desired yeasts are ever introduced. Thats if you use a modest amount of sulfur, rather than too much.

In my limited experience the potassium Campden tablet is a different animal than sodium bisulfite, and should be used very cautiously. The amounts mentioned in the Wikipedia reference – seem far too high for wine.
Omnia mea mecum porto
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by StillerBoy »

contrahead wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:13 pm Nor are Campden tablets small or easily measurable. At least mine weren't. They were fat and powerful; too powerful. Two of them (potassium metabisulfite tablets / not sodium in my case) absolutely murdered a 5 gallon (19 L) batch of apricot pulp for me one time. A complete loss. But here Wikipedia claims that one Campden tablet is appropriate for one gallon of wort. That's 5 tablets for 19 L of wort – and that ain't gonna work.
The amount stated (5 tablets) is certainly way over board..

I use potassium metabisulfite in powder form, a little less than a 1/4 teaspoon for a 6.5 gal wash, and I've never had an issue with yeast fermentation or sulfite smell or taste in the likker I've made over the yrs, as our municipal water is highly chlorinated..

Have never tried ascorbic acid..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by NZChris »

Rather than adding more chemicals, I aerate and dechlorinate my make up water by putting it out in the sun with an aquarium airstone in it for at least half an hour.
User avatar
8Ball
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1401
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:12 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by 8Ball »

I fill my 10G mash pot with 7.5G of city water. Add a pinch of ascorbic acid, a little epsom salts, a teaspoon or so of food grade gypsum and let it sit for while I’m gathering everything for the next mash or wash I’m doing. I then adjust my starting pH with citric acid and/or lime, as needed. Never have an issue. I recently bought a pound of pure ascorbic acid on Amazon for $12 delivered. Use it daily myself as an alleged immunity boost too.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
User avatar
Renhoekk
Swill Maker
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:43 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by Renhoekk »

Have you experimented with *not* treating it? You might not need to go the extra mile if your tap water is <4mg/L chlorine.

My tap water has about 3mg of chlorine per litre. I’ve never made special moves to treat it and have not had any problems with fermentations or weird flavours in distillate, including neutrals. My AG ferments with a specialised whisky yeast will finish in 3 days, so it’s not even slowing me down. Heating the water to make a mash or dissolve sugars will drive out chlorine anyway, as it’s highly volatile.
Last edited by Renhoekk on Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
SaltyStaves
Distiller
Posts: 1049
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by SaltyStaves »

I've used Ascorbic acid when in a hurry to hydrate some yeast or make a starter. Solves the chlorine problem and lowers the pH into the range I need. Its a crutch when I need it.

Chloramine isn't a problem I have with my local water supply, but Ascorbic acid seem to be the best way to deal with that.
spurgeon
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by spurgeon »

SaltyStaves wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:18 pm I've used Ascorbic acid when in a hurry to hydrate some yeast or make a starter. Solves the chlorine problem and lowers the pH into the range I need. Its a crutch when I need it.

Chloramine isn't a problem I have with my local water supply, but Ascorbic acid seem to be the best way to deal with that.
I'm struggling to find any downsides to using it at appropriate dosages and moderates the pH. Can you elaborate more on it being a crutch? As opposed to what?
spurgeon
Novice
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 am

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by spurgeon »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:06 am A few hundred? I recently bought a RO unit for less than $100 free shipping. What I was recommending is only a sediment filter and 1 or 2 carbon filters. That's nowhere near the number of components in comparison to an RO unit.

What I was recommending could be plumbed to a small faucet in the kitchen as well as to the freezer. Easily disconnected, portable to use for brewing, mashing, distilling. I wasn't recommending a whole house unit. A whole house unit would typically filter the water that leads to the toilets, bath tub, showers, all faucets and typically to all exterior spigots.
I've never seen a R/O for under $100, I'll definitely look at that. When I said whole house, I was picturing a in-line filter primarily for all the indoor faucets. Either way, I appreciate the suggestions and will look into it at those prices!
User avatar
SaltyStaves
Distiller
Posts: 1049
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:18 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Ascorbic acid (vitamin c) and chlorine

Post by SaltyStaves »

spurgeon wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:14 am Can you elaborate more on it being a crutch? As opposed to what?
I generally don't use tap water for starters or yeast hydration, but if I don't have any free sky water or spring water on-hand, I'll use the tap water. That is when Ascorbic acid is most beneficial to me.
Post Reply