Speed, smearing & plated columns

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Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Hi all, new member here. Amazing content and knowledge posted here, much appreciated.

So I've read through all the recommended sections, including a bunch of threads on this specific topic, namely @MtRainier viewtopic.php?p=7540136.

My new setup: 55L boiler w/ single 5500w heating element & variable controller. Still is modular and can run either as pot still or bolt on 4" bubble plates & dephlegmator for CM setup. I've about 10 runs through it.

Product is all brandy so far, been making hard ciders for years (apple, pear, blackberry ciders) generally fermenting w/S04 and long cool ferments over the winter months. The ciders are really good, problem is I hate cider, so brandy it is...

Observations:

Still: The still is VERY easy to run. Once the plates are full, a few minor adjustments to heat or cooling flow = manageable changes to take off with full control.

1. All of the brandies I've run have a very distinct tails flavors appearing pretty early in my runs. Too early IMO
2. Similar to MtRainier, I've been running at 2400w, I'm taking off +/- 1L hr.
3. Similar to MtRainier, I've experimented with heat/speed, reflux, as well as managing my cuts to keep the tails completely separate.
3. Comparing my notes with the various other threads I've read, my sense is I'm heating up the wash too fast and smearing in tails very early.
4. My assumption has been that the plates would clean this up, allowing me to run fast and make cleaner cuts? That has not proven out.
5. I have tried choking things off at the first sign of tails and letting the reflux run for a bit to condense, then opening back up and taking off at similar rates. This works well, but seems counterintuitive and less efficient.

Questions:

1. If the intent is capture all the best flavor by separating and cutting good from bad (In one run), is slower better, even with a CM still? Particularly during the initial heating stage?
2. Does it makes sense to choke things off at various points allowing the reflux to condense sections, or keep it steady as MtRainier discovered later on?
3. What are disadvantages of slowing things down other then time it takes to run a wash?
4. I understand that old school brandy makers use a very different still design, is there something inherent with brandies that require a different process to capture best flavors? I've tasted some really good cheap (white) brandies distilled using functionally similar stills as my own.

Thanks all!
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by squigglefunk »

I would use the pot still setup and double distill (stripping/spirit run) rather than use a 4 plate column and trying to do a one and done run.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by LWTCS »

Your assumption that the plates would clean up your premature tails funk is wrong as you have observed. With a plated column you can certainly boost your abv by running heavier reflux ratios, but once you drag the funk up into the plates on a short spirit column it's not going to go away.

This by the way is why short plated columns are very popular for making brandies. It's just that the run speeds (and vapor speed) needs to be painfully slow compared to some other spirits.
The goal being to drag the fruit notes onto the plates and allow forthcoming vapor to mingle with the fruit notes trapped on the plates. Have you ever wondered why you may have seen an 18" short column plopped onto a relatively small 750L kettle at those famous Eastern block distilleries that make the fruit spirits? Slow vapor speed.

I would experiment with reduced heat input as well as minimizing the RR to get the results you are looking for.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

LWTCS wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:18 pm Your assumption that the plates would clean up your premature tails funk is wrong as you have observed. With a plated column you can certainly boost your abv by running heavier reflux ratios, but once you drag the funk up into the plates on a short spirit column it's not going to go away.

This by the way is why short plated columns are very popular for making brandies. It's just that the run speeds (and vapor speed) needs to be painfully slow compared to some other spirits.
The goal being to drag the fruit notes onto the plates and allow forthcoming vapor to mingle with the fruit notes trapped on the plates. Have you ever wondered why you may have seen an 18" short column plopped onto a relatively small 750L kettle at those famous Eastern block distilleries that make the fruit spirits? Slow vapor speed.

I would experiment with reduced heat input as well as minimizing the RR to get the results you are looking for.
I've seriously read every thread I could find on this topic, you are the first person to acknowledge what I have experienced, super helpful! Coincidently, this is why I moved away from pure pot still mode. Again, far too easy to over heat and run times take forevvvveerrrrrrr. Guess this is why the Calvados distillers use preheaters.

When you say RR, I'm assuming you mean reflux ratio?

The plates/column I'm using is modular so I can reduce or add plates as needed. My experience is that the column runs very stable assuming a minimum level of fluid/reflux. Not sure where that line is but reducing the reflux rate too far is likely to see the plates simply drain. I'll play with it though to see what I can find.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

squigglefunk wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:50 am I would use the pot still setup and double distill (stripping/spirit run) rather than use a 4 plate column and trying to do a one and done run.
Yea, I've tried that many times. It works, but takes forevvvveerrrr and then some. Same problem, run it too hot, even on stripping run, lose all flavor. Thanks though.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by MoonBreath »

Brandies should be 1 or 2 plates for the flavor and stretched out run you're looking for..More plates, more abv and less total volume for the run.
I'd suggest 1 plate run, build you a jar from the center and blend a tsp of tails, and maybe the very end of heads for reference and a drink..Pour the rest of the single plate run into a fresh charge of brandy wash and run it..Single plate. Ifn not your preference to do 2 runs, then I suggest a 6-8 wash thru 2 plates.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Stonecutter »

Ratbastrd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:21 pm
squigglefunk wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:50 am I would use the pot still setup and double distill (stripping/spirit run) rather than use a 4 plate column and trying to do a one and done run.
Yea, I've tried that many times. It works, but takes forevvvveerrrr and then some. Same problem, run it too hot, even on stripping run, lose all flavor. Thanks though.
If you’re running too hot on your spirit run then turn the damn thing down.
Sometimes the best stuff comes from patience and diligence. It sounds to me like you want to be able to run fast, not smear, and keep all the flavor
Shit man! Me too :lol:
Running too hot on a strip doesn’t make any sense unless you’re pushing vapor or puking.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by bluefish_dist »

What is your abv look like vs time of the run? Is it flat or slowly decreasing? Imho 2400w on a 4” is slow. I push way faster than that, but I hold an abv for the whole run by slowly increasing reflux ratio. Are you going for something drinkable white or planning on some aging?
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Stonecutter wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:51 pm If you’re running too hot on your spirit run then turn the damn thing down.
Sometimes the best stuff comes from patience and diligence. It sounds to me like you want to be able to run fast, not smear, and keep all the flavor
Shit man! Me too :lol:
Running too hot on a strip doesn’t make any sense unless you’re pushing vapor or puking.
:lol: I thought I had it turned down, though I'll admit my wife has been raggin on me about this for years.

There's some good points being made here, and at a minimum suggests lower temps and less reflux until I can get handle on the quality and cuts. Have never had a still puke (yet) and I keep a nose and wet finger on the vapor. There's always a bit of vapor but not enough to worry about IMO.

Really trying to avoid going back to pot still mode. I figured that 3 plates was a too many, and anticipated falling back to 1 or 2 at some point.
bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:56 pm What is your abv look like vs time of the run? Is it flat or slowly decreasing? Imho 2400w on a 4” is slow. I push way faster than that, but I hold an abv for the whole run by slowly increasing reflux ratio. Are you going for something drinkable white or planning on some aging?


In terms of ABV, if I can trust the hydrometer, my last run (3 plates), keepers came in at 167 proof x 1000ml. Starting wash, 7 gal @ 6.5% abv. Time: just under 2 hrs. The time was screwed up though as there was a 20 minute period where I cranked up the dephleg when I started smelling tails. Let it percolate w/ no take off for about 30 minutes then pulled another 250ml that was much brighter fruit smelling, still had some watery/tail flavors on the finish. I dont' run a parrot, so I don't know the ABV of the tails section and not enough fluid to measure. Have to work on a parrot setup.

From what I've read, it seems I'm in the wheelhouse, sounds like I'm just running to fast, and fluxing too much for the product I'm trying to create.

Edit: as @Stonecutter opined, I'm looking for it all lol. Been aging what I've made over the last few years. Have a perry that I distilled 3 years ago that has been sitting in really nice french oak. It's pretty good. I tend to open it after having a few, but always in the company of good scotch or rye. It holds its weight. I've also got a few white spirits sitting on my shelf that are quite tasty. Pear lends itself well to white liquor, so that is in the cards.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Little background by the way, I live in West Co, Sonoma CA. We are surrounded by apple orchards (largely Gravenstien) along with various other varieties, Pears of various sorts and grapes out the wazooo. Plenty of distillers around me, so have some good resources. Always seemed a shame to watch so much fruit end up on the ground feeding yellowjackets.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by squigglefunk »

Ratbastrd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:21 pm
squigglefunk wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:50 am I would use the pot still setup and double distill (stripping/spirit run) rather than use a 4 plate column and trying to do a one and done run.
Yea, I've tried that many times. It works, but takes forevvvveerrrr and then some. Same problem, run it too hot, even on stripping run, lose all flavor. Thanks though.
you might be on to something
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by NormandieStill »

Ratbastrd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:21 pm Yea, I've tried that many times. It works, but takes forevvvveerrrr and then some. Same problem, run it too hot, even on stripping run, lose all flavor. Thanks though.
If you're losing that much flavour on a stripping run, then you're probably not stripping far enough. What's the abv of your collection when you stop the stripping runs? You really want to be down to 25-30%.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by MoonBreath »

And as usual I was abit off topic with my first post..I reviewed your post history and didn't see pictures of your equipment..The plates you are talking about, their spacing, gauge etc..To close, to far apart etc..5" to 7" ish I believe you will be ok..Smaller rigs closer, 4" rigs farther. Pictures are invaluable when discussing about troubleshooting anything..With gettn flavor off those plates, as soon as those plates equalize, turn back reflux to a non violent boil and broken stream thru heads. Anything after that is boiling away flavor..Remembering back, some of my most appreciated likker come from 1 single bubble plate.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Gonna run about 8 gallons of perry today, using 2 plates. Will respond with specs & pics of the still along with my notes later tonight.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:23 am
Ratbastrd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:21 pm Yea, I've tried that many times. It works, but takes forevvvveerrrr and then some. Same problem, run it too hot, even on stripping run, lose all flavor. Thanks though.
If you're losing that much flavour on a stripping run, then you're probably not stripping far enough. What's the abv of your collection when you stop the stripping runs? You really want to be down to 25-30%.
I'm not sure, as I mentioned earlier in thread, I've never set up a parrot to measure abv along the way. When stripping (pot mode), I've typically run to the point of mostly water coming out. I taste test, when it tastes like oily distilled water with just a hint of alcohol taint, I shut her down.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by NormandieStill »

Ratbastrd wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:16 am I'm not sure, as I mentioned earlier in thread, I've never set up a parrot to measure abv along the way. When stripping (pot mode), I've typically run to the point of mostly water coming out. I taste test, when it tastes like oily distilled water with just a hint of alcohol taint, I shut her down.
Don't bother with the parrot. Strip into one big pot and stick your alcometer in it. Stop when you hit your target abv. If your pot dimensions won't float your alcometer, then take samples from the pot and test those.

When I strip down to 30%, there's basically flavoured water (<1% abv) coming out for a while. During this bit you're pulling over some extra flavour and slowly lowering the abv of your distillate. Another advantage is that your final blend is likely to be closer to the proof you want going into the "barrel" (I tend to get ~60-65% from my final blend from the spirit run, which means that I don't need to add much, if any, water to get down to bourbon-level proofs.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

NormandieStill wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:15 am
Ratbastrd wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:16 am I'm not sure, as I mentioned earlier in thread, I've never set up a parrot to measure abv along the way. When stripping (pot mode), I've typically run to the point of mostly water coming out. I taste test, when it tastes like oily distilled water with just a hint of alcohol taint, I shut her down.
Don't bother with the parrot. Strip into one big pot and stick your alcometer in it. Stop when you hit your target abv. If your pot dimensions won't float your alcometer, then take samples from the pot and test those.

When I strip down to 30%, there's basically flavoured water (<1% abv) coming out for a while. During this bit you're pulling over some extra flavour and slowly lowering the abv of your distillate. Another advantage is that your final blend is likely to be closer to the proof you want going into the "barrel" (I tend to get ~60-65% from my final blend from the spirit run, which means that I don't need to add much, if any, water to get down to bourbon-level proofs.
Wow, that was probably the most educational run I've ever had. Thank you everyone for the various inputs. I'll post a longer response tomorrow, but came away with a few critical learnings.

A) Don't need three plates, might not even need two. Ran 7 gal, @ appx 12% abv. Set up a parrot to measure take off, (more on that next). Max ABV during run was identical to running three plates (167 abv)
B) Did set up a parrot which was helpful to a degree, but realized I'm much more tuned into smell, taste and feel. I ended up not using the parrot really as I knew where I wanted to cut just by taste and smell. This might be a mistake, but I will probably come back to the parrot later when I have better control of the still and understanding of running a parrot, for now it is a distraction. I also think I need to run more volume for it to really make sense. I've got the hydrometer now and I can measure what I keep to start building a baseline for what I like.
C) Big take away, using a taller CM setup and internal heating element is challenging. I think much of the trouble I'm running into is running the heater to hot and not giving the column enough time to warm up. Internal heating elements are really efficient, 2x plates + dephleg takes a long time to heat up and load up to give up the goods. By the time I started taking off, my boiler temps were already up to 195'. Turned off the dephleg early on and the plates never ran dry. In reality, I may not need the dephleg and may choose to fall back to a single plate and some packing material. I'll post some pics and specs for the still tomorrow, see what ya'll think.
D) Pulled about 1000ml of the best smelling juice I've run yet, so that was positive. Too hot to taste yet.

Night everyone...
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by still_stirrin »

Ratbastrd wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:52 pm B) Did set up a parrot which was helpful to a degree, but realized I'm much more tuned into smell, taste and feel. I ended up not using the parrot really as I knew where I wanted to cut just by taste and smell. This might be a mistake, but I will probably come back to the parrot later when I have better control of the still and understanding of running a parrot, for now it is a distraction…
Rookie mistake: trying to make cuts by %ABV. It doesn’t work that way. Sure, you can measure and record the %ABV of the collection jars, but don’t rely on the measurements to tell you “good” from “bad”. As you’ve noted, using your senses of taste and smell are better guides for what to “keep” and what to “cull”. With more experience, this will become an easy process for you.

Parrots are best used for entertainment. I’ve never seen the need to make or use one (paying attention to the still is enough entertainment for me). Some hobbyists have, and use them, but most just use them as a progress indicator, not a tool for making cuts. With experience, you may end up leaving your parrot on the shelf too.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by rubberduck71 »

I record ABV's of my cut jars during spirit runs & also use a parrot, but it's what works for me.

I use ABV as a "guide," but as has been posted hundreds of times here on HD, let your taste, smell, & feel make those determinations. I've been surprised plenty when determining where the cutoff was between heads & hearts & tails based on my assumptions looking at data. If you do the same recipe over & over, they usually start aligning, but not necessarily applicable to a different recipe.

Let experience be your guide, as SS mentions above.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 4:13 am Rookie mistake: trying to make cuts by %ABV. It doesn’t work that way. Sure, you can measure and record the %ABV of the collection jars, but don’t rely on the measurements to tell you “good” from “bad”. As you’ve noted, using your senses of taste and smell are better guides for what to “keep” and what to “cull”. With more experience, this will become an easy process for you.

Parrots are best used for entertainment. I’ve never seen the need to make or use one (paying attention to the still is enough entertainment for me). Some hobbyists have, and use them, but most just use them as a progress indicator, not a tool for making cuts. With experience, you may end up leaving your parrot on the shelf too.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by LWTCS »

The human pallet can differentiate into the PPB range.
Trust your senses as they are far more accurate than the temperature of a miscible solution.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Stonecutter »

Ratbastrd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:38 pm
There's some good points being made here, and at a minimum suggests lower temps and less reflux until I can get handle on the quality and cuts. Have never had a still puke (yet) and I keep a nose and wet finger on the vapor. There's always a bit of vapor but not enough to worry about IMO.
Saw this earlier and forgot to respond. The quantitative measurement of “a bit of vapor” is rather arbitrary. I am a novice so take my comments for what they’re worth (not much) and maybe a pro-hobbyist/MOD can step in and set me straight, but I don’t recommend letting any ethanol vapor escape your PC. Even if you’re running electric elements. It can create a safety hazard plus you’re losing some hard earned Hooch :esurprised:

I commend you…you Ratbastrd.. :ebiggrin: for rolling with the constructive criticism here. We’re all here to learn and help each other.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Stonecutter wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:32 am
Ratbastrd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:38 pm
There's some good points being made here, and at a minimum suggests lower temps and less reflux until I can get handle on the quality and cuts. Have never had a still puke (yet) and I keep a nose and wet finger on the vapor. There's always a bit of vapor but not enough to worry about IMO.
Saw this earlier and forgot to respond. The quantitative measurement of “a bit of vapor” is rather arbitrary. I am a novice so take my comments for what they’re worth (not much) and maybe a pro-hobbyist/MOD can step in and set me straight, but I don’t recommend letting any ethanol vapor escape your PC. Even if you’re running electric elements. It can create a safety hazard plus you’re losing some hard earned Hooch :esurprised:

I commend you…you Ratbastrd.. :ebiggrin: for rolling with the constructive criticism here. We’re all here to learn and help each other.
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Here is the setup

55L boiler, 5500w single internal element, 30 amp variable heat control. Tossed a whiskey helmet on today since I didn't have any packing, single 4" plate, 12" dephleg. Using an old box freezer with pond pump for cooling.
PS: someone asked about the headroom on the plates, 6" plate 2 plate. W/ 5 bubblers and downcomer.

Re vapor, other then adding a worm coil, not sure how I could condense anymore vapor? Unless I'm mistaken there needs to be some vapor passing through, otherwise I'm creating a potential bomb? Should note boiler has a check valve and everything connected by single switch on temp controller. Water hose at my feet.

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Last edited by Ratbastrd on Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

So just started a new run. 7 gal, ark black apple cider, fermented to 7.5%, added leftover pear heads/tails, along with some earlier aged brandy wanted to redo. Starting abv combined +/- 20%. Gonna run it slow again as discussed. Still wondering whether I need this big ass dephleg. I think it might be too much cooling. Will be interested to see how the run goes with just the one plate + helmet. Figure I'll get some early reflux from the helmet.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by NormandieStill »

Ratbastrd wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:06 am Re vapor, other then adding a worm coil, not sure how I could condense anymore vapor? Unless I'm mistaken there needs to be some vapor passing through, otherwise I'm creating a potential bomb? Should note boiler has a check valve and everything connected by single switch on temp controller. Water hose at my feet.
You're mistaken. As long as there is a path to the atmosphere you're not making a bomb. The vapour should make it through your plates (condensing and reboiling as necessary) and then hit your PC which will phase change it back to a liquid. If vapour is making it out of the end of your PC then your PC is undersized for the volume of vapour that you're trying to condense and you need to reduce your take-off rate. With plates, this would probably involve increasing the reflux ratio, which you may not want to do, so building or buying a larger PC would seem to be in order.

Are you sure it's vapour escaping though? I had early "problems" with what I thought was vapour, but which turned out to be CO2 off-gassing from the wash.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

NormandieStill wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:26 am
Ratbastrd wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:06 am Re vapor, other then adding a worm coil, not sure how I could condense anymore vapor? Unless I'm mistaken there needs to be some vapor passing through, otherwise I'm creating a potential bomb? Should note boiler has a check valve and everything connected by single switch on temp controller. Water hose at my feet.
Are you sure it's vapour escaping though? I had early "problems" with what I thought was vapour, but which turned out to be CO2 off-gassing from the wash.
Good question, how would I know? Smells like very ripe apple, then changes to acetone smell, then acidic mash smell. I'd assumed it was excess vapor.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Ratbastrd wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:31 am
NormandieStill wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:26 am
Ratbastrd wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:06 am Re vapor, other then adding a worm coil, not sure how I could condense anymore vapor? Unless I'm mistaken there needs to be some vapor passing through, otherwise I'm creating a potential bomb? Should note boiler has a check valve and everything connected by single switch on temp controller. Water hose at my feet.
Are you sure it's vapour escaping though? I had early "problems" with what I thought was vapour, but which turned out to be CO2 off-gassing from the wash.
Good question, how would I know? Smells like very ripe apple, then changes to acetone smell, then acidic mash smell. I'd assumed it was excess vapor.

My condenser gets icy cold, figured colder the better, I also pump from bottom up, so it's likely causing some reflux on its own. Condenser has 12 separate tubes inside so lots of surface area. I've thought about making a wormcoil at some point. For the very reasons you mention.
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by NormandieStill »

Ratbastrd wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:31 am Good question, how would I know? Smells like very ripe apple, then changes to acetone smell, then acidic mash smell. I'd assumed it was excess vapor.
The simplest, albeit most dangerous test, is to capture some in a test tube (or similar small container), then light it (some distance away from your still. You can also try holding a cold spoon or mirror in the path of the vapour. If the vapour condenses onto the spoon (like breathing onto a cold window pane) then you have vapour making it past your condenser.

When you mention the condenser is that the reflux condenser or the product condenser? I worked out that it was not vapour when I finished stripping my first batch and ran the spirit run. I got no "vapour" from the low wines. Someone here suggested that it might be CO2, cooled by the product condenser.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

Sorry product condenser. My still uses both a reflux condenser (dephlegmator) and product condenser.

Ill try freezing a spoon see what happens. Tried capturing some in a jar. Sealed it and took in other room. No flame, but strong smell
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Re: Speed, smearing & plated columns

Post by Ratbastrd »

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