Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

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Justmejohn44
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Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Ok redid the rig got new boro glass 30in at 42mm (1.65in) id. removed silicone gaskets and wrapped what I couldn't. It has 10000w SCR running 2000w coil, 13.2gal stainless tank, thermocouple and 5in adjustable thermometer, 3 lbs of tumbled quartz, 3 stainless perforated plates, 8in whiskey helmet, reflux condenser, coragated copper shotgun condenser and (got bored and needed it extended) pizza proofing parrot. Have 3 more copper bubble plates with sight glasses to add if needed but think it will be ran like this most the time or as a pot still. Constructive criticism welcomed its what I'm here for!
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Here's the rig
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by greggn »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:37 pm
Constructive criticism welcomed its what I'm here for!


What size are the pieces of quartz packing ? That I can "discern" individual pieces in that photo makes me wonder if they're too large for the diameter of your column.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by still_stirrin »

Do you have a reflux condenser above the packing? I can see the vapor take off Tee atop the column, but I don’t see the RC (which is needed to generate the reflux).

Big dial thermometer is something to look at. I just hope it doesn’t become a distraction.

The copper “ball” helmet is interesting. I’d be inclined to use it on a potstill, not a reflux column. The helmet will create a little condensation, but where it’s located won’t give you reflux from the condensation. It will affect the steady state of vapor flow, however. And that may cause some instability of the reflux within the column. It will be affected by the heat input/boil rate.

Is the product condenser a “shotgun”? Can’t really tell from your photos.

Your “collage” of still parts makes me think you’re not fully understanding how the equipment works and how it will affect the processes (of distillation). Perhaps more reading may help you with this.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by still_stirrin »

greggn wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:22 am
Justmejohn44 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:37 pm
Constructive criticism welcomed its what I'm here for!
What size are the pieces of quartz packing ? That I can "discern" individual pieces in that photo makes me wonder if they're too large for the diameter of your column.
Gregg, the quartz chunks are great insulators, just like the pyrex glass column. That will keep the vapor heat inside the column promoting good heat transfer from hot, rising vapors to cool, falling condensate. This heat transfer occurs on the surface of the packing where the vapor and condensate contact. The quartz chunks appear to be smaller than marbles and irregular in shape, again which will give plenty of surface area for the heat transfer. I think this packing is very good and will function quite efficiently. But, it requires a reflux condenser, which I don’t see above the column.

Plates may not be needed, or even function properly above the quartz packed column. I guess we’ll see…
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I'd remove the copper ball when running reflux and replace it with a Tri-Clamp spool filled with packing. That would give you a longer length of packed column.

I can't tell from the pic, but you might find that you may need a longer reflux condenser. I'd remove any plates you have and fill the column entirely with packing. Packing is more efficient in comparison to plates.

I've never used tumbled quartz, but I'd be tempted to try properly sized Lava Rock to see if it appears to work better. Lava Rock would have significantly more surface area. Don't get me wrong, if the quartz works then it works. In the past I enjoyed testing different packing and Lava Rock worked the best.

It would be interesting to see what kind of retainer you are using to support the packing in that column. The goal is to have the LEAST amount of restriction possible.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Yummyrum »

I'm guessing that the reflux condenser is a CM Deflagmator. Not my favourite , but work if you have stable pressure , stable coolant supply temp and a way to finely control the coolant flow rate . :thumbup:

My "constructive criticism " is the parrot .
Piss it off.
The volume of that thing looks like about half a jars worth . Smeary Mac Smear Smear will have field day in there .

Only stick a parrot or a measuring cylinder with an Alcometer in it when you actualy need to measure something .pour it from a jar , take a measurement , then pour it back into the jar .
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Ok the quartz is all between 1/4in and 1/2in. using perforated stainless steel plate as support.The reflux condenser is in that T It has home made copper pipe condenser and shotgun is 3 18in corrugated 3/4 corrugated pipes(more surface area less pipe) in 2in pipe. Thanks ill take the helmet out except for when in pot still set up. I'll have to try some lava rocks out if I don't get what I want from this. My original set up used stainless tube riser with copper packing but copper was a pain the ass to keep clean.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Also I have really cold creek spring water using ram pump here and 2 ball valves on each condenser on intake side control water until I can find better. And reflux condenser is working with what I had at the time and can stop all out put of vapor. Planning on making inline mini shotgun style reflux condenser when I have time. Have everything but one end cap needed to make it. Y'all need to think I came from a stoneware pot still to this lol. Everything I have done before that was other people's stills(old school wood and gas 100gal plus pot stills). All this reflux and columns are new to me. I'll pull the parrot it was made out of boredom and yes hold about 3/4 of a pint.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by StillerBoy »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:11 am the quartz is all between 1/4in and 1/2in. using perforated stainless steel plate as support.The reflux condenser is in that T It has home made copper pipe condenser and shotgun is 3 18in corrugated 3/4 corrugated pipes(more surface area less pipe) in 2in pipe.
The sizing of the quartz as packing for a 1.6" column should not be any larger than pea size, anything large creates to much space between the pieces, and reduce refluxing efficiency..

The perforated plate will cause problems with the returning distillate, causing flooding and reduce reflux ability.. a wagon wheel style of holder works the best..

And a shotgun condenser is most efficient in a vertical position, and the outlet end is not design properly for vertical use.. and the extension before the shotty is not required, creating unnecessary distance to it, and as to extending the spout from the condenser, use 3/8" copper tubing..

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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Ok good to know where can I find a wagon wheel type screen or do I need to make one?
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:21 pm Ok good to know where can I find a wagon wheel type screen or do I need to make one?
Some have drilled small holes around the base of their column, inserted copper wire through and soldered the holes.

I made a removable supports out of flattened out copper wire, soldered it together and used a Still Dragon Plate Gasket. You can make your own by Dremeling out the interior of a PTFE gasket. I put 3-4 rolls of copper mesh at the base and fill the rest with packing.

Wire Support 01.jpg
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Ok thanks I'm an electrician so I have plenty of wire laying around.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by StillerBoy »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:21 pm where can I find a wagon wheel type screen or do I need to make one
Making one is the route to go.. I have made and used two different design, both work good, the circular is easier to make.. and went done right, no scrubby are needed, one item less in restricting the flow..

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Wagon wheel packing holder
Wagon wheel packing holder
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Thats awesome thanks for the ideas I'll work on one this weekend
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Chauncey »

Your reflux condenser situation needs work. Is this supposed to be cm or vm
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Chauncey its a cm set up and I'm planing on making a shotgun style reflux condenser to mount in-between top of column and t pipe thats starts my turn and drop.

Salt and stiller I started cutting the copper and realized I had some scrap stainless 16ga sheet laying around and I just cut out 1/4in wide cross bars out of that I can place in like a wagon wheel. Then I have to use the stainless scrubby in the bottom, but thats fine with me.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Stiller I also turn the vent tube up more so it will work better in up right position it will have to have a slight angle to not puddle in the cap but should work and I'll remove the extension. I have 3/8 tube for my spout extension I'm got to us also. Thanks you guy y'all have been very helpful
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

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Justmejohn44 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:48 am Chauncey its a cm set up and I'm planing on making a shotgun style reflux condenser to mount in-between top of column and t pipe thats starts my turn and drop.
Oh ok, that makes more sense. Technically I believe that would be referred to as a Dephlegmator though it is what will be providing you your reflux.

I understand that at the moment you will be using spring water with a ram pump. I've never used a ram pump before so I'm not sure how well they work. Does it provide you with a continuous, consistent, steady flow? I tried feeding a Dephlegmator from my well water system and it was an absolute failure. Way too much fluctuation in pressure, flow rate and it made the Dephlegmator function erratically. What I ended up doing was install a Mini Float Valve near the top of a 5 gal bucket plumbed to my well water supply. I then dropped a submersible electric pond/aquarium pump into the bucket. The pump feeds water to the Dephlegmator and I send the hot water down the drain. That setup supplied a consistent water supply for the Dephlegmator. That float valve is able to supply the bucket with more water than the Dephlegmator needs in order to operate.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

I have the pump ran to 2 55 gallon drums mounted
on the back of my building on risers then overflowing back to the creek. So I have a gravity fed constant supply and pretty even pressure. As long as the creeks flowing the pump will run energy free.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by StillerBoy »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:48 am I started cutting the copper and realized I had some scrap stainless 16ga sheet laying around and I just cut out 1/4in wide cross bars out of that I can place in like a wagon wheel. Then I have to use the stainless scrubby in the bottom, but thats fine with me.
The 1/4" wide cross bar with a scrubby will not be much better than the perforated plate in my view, as there will be a lost in performance efficiency, vera a holder built using 12 g wire..

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Wagon wheel holder holding 1/4&quot; lava rocks
Wagon wheel holder holding 1/4" lava rocks
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Stillerboy may be right because scrubbers can tend to compress and cause a choke point. Scrubbers are quite finicky in my experience because if they are compressed too much they can choke and can cause flooding. It's all about how much they are compressed though. Everyone does things different, I get it and that's cool. I prefer to use rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column because they do not compress like scrubbers. I pour properly sized Lava Rock on top, it works wonderfully and zero hint of flooding. I suppose it is possible, if not likely that scrubbers would work just fine, but I'd recommend first trying at least maybe two or three teased out scrubbers that are as loose as you can place them before pouring packing like Lava Rock over top. That should help to not compress it and cause any potential choke point.

I'm NOT trying to refute anything Stillerboy said, but trying to elaborate on what he said based on my experience. He may have a different view, but I personally have no reason to suspect that a 1/4" wide cross would cause a choke point unless something was placed over top that could.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

Ok after what both of yall said I guess I'm back to making screens. The bar would work with just scrubby or mesh but not with anything with much weight if I understood y'all correctly.
Last edited by Justmejohn44 on Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:10 am Ok after what both of yall said I guess I'm back to making screens. The bar would work with just scrubby or mesh but not with anything with much weight if I understood y'all correctly.
No, screens are inherently bad because they are in itself a restriction. Packing piled over top of the screen blocks holes causing an even greater restriction. Those copper crosses shown previously are nearly 100% wide open. Copper mesh or scrubbers on top of them will work just fine as long as the scrubber/scrubbers are not compressed to the point where THEY become a restriction. That's why I was saying to perhaps use more than one scrubber, teased out and inserted as loose as reasonably possible so they don't get squished.

I use copper mesh because my still is 100% stainless. After years of using copper mesh at the base of my column I have never once experienced any restriction regardless of what packing I put on top of it. Scrubbers should work fine. I just wanted to warn about compressing them too much.

I've used stainless scrubbers a lot. Many here have recommended teasing the scrubbers (pull them out to expand them), insert them into the column then use like a plunger to push them down, stack and pack them evenly. Well from one run to another the column would perform differently. If packed too tight it would begin to flood. Too loose and the % ABV would drop. I just couldn't use scrubbers with any repeatable consistency. That is why I love Lava Rock. It works repeatably and consistently.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

I meant to say wagon wheel and the quartz would be too heavy to use the scrubby as it's going to be right at 4 lbs of quartz. But I ended up making this and thinking of using lava rocks on bottom then quartz, maybe alternating up the column.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

That cross should work just as I've said. I never said that the quartz WOULD be too heavy. I only suggested using more than one scrubber to be cautious. There's no sense in mixing packing. One must work better than the other or equally. If one works better than the other then why mix them? Use what works best in your experience. You've got the quartz. Test it and see for yourself. IF you're ever feeling froggy, try something else and see if it works better. Make very detailed notes.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Wyododge »

Not a very good pic… sorry.

I think it was cranky who suggested a ball of 12 ga wire. I have a 2” to 3” reducer atop my boiler so it makes this option simple. I just drop it in. It could be made to fit very tight inside a column and the price was right. Doesn’t have ‘much’ restriction. Not sure if this helps, just figured I’d throw it out there.
Column packing support.
Column packing support.
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

It was me that was thinking it would be too much weight being its alot heavily than the lava rocks. I have used stainless and copper packing in the passed when I had no bubble plates. It was just hard keeping all the copper clean. That why I added the whiskey helmet and made the condenser copper but everything else is stainless for easier cleaning and less corrosion. I did make a wire spiral dome and it literally corroded over night. I also cut some thinner stainless cross bars to try out but thought the stainless wagon wheel was my winner. I want to try to do it without the scrubby but I'll use the thinner cross bars with scrubber if it doesn't work as wanted. Wyododge I could see the copper ball working but I think stillers spiral dome uses less wire. Also where did you get the ptfe seals for your column?
I have a hard time finding any seals for my glass column. And do you have to heat and tighten them to get them to seal right?
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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by StillerBoy »

Justmejohn44 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:11 am but thought the stainless wagon wheel was my winner.
From you mind perspective maybe, but certainly not from the view of how vapors behavior.. and that where the issue always is as people don't consider how vapors behave during stilling..

The wheel blocks at least 50% of the vapor path, not discounting the vapor behavior disruption created..

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Re: Constructive Criticism please on fresh rebuild.

Post by Justmejohn44 »

How this for a compromise?
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