Sugar head experiment

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Steve Broady
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Sugar head experiment

Post by Steve Broady »

Right off the bat, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place for this post, so please feel free to move it if not.

I'm running an experiment because I have a question that popped into my head. This is inspired by a few things, most notably the StillIt safety net series. If you're not familiar with them, he's making whiskey but using a roughly 50/50 all grain mash/sugar, the theory being that even if you screw up the starch conversion and mashing completely, you'll still get something tasty. I've also seen several posts and videos where someone would make a sugar head using the spent grain, adding more sugar, and fermenting again. I've done the same, and had generally excellent results.

Based on that, I see four distinct products that I'd like to compare:
1. All grain, the "holy grail" as I see it of whiskey techniques.
2. Sugar head made using spent grain and backset from #1.
3. 50/50 grain mash and sugar.
4. 50/50 blend of #s 1&2.

My reasoning is that naturally the AG should be the most flavorful, have the best mouth feel, etc. After squeezing all the beer out of all that grain, it just seems wasteful to throw it away, so I'd logically make a sugar head next. How do those two compare? I don't know. How would they compare to running both concurrently in the form of a "safety net?" And how would that safety net compare to a blend of the AG and sugar head? Again, I don't know. The ingredients should be the same in each case, so any difference would be the result of the process. It would be a bit of an undertaking to set up that experiment in a controlled fashion, especially in a home distillation setting. As far as I can tell, nobody else seems to have done so, or at least they didn't document and publish it if they did.

To that end, I developed a recipe that I felt was within my limited skill set and self-imposed budget. I have 6 gallon fermenters and an 8 gallon still, so I decided to run a total of six fermentations. AG, sugar head, AG, sugar head, and two "safety net," in that order. To the best of my ability, the sugar should equal the sugars derived from the grain, so that each batch produces roughly the same ABV. Any sugar used would be inverted prior to going into the fermenter. Each fermentation would get stripped and saved until I have two matching, after which I'll do the spirit run, make whatever cuts that particular product calls for, and then save in glass until the whole thing is done. Finally, I should be able to compare my theoretical best of each version to see how much of a difference each one makes, and if there's a best way for me to economize, etc.

Right now, I'm fermenting the second AG. It's going to take me a little while to finish this experiment, because I don't get a lot of time to play with the still, between work and home life and work. If anyone is interested, I'll be sure to keep people updated. And I'd love to hear any comments, and especially to hear if anyone else has ever tried anything similar.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by still_stirrin »

Newby ramblings…..”what if’s”….pre-occupy.

Experiments are great. And educational. At some point, you’ll realize what you like to make and what you like to drink. Then you’ll focus on your processes to hone your skills. And I’ll bet that as you gain experience, you’ll reduce the amount of refined sugar you use. I’m just sayin’.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by StillerBoy »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:23 am Newby ramblings…..”what if’s”….pre-occupy.
Ain't that so true...
Steve Broady wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:10 am As far as I can tell, nobody else seems to have done so, or at least they didn't document and publish it if they did.
Yeah it's been done, it's not talked about much cause it ends up being of little value, other than an experiment in experiencing, but there are better ways of using one's time..

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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Steve Broady »

Fair enough. So what you’re saying is I’m wasting my time?

I definitely get the drift toward using less sugar. My eventual goal is to be able to make a top notch product done the right way. However, I’m also a self proclaimed cheap bastard, and I hate the idea of throwing away potential flavor. Hence my curiosity about the relative merits of AG vs. various stretched versions.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by NZChris »

I quite often do a sugar wash on the trub, but the product isn't intended for consumption as whiskey.

There are quite a few spirits that are better made with a lightly flavored base spirit than with neutral. If you don't have a good reflux still head for turning AG into GNS or vodka, you can cheat by using narrow cut sugar washes done on your spent grains.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Sleighahh »

Full disclosure - newbie to distilling as well. But I've been messing with UJSSM-style stuff, partial mash+sugar and AG over the last year and a bit. The parital mashes I've done have been about 70% fermentables from grain and the rest from refined sugar. Mainly been experimenting from the point of view of efficiency for the amount of effort I need put in to get a product I like.
My reasoning is that naturally the AG should be the most flavorful, have the best mouth feel, etc.
Definitely. Also none of the sugar spikiness. I expected the increase in flavour but not having that sugar flavour/aroma really increased my whiskey to something else.
After squeezing all the beer out of all that grain, it just seems wasteful to throw it away, so I'd logically make a sugar head next. How do those two compare?
While you can squeeze a bit more out, I don't think it's wasteful to throw away as such - you've already got pretty much all the goodness out. When I've done it I've ended up with a very light flavoured spirit. For sure it's drinkable, but I'd take a UJSSM-style over it any day. If I do this in the future it will be to take advantage of the massive pitch of yeast and reflux it for neutral, or like NZChris says, a lightly flavoured base spirit.

My spent grain ends up on the compost pile, and ends up feeding the garden, so not a complete waste.
How do those two compare? I don't know. How would they compare to running both concurrently in the form of a "safety net?"
Hard to put absolute numbers on it but from my point of view, in terms of 'level' of flavour, if all grain is 10/10, and neutral is 0/10, then I'd put a gumballhead at 2/10, UJSSM at 5/10 and a partial mash at 7/10.
And how would that safety net compare to a blend of the AG and sugar head? Again, I don't know.
I mean, you could, but I think once you taste that AG you won't want to mix it with anything.

Not to piss on the parade though. Do the experiment. I think you'll learn a lot - even if it's just confirming what the experienced guys here say. I know I've learned a lot messing with different types of mashes/washes.

My feelings are that I'm better coming up with ways to have a more efficient all grain mash, ie bigger batches, finding ways to reduce the amount of time put in, etc. Partial mash is kinda close quality-wise, but if I'm already mashing then I'm probably better off doing an all grain as it's really not a whole lot more effort. UJSSM is great for building up stock but you need to get a few gens in to really get it going - I want to experiment with recipes so having generation after generation of the same thing hasn't really flicked my switch. As above, gumballheads will give a decent lightly flavoured spirit but don't make the most interesting sipping whiskey.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Steve Broady »

I hadn’t thought about using the sugar head as a lightly flavored neutral. That intrigues me. All I have at the moment is a pot still. I’ve made some decently successful 80% neutral a couple times, my wife likes the stuff, but I’m more critical of myself and feel that it could be better. A spent whiskey mash that I already know tastes good seems like a good way to achieve that. I don’t drink a ton of neutral, but I do want some occasionally for various things.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by NZChris »

For most of my thirty odd years of distilling, I've only had a pot still. Now that another distiller has dragged me down to his local scrapyard and made me buy the copper that he needed to build me a nice Bokakob, I do have the ability to make very neutral spirit. I'm sure that he intended that I use it more than I do. The bulk of my liquors that supposedly require neutral are made using pot stilled, narrow cut, matching spirit, the Bokakob mostly being used for cleaning up heads and tails.

There are many 'recipes' doing the rounds of the net that call for your best neutral, but a bit of research often finds that the base spirit traditionally used wasn't neutral at all and still had a hint of the grain or grape it was derived from.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by howie »

i've seen the articles of using spent grains as well.
i looked at the mash efficiency of 78%, does that mean there's 22% left in the grain?
i've done a few experiments, some i will not repeat, some i will.
using the spent grains from an XPA beer, i will not repeat.
spent grains from irish red ale... jury is out.
using the spent grains from an Oatmeal stout whiskey, promising, time will tell.
other experiments remain in a dark cupboard, to be tested as they age.
one thing, when using spent grains, i have only been using angel yellow, which seems to rip all the remaining taste/alcohol out very well.
is cornflake whiskey a sugarhead as such, basically sugar and a box of cornflakes. :)
it's been around for 10 years and has a 34 page thread.
i was never impressed with that at first, but i have a 15 month old bottle and it's growing on me.
has anybody else tried angel yellow on 'spent' grains?
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by tjsc5f »

Steve Broady wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:10 am Based on that, I see four distinct products that I'd like to compare:
1. All grain, the "holy grail" as I see it of whiskey techniques.
2. Sugar head made using spent grain and backset from #1.
3. 50/50 grain mash and sugar.
4. 50/50 blend of #s 1&2.
I have been thinking about doing a similar thing, but had the intensions of fermenting and stripping #1 off grain, while fermenting and stripping #3 on grain.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Steve Broady »

tjsc5f wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:05 am I have been thinking about doing a similar thing, but had the intensions of fermenting and stripping #1 off grain, while fermenting and stripping #3 on grain.
I’m curious, what’s the logic behind the different techniques?
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by tjsc5f »

Steve Broady wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:42 am I’m curious, what’s the logic behind the different techniques?
My thought is that fermenting and stripping on the grain would add more grain flavor, potentially offsetting the flavor lost by using sugar. Kind of a max flavor for minimum effort scenario.

My last several batches have been bourbon style AG fermented and stripped on grain. Mashing 15gal batches is my least favorite part of the process. High temp liquid enzymes have helped a lot, but still not an enjoyable process for me.

I've never fermented an AG off the grain, only reason I wanted to give that a try and get a reference point.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by rubberduck71 »

I use Yellow Label almost exclusively now, mostly because I'm a lazy bastard.

And since I'm a stingy bastard, I always do a sugarhead on the spent grains. However, I recently switched over to unprocessed/raw sugar (sometimes called turbinado or demerera here in U.S.). Then just the regular nutrients, gypsum, epsom, pH management & it kicks right off w/o any addt'l yeast.

The A/G version makes a tasty drop according to my whiskey snob friends, and IMO the sugarheads, while slightly "bity-er" or "janky-er," still are quite acceptable to me to sip over ice (my preferred method). It helps keep my paws off the A/G for proper aging.

Good info above from experienced people, but what's most important is that if it tastes good to you, then keep doing it. Definitely experiment to find what that is, but don't get shamed out of making decent product out of reused grains.

If it helps, I typically do 10 lbs grain/5 gal water in 6 gal fermenters (i.e. 2 lbs/gal) & then 8 lbs inverted sugar on the spent grains. CROW, Irish, GW Rye, 100% corn meal... all good stuff.

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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by bilgriss »

I think experimenting is fun, and even if it clearly results in a lesser product, you'll learn something.

The sugarhead on spent grain thing has been done by many. You can age and produce a decent sipper, not quite as good as the original. Check out Jimbo's Gumballhead recipe. There's definitely potential.

I suspect mixing things between batches will just result in a doctored up version of one or the other, and not produce anything particularly unique. But it might be interesting.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Deplorable »

By all means, this isn't meant to yuck your yum, but I think your time could be better spent focusing on perfecting your process on what you know you like to drink.
I cut my teeth on Sweet Feed. By the time I got through a bag of feed I had just under 3 gallons of spirits for aging. I was never happy with the bite of the raw sugar until I got to the last gallon that had 16 months or longer for the oak and time to work things out.
Then I moved on to AG. Aside from a single sugarhead I made off the CROW AG run I did, I've not done another. I doubt I ever will. There is still about a liter of that spirit in the cupboard that I'm watching to see how age plays on it. Even the one SSS ferment I did didn't wow me. I can't get past that refined sugar "bite".
All that to say I don't have a liking for sugar heads and focus solely on improving my AG processes to get the most out of the grains.
I like full flavored whiskeys, and smooth vodka. My focus now is on 3 base spirits. A single malt, a wheated bourbon, and a more traditional bourbon bill of corn, barley, and rye. Heads and tails are collected and saved together in a keg for a reflux run to make AG vodka.
Using this approach I think I get everything from the grains thats worth taking.
I get cleaning solvents, a nice selection of brown spirits, good vodka and compost for the garden. I think that's pretty efficient use of the grains.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Bradster68 »

I guess Steve's not alone. I'm retired and got lots of time to play around. I justgot 50 lbs of granola mix for free so couldn't pass it up. I read and know all about the sugarbite. Rolled oats and chocolate mix. So I really didn't waste any good grains on this experiment. Made about 50 gallons of wash. Has a very distinct taste of chocolate and whiskyish. ( with the obvious bite)
I plan on storing it away for a few years and see what some charred oak and time do to it. I'm only out some yeast and time so what the hell.
But now I'm back at my AG adventure.
Just couldn't pass up the experiment.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Steve Broady »

I can’t wait to hear how that turns out, Bradster. I mean, I suppose we have to wait, but I’ll be curious.

For me, I decided to take the advice of the fine folks here. I made the straight AG whiskey/‘d the sugarhead from that. I decided to cancel the 50/50 version, instead making another AG from the same recipe. I’ll use that to compare different techniques on the same recipe. And then make a sugarhead from it as well, just because I can and it’ll make something tasty for sipping right away.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

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Steve Broady wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:52 pm I can’t wait to hear how that turns out, Bradster. I mean, I suppose we have to wait, but I’ll be curious.

For me, I decided to take the advice of the fine folks here. I made the straight AG whiskey/‘d the sugarhead from that. I decided to cancel the 50/50 version, instead making another AG from the same recipe. I’ll use that to compare different techniques on the same recipe. And then make a sugarhead from it as well, just because I can and it’ll make something tasty for sipping right away.
No I totally agree with the guys here also. AG is the way to go, nothing beats a sip of whiskey or bourbon. And the occasional rum of course. :thumbup:
But sometimes my curiosity gets the best of me and this is what happens.
See ya in 3yrs. :roll:
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by juana_b »

I enjoy sugarheads on my bourbon ferments with a couple pints of dunder from a molasses run.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by shadylane »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:40 pm
still_stirrin wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:23 am Newby ramblings…..”what if’s”….pre-occupy.
Ain't that so true...
My 2 cents worth.

This isn't Newby ramblings…what if’s...pre-occupy
The more info based on "true" experience the better. :ewink:
Just guessing, I'd vote for #1, #3, #4 and #2 in that order.

I see four distinct products that I'd like to compare:
1. All grain, the "holy grail" as I see it of whiskey techniques.
2. Sugar head made using spent grain and backset from #1.
3. 50/50 grain mash and sugar.
4. 50/50 blend of #s 1&2.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Bradster68 »

juana_b wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:01 pm I enjoy sugarheads on my bourbon ferments with a couple pints of dunder from a molasses run.
Hmmmm. I'll definitely be giving this a try.
Iv got a 5th generation pit smelling awsome.
Thanks 🍻
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by bluefish_dist »

Let me throw in a few $.01, semantics, but not all grain, not whiskey. Instead it’s moonshine. Sugar does have flavor, it’s just not grain or as strong. Even bleached white sugar makes rum.

You can make good sugar heads by mixing grain wort and sugar. Used such a base for my vodka. About half barley and half sugar. Even as a vodka the barley flavor came over. Easy to make as barley is easy mash, unlike corn. An easy step above the cfw below and a good primer for moving to an all grain recipe.

A second option for this is the tried and true cornflake whiskey. Sugar and processed corn. Makes a decent corn moonshine and is good aged. Again, no mashing required. Just mix and ferment.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Steve Broady »

bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:15 pm ..semantics, but not all grain, not whiskey.
I probably failed to be clear when describing my plan. What I’m calling all grain whiskey is, as far as I know and understand it, exactly that. A fairly simple Bourbon grain bill of corn, makes barley, and flaked rye. No sugar, so the only fermentables are whatever sugars I can convert from starch in the grain. The sugar head is a separate product, made by adding sugar and some of the backset from the AG back into the select grain, along with water, nutrients, etc. I know that isn’t whiskey and I don’t call it that. As you said, it’s whiskey flavored moonshine.
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Bradster68 »

bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:15 pm Let me throw in a few $.01, semantics, but not all grain, not whiskey. Instead it’s moonshine. Sugar does have flavor, it’s just not grain or as strong. Even bleached white sugar makes rum.

You can make good sugar heads by mixing grain wort and sugar. Used such a base for my vodka. About half barley and half sugar. Even as a vodka the barley flavor came over. Easy to make as barley is easy mash, unlike corn. An easy step above the cfw below and a good primer for moving to an all grain recipe.

A second option for this is the tried and true cornflake whiskey. Sugar and processed corn. Makes a decent corn moonshine and is good aged. Again, no mashing required. Just mix and ferment.
I think it's like most here say. It depends on what you like. We all have different tastes and it up to us to play around and find out what's best for each person. I'm sure there are recipes that far surpass others. The wiki says a corn and sugar wash makes a great lick. And I'm also thinking there are lots more combinations to be thrown together to please each person.
And I'm not even close to be done experimenting.
It's fun.so let's all have fun and compare notes. Together we may make a new discovery.
Cheers to all who experiment. 🍻
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Re: Sugar head experiment

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Steve Broady wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:44 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:15 pm ..semantics, but not all grain, not whiskey.
I probably failed to be clear when describing my plan. What I’m calling all grain whiskey is, as far as I know and understand it, exactly that. A fairly simple Bourbon grain bill of corn, makes barley, and flaked rye. No sugar, so the only fermentables are whatever sugars I can convert from starch in the grain. The sugar head is a separate product, made by adding sugar and some of the backset from the AG back into the select grain, along with water, nutrients, etc. I know that isn’t whiskey and I don’t call it that. As you said, it’s whiskey flavored moonshine.
Agreed. I don't waste anything. After myallgrains I always make a Gumball. Let em sit and at the worst you serve it to my mother in law :D
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Re: Sugar head experiment

Post by Bradster68 »

shadylane wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:27 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:40 pm
still_stirrin wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:23 am Newby ramblings…..”what if’s”….pre-occupy.
Ain't that so true...
My 2 cents worth.

This isn't Newby ramblings…what if’s...pre-occupy
The more info based on "true" experience the better. :ewink:
Just guessing, I'd vote for #1, #3, #4 and #2 in that order.

I see four distinct products that I'd like to compare:
1. All grain, the "holy grail" as I see it of whiskey techniques.
2. Sugar head made using spent grain and backset from #1.
3. 50/50 grain mash and sugar.
4. 50/50 blend of #s 1&2.
I'm on it shady. I'll be playing around and posting my results🍻
I drink so much now,on the back of my license it's a list of organs I need.
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