Speed, smearing & plated columns

[Ratbastrd]

Sorry for the blah blah, so 1 plate is the answer! Getting a nice stream now, no heavy boil on the plate and sweet tasting likker out. 600ml in and the heads flavor is gone already.

[Stonecutter]

I’m digging the copper boiler and that onion head Rat. You’ve got a sweet setup. I’d love to make a few Brandy runs with that thing!

[Saltbush Bill]

My still uses both a reflux condenser (dephlegmator)

The two words are not interchangeable in my opinion.......a reflux condencer , condenses all vapour so that it falls back down to the packing in a column as reflux.
A dephlegmator is used to partially condense a multi component vapour stream, it lets the more volatile components of the vapour stream pass while at the same time sending the less volatile components back down the column as reflux.

[Ratbastrd]

Ok, need some more help.

A) Definitely have vapor not being condensed
B) Bigger issue. So as my pot heats up, in order to create enough pressure to fill plate and run, temps quickly get up to 195'. Once temps get that hot, it seems I'm getting tails elements sneaking into my product. Smell/taste of old books. If I crank up the reflux condenser I can clean it up and push it back down but just reappears as temps rise again.

How do I force the process at a lower temp while inducing reflux and keeping pressure up? I need to be able to get at and extract as much of the product as possible below 195', when other compounds are clearly evaporating and mucking up the distillate. Wondering if the

Thanks

[Ratbastrd]

My still uses both a reflux condenser (dephlegmator)

The two words are not interchangeable in my opinion.......a reflux condencer , condenses all vapour so that it falls back down to the packing in a column as reflux.
A dephlegmator is used to partially condense a multi component vapour stream, it lets the more volatile components of the vapour stream pass while at the same time sending the less volatile components back down the column as reflux.

Edit: To be clear I'm only running a dephlegmator (creating reflux above plates) and product condenser. The dephleg (mine at least) pushes nearly all condensate back down with even the smallest amount of coolant. I think it is part of my problem candidly, it's too much cooling for the volume of distillate I'm running at the temps I want to run at. Is that clearer or am I still missing something?

[Ratbastrd]

I’m digging the copper boiler and that onion head Rat. You’ve got a sweet setup. I’d love to make a few Brandy runs with that thing!

Thanks, it's proving to be a bit more challenging then I thought.

[Stonecutter]

You need to put tape around ALL of your thermometers.
When I switch from wines and Sugar washers to AG I swear I can smell scorch in the distillate. I have to ask my wife and she hasn’t steered me wrong yet. I once shut down mid run because I was convinced. When I checked it out, the element was clean. Sometimes our senses can play tricks on us.
I think you just need to stop worrying so much about collecting speeds and temp probes and just let your rig run how it wants. Focus on staking the plates and collecting in a consistent manner and nothing else. You may have to take it back to square one to understand what’s going on. I.e. take small cuts throughout the whole run.
You could very well have a bad seal on that plate. You really have to make sure that the plate has a good seal all the way around or it won’t load properly. Ask me how I know… You’ve got a lot going on with that rig between passive reflux of the onion head and your controlled active reflux with the plates. You’re swapping plates out and running by temperatures like a mad scientist. Ease off the throttle a bit Dr. Frankenstein One step at a time friend.

[Ratbastrd]

You need to put tape around ALL of your thermometers.
When I switch from wines and Sugar washers to AG I swear I can smell scorch in the distillate. I have to ask my wife and she hasn’t steered me wrong yet. I once shut down mid run because I was convinced. When I checked it out, the element was clean. Sometimes our senses can play tricks on us.
I think you just need to stop worrying so much about collecting speeds and temp probes and just let your rig run how it wants. Focus on staking the plates and collecting in a consistent manner and nothing else. You may have to take it back to square one to understand what’s going on. I.e. take small cuts throughout the whole run.
You could very well have a bad seal on that plate. You really have to make sure that the plate has a good seal all the way around or it won’t load properly. Ask me how I know… You’ve got a lot going on with that rig between passive reflux of the onion head and your controlled active reflux with the plates. You’re swapping plates out and running by temperatures like a mad scientist. Ease off the throttle a bit Dr. Frankenstein One step at a time friend.

Well $hitttt. Know your right but really want to run this batch right. The cider was out of this world. Don't want to f it up. Im not experienced enough to be confident but think I'm definitely evaporating off something I don't want in my product over a certain temp. Keeps happening at exactly same point, batch after batch. Wondering if this is why brandy makers use such complicated contraptions.

Just turned of the dephleg all together, gonna let it run out.

Thanks @Stonecutter, know I'm pressing a bit too hard here.

[Yummyrum]

Ratbastrd

Hate to be the fly in the ointment that has been giving you a whole heap of good advice ….. but after rotating a whole bunch if your pics , and being exposed to a whole lot if damn fine copper porn , I was blinded by the brilliant blue silicone gaskets that adorn you site glass module and so I have to give you the sermon about how we do not approve of the use of Silicone or any other synthetics on HD forum other than Teflon ( PTFE ) . It is in our rules .

Ultimately its your choice what you want to drink , but we strongly suggest anything that comes un contact with vapour or liquid in your still be Teflon or wrapped in teflon tape to prevent potential leaching .

Incidentally , its this Rule iff’n you haven’t read it before .

They are at the bottom the page if you scroll down to “required reading”

Safety first and foremost! These forums take a very strong negative view on the use of plastics and synthetics in distilling. It simply is not safe to use these during any part of the distillation process with the exception of HPDE buckets which are acceptable for fermentation. There simply are too many types of plastics and a lack of reliable information for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked. #

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm running at the temps I want to run at.

Running by temp???????

You need to put tape around ALL of your thermometers.

Agree , that would be a damn good start.

If your having trouble getting the right take off speed and the dephleg is returning to much reflux , then maybe you need a more precise method of controlling water flow, are you using a needle valve ?

[Bee]

My condenser gets icy cold, figured colder the better, I also pump from bottom up, so it's likely causing some reflux on its own. Condenser has 12 separate tubes inside so lots of surface area. I've thought about making a wormcoil at some point. For the very reasons you mention.

You have a De-Luxe condenser there! I would not waste time on a PITA worm coil.
If you are getting any uncondensed vapor through that, it's because the PC (product condenser) is too hot. But you say it's cold.
I don't think you are getting any loose vapor. I think it's just the normal smells of running. For instance, I know when product is about to start because I get a sweet smell. There's nothing to there, it'd be like trying to condense a fart.

[bluefish_dist]

As one who used temperature to control the process, (NOT make cuts) the only way to lower temperature is to make a more pure product. You can reduce power, increase reflux, increase boiler abv, or increase the number of plates. Nothing else will lower temperature at the still head. There is no magic temperature to get a certain component to come across. The temperature at the still head is simply the abv of output. No different than looking at a parrot.

My working theory is your impurities ie anything not alcohol are your flavors. So the more pure you make your output the less flavor. Making cuts let’s you keep the flavors you like and discard the ones you don’t. Also some flavors need time to become finished and melded. This is why I moved to making lower abv barrel aged spirits. Fewer plates, lower abv, more flavor, needs more time in the barrel. Want a white, less flavor, higher abv, little or no time in a barrel.

[Ben]

Shouldn't be vapor coming out of the pc, and your takeoff shouldn't be "too hot to taste", takeoff should be cool to end of bath water warm.

Maybe try putting the helmet above the plates or the dephleg, that will allow you to get some passive reflux from it, may not be enough to load the plate.

Your takeoff rate seems a little quick, maybe try lowering the heat input, that would solve the excess reflux, too hot PC, vapor escape, indiscernible takeoff flavors.

[Ratbastrd]

Ratbastrd

Hate to be the fly in the ointment that has been giving you a whole heap of good advice ….. but after rotating a whole bunch if your pics , and being exposed to a whole lot if damn fine copper porn , I was blinded by the brilliant blue silicone gaskets that adorn you site glass module and so I have to give you the sermon about how we do not approve of the use of Silicone or any other synthetics on HD forum other than Teflon ( PTFE ) . It is in our rules .

Ultimately its your choice what you want to drink , but we strongly suggest anything that comes un contact with vapour or liquid in your still be Teflon or wrapped in teflon tape to prevent potential leaching .

Incidentally , its this Rule iff’n you haven’t read it before .

They are at the bottom the page if you scroll down to “required reading”

Safety first and foremost! These forums take a very strong negative view on the use of plastics and synthetics in distilling. It simply is not safe to use these during any part of the distillation process with the exception of HPDE buckets which are acceptable for fermentation. There simply are too many types of plastics and a lack of reliable information for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked. #

Yea I'm aware, and I am concerned as well. It's on my list of to-doos. Thank you for pointing it out, good reminder to take care of it.

Out of curiosity, I found a manf of teflon gaskets at one point, but that was precovid. Are you aware of any recommended vendors for gaskets?

Thanks!

[Ratbastrd]

Running by temp???????
If your having trouble getting the right take off speed and the dephleg is returning to much reflux , then maybe you need a more precise method of controlling water flow, are you using a needle valve ?

Yea, let me explain my reasoning, recognizing that I'm as novice as they get at this and maybe on the wrong track.

Little background: I recently retired and live in west county Sonoma Ca. My wife is head of marketing for the oldest and only remaining apple cannery in California. We have many friends and family in the wine industry, including several who have branched off into spirits. Some very successfully.

I joined my wife on a business trip a few years ago. We spent quite a bit of time in Normandy. I really fell in love with Calvados and some of the other fruit spirits produced in that area. One of the smaller local producers we met, spent some time with me and walked me through the process. He produced everything on a "Charentais". He talked extensively about speed and temp particularly in the first stage of the 2 part run. I can't recall the names but there are apparently a wide range of congeners that are inherent with apples, pears etc, most are good and want to be captured, some however are musty or dirty smelling similar to tails. The fowl smelling congeners occur at certain temps just prior to what would be considered tails. They avoid introducing those, by running at very precise temps for determined periods of time.

I've been trying to recreate as much of that as possible. Thus my focus on temps.

Back to the dephlegmator. Yea I am using a needle valve, but realized on yesterdays run it was largely irrelevant. Because I was trying to run low and slow, I was restricting power to the heating element to under 1k watts. To allow vapor passthrough I essentially had to cut off cooling water to the dephleg to allow vapors to pass through. I suspect the relatively short distance between the top of dephleg, through the elbow (top of column) down to the product condenser (PC) is so short, the product condenser itself may be creating enough reflux at top of column making the dephleg somewhat redundant?

Next time, I think I'm going to experiment with moving the plate around relative to the hat, to see what I get. I may also add some pipe between the hat and elbow, as well as elbow and PC to give the spirits more time to condense before the PC. Essentially making the still entirely passive.

[Ratbastrd]

My condenser gets icy cold, figured colder the better, I also pump from bottom up, so it's likely causing some reflux on its own. Condenser has 12 separate tubes inside so lots of surface area. I've thought about making a wormcoil at some point. For the very reasons you mention.

You have a De-Luxe condenser there! I would not waste time on a PITA worm coil.
If you are getting any uncondensed vapor through that, it's because the PC (product condenser) is too hot. But you say it's cold.
I don't think you are getting any loose vapor. I think it's just the normal smells of running. For instance, I know when product is about to start because I get a sweet smell. There's nothing to there, it'd be like trying to condense a fart.

Yea, the PC is typically sweating on the outside and cold to the touch. Seems there is a tiny amount of vapor, held a mirror to the pagoda and noticed short and light bursts of fogging on the mirror.

[Ratbastrd]

As one who used temperature to control the process, (NOT make cuts) the only way to lower temperature is to make a more pure product. You can reduce power, increase reflux, increase boiler abv, or increase the number of plates. Nothing else will lower temperature at the still head. There is no magic temperature to get a certain component to come across. The temperature at the still head is simply the abv of output. No different than looking at a parrot.

My working theory is your impurities ie anything not alcohol are your flavors. So the more pure you make your output the less flavor. Making cuts let’s you keep the flavors you like and discard the ones you don’t. Also some flavors need time to become finished and melded. This is why I moved to making lower abv barrel aged spirits. Fewer plates, lower abv, more flavor, needs more time in the barrel. Want a white, less flavor, higher abv, little or no time in a barrel.

Valid point. I may in the end need to dump the plates altogether and double distill. I may also explore a thumper or similar to more closely approximate the repass element of the Alembic stills the good brandy makers use.

[Ratbastrd]

Revisiting what I produced yesterday. Not nearly as bad as I thought. Slight wiffs of that smell I don't like on what I'm assuming will be late hearts but not nearly as bad as yesterday. Not much apple coming through unfortunately, at least not at high proof.

Curious how people feel about their product at high proof, right off the still? I've learned to appreciate high proof alcohol and don't mind the burn. While lacking bright apple flavors and smells, short of the heads, the product is very sweet and not rough at all. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Thanks again all, the feedback is invaluable!

[Ben]

Still proof isn't a good gauge, and can nuke your taste buds, numb your olfactory senses especially when running plates or multiple runs, if it's strong enough permanent damage can be a thing. Read this, maybe give it a shot viewtopic.php?t=68702

If I am questioning a particular jar I will cut a sample down to 20% or even lower, I find it much easier to detect certain things I don't care for.

[Ratbastrd]

Still proof isn't a good gauge, and can nuke your taste buds, numb your olfactory senses especially when running plates or multiple runs, if it's strong enough permanent damage can be a thing. Read this, maybe give it a shot viewtopic.php?t=68702

If I am questioning a particular jar I will cut a sample down to 20% or even lower, I find it much easier to detect certain things I don't care for.

Thanks, I read that thread a ways back and adopted a similar system for blending. IE: picking a jar that I think is center of hearts and measure abv of that jar, then using syringe to make sure my samples are all relatively similar abv. Proofing down below 40% is something I never considered, do you find that you spot off flavors frequently enough that it is worth the extra effort?

The one thing I do trust in this process is my sensory perception, and I generally like higher proof spirit. Proofing down below say 50% (my personal sweet spot) never occured to me.

When I'm running I tend to not taste too much, I try to use my nose as much as possible. I'll periodically run my finger under stream and taste from there or feel for viscosity rubbing between fingers. Because I've only ever run fruit spirits, generally apple or pear, I'm accustomed to the particular smell of heads & especially tails, or lack thereof.

[bluefish_dist]

Running by temp???????
If your having trouble getting the right take off speed and the dephleg is returning to much reflux , then maybe you need a more precise method of controlling water flow, are you using a needle valve ?

I joined my wife on a business trip a few years ago. We spent quite a bit of time in Normandy. I really fell in love with Calvados and some of the other fruit spirits produced in that area. One of the smaller local producers we met, spent some time with me and walked me through the process. He produced everything on a "Charentais". He talked extensively about speed and temp particularly in the first stage of the 2 part run. I can't recall the names but there are apparently a wide range of congeners that are inherent with apples, pears etc, most are good and want to be captured, some however are musty or dirty smelling similar to tails. The fowl smelling congeners occur at certain temps just prior to what would be considered tails. They avoid introducing those, by running at very precise temps for determined periods of time.

I've been trying to recreate as much of that as possible. Thus my focus on temps.

They may use particular temps that are specific to their process, but I almost guarantee that your process will different enough that they are useless. As I said before temps are simply a measurement of alcohol content. If you run a pot still and have run many runs with the same wort, you may be able to determine a cut point based on temperature for that run. But I can assure you I can produce a whole run at different temps, from 164 to 180 deg (6200ft temps) and all the cuts will come across at the same temp when using a column still.

A batch still separates fractions by time, from lightest to heaviest components. This happens to correspond to what we call fores, heads, hearts, and tails. We can separate fractions more by using more plates or smear them together for better flavor by using fewer, with a pot still (effectively a single plate) providing the most smearing. Imho the trick is figuring out how clean a spirit you want/need and then adjusting your still to provide that level of separation. Within a run you then need to make your cuts to determine what parts (fractions) to keep. After enough runs I could predict very closely which jar would be the cuts simply by volume. I expect most commercial distillers can do the same.

[Ratbastrd]

I understand the point regarding temperature variation by altitude or process (pot still/column still).

What I'm confused by is how time plays into this. I had assumed based my reading and discussion, (CM column still) that the various volitile elements boiled off at different temps and then effectively condensed/evaporated again and again plate by plate creating layers of different compounds plate by plate, with the lighter and more volatile condensing on top (which is also lower temp then plate below?) How does time play into this?

When you say "time" do you mean "cycles" IE top plate in 3 plate column has effectively distilled through 3+1 cycles?

PS thanks for helping me, I clearly interpreted what I read differently

[bluefish_dist]

Time comes into play due to running a batch, ie a fixed volume. For a column or even a pot still the lightest components boil more quickly due to needing less energy to transition from liquid to vapor, but all components boil, so your vapor is a mix of components. With a column the lightest components are at the top, with the heaviest at the bottom. Here is the time component, as you remove the lightest component, the next lightest is now the lightest in the column and is at the top. This causes you to separate components by time. Lightest first, finally heaviest last. The reason tails finally get to the top and come over, is they are the lightest thing left in the still at that point in time. If you run fewer plates or too fast it smears and you get more of a mix in your output.

Now for a continuous feed column, you can simply separate by boiling point height and each plate is heavier (hotter) as you go down. This is because you are boiling the same thing all the time, unlike a batch where the boiler components are continuously changing.

Because everything is mixed in the boiler, you don’t boil the 170 deg component, then the 175, then the 180. It doesn’t work that way. You boil a mix of those components, making your vapor a mix. If it worked by boiling point a pot still could make very pure products. It doesn’t and they can’t.

When I ran vodka, I still got heads, hearts and tails even though the whole run was at roughly 164 deg (depended on the day). Tails might be slightly warmer at 164.1 and heads slightly cooler at 163.8. Note that I would get greater variation from weather 163.5 to 164.5 than from heads to tails in a single run.

[NormandieStill]

I joined my wife on a business trip a few years ago. We spent quite a bit of time in Normandy. I really fell in love with Calvados and some of the other fruit spirits produced in that area. One of the smaller local producers we met, spent some time with me and walked me through the process. He produced everything on a "Charentais". He talked extensively about speed and temp particularly in the first stage of the 2 part run. I can't recall the names but there are apparently a wide range of congeners that are inherent with apples, pears etc, most are good and want to be captured, some however are musty or dirty smelling similar to tails. The fowl smelling congeners occur at certain temps just prior to what would be considered tails. They avoid introducing those, by running at very precise temps for determined periods of time.

As someone who lives in Normandy let me provide a little insight into the above. Most distilleries are family affairs that have been running for generations. While they're probably no longer using hand-cranked presses they are otherwise unchanged since great-great-great....great-grandpa set up the business. And since training is in-house and father-to-son they're still using the same set of instructions. On a large scale and with barrel aging they can survive the variance in the cuts. Some years just need a little more time in the barrel.

A lot of these people don't necessarily understand what they're doing and why. But their product keeps selling so it's all good.

At the hobbiest scale, if you want repeatability then the you need everything to stay the same. No various in wash abv, yeast propagation, yeast variety, fermentation temperature... And so on. Since that's a little hard to achieve, the solution is to make cuts by taste so that you can account for the differences.

[Ben]

Proofing down below 40% is something I never considered, do you find that you spot off flavors frequently enough that it is worth the extra effort?

I also bottle and enjoy most of my drinks at barrel strength.

I too do most of my off-the-still cutting with smell, and usually only taste when I think I am transitioning between heads and hearts, and hearts to tails, saving the sobriety for tasting the blend options. I find cutting down to 20% is very effective for finding flaws with the nose. It also has helped train me to spot the flaws more effectively, I have a much better olfactory catalog to reference because my nose is actually smelling what the beverage has to offer, not just getting confused by booziness.

It is really hard, especially with just nosing to push past the alcohol burn, it's even more difficult when the product is lively off the still. Bringing the proof way down allows your nose a chance to smell what's going on without the chemical interference. Also lets you taste and swallow more often without going off your senses on a long run.

I also will run my palm under the product take off, then rub my hands together quickly until the alcohol is just gone, then cup my hands and take a big whiff, this seems to amplify what's going on in the product and is a really quick way to see where the run is and what flavor is coming off (I am sure this technique has a name, I saw it somewhere and adopted it). It is really effective with oily stuff like oats or corn, but works for fruit too.

As bluefish mentioned, with frequent stilling you will be able to tell by volume approximately when a change is going to come... but it requires practice and consistency. Change your original gravity from 1.065 to 1.085 and your expected volumes will be off.

[squigglefunk]

I may in the end need to dump the plates altogether and double distill.

where have I heard this before?

[Ratbastrd]

Because everything is mixed in the boiler, you don’t boil the 170 deg component, then the 175, then the 180. It doesn’t work that way. You boil a mix of those components, making your vapor a mix. If it worked by boiling point a pot still could make very pure products. It doesn’t and they can’t.

Ahah, said the blind man!

I was working under the belief that the various compounds boil off at different discreet temps and work their way up the column, and that by keeping the temp lower longer, I would capture MORE (of the total percentage of the specific compounds I wanted, from the combined abv). And that the plates would then help separate those compounds for me, allowing me to cut fairly cleanly those compounds I wanted from those I don't.

Also, is there water vapor (albeit small) entering the mix at temps lower then 212f?

I ask the later because it is the smell of the wash after I've fully completed my run, that I am smell mid to later part of the way through what I would consider the hearts. I'm trying to figure out if that smell is oils, water or some remnant of the yeast that I am picking up. It is very "tailsy" smell, like old wet/moldy books which comes and goes, but gets stronger as the run progresses. Eliminating that smell, and capturing more of the faint fruit elements mixed in with the heads that I am working towards.

[Ratbastrd]

where have I heard this before?

right? Not there yet though.

I'm going to screw around with the one plate system a bit more. Thinking about what @Ben mentioned, and pulling the dephleg out all together, flipping the hat and putting it above the plate (maybe add some packing in the elbow at the top if needed). Effectively turn it into a hybrid pot still.

The problem I have which I'm trying to work around is the size and orientation of the heating element in my boiler. I'm using 7 gal carboys for my ferments, which are generally different fruit or blends. I like to run them separately so that I can control the blend of my final product. Unless I run 15+ gal stripping runs, I wont have enough product to cover the heating element for my spirit runs. So I either combine washes, or add a plate to allow for single runs.

If I do opt to pot distill, I'm reading about augment my low wines with straight fruit juice to give enough volume and add some congeners and flavor back in.

[squigglefunk]

Also, is there water vapor (albeit small) entering the mix at temps lower then 212f?

if there wasn't your alcohol would be 200 proof coming off the still eh?

[bluefish_dist]

Also, is there water vapor (albeit small) entering the mix at temps lower then 212f?

if there wasn't your alcohol would be 200 proof coming off the still eh?

Well said squiggle. The whole idea you can boil off individual components is a common misconception and once you understand that doesn’t happen and that it’s a mix of components in the vapor, it’s easier to understand what’s going on in a still.

I found smell alone was a poor way to make cuts. Taste was best. We would blend down with 1 tsp of water and 3/4 tsp of spirit before tasting. Gets the abv into a safer range and easier to taste impurities. It’s pretty amazing that I could get most people making cuts in a few min by blending down and then tasting from a run broken down into a minimum of 12 samples. I would start heads cut about 30% in and work back until tasting heads. Tails was 1-2 jars from the end depending on where I stopped the still. The trick to making great instead of good is time in a barrel. Even if you were off by a jar, more time will fix it.