I suck at this. Samohon build.

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juana_b
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by juana_b »

Propane is just fine for soldering small diameter pipe, but getting to 2 inch, Mapp is what you want. It's a lot hotter. It's the yellow bottle.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:34 am You guys would’ve gotten quite the laugh at my attempt. Apparently my cheap little propane torch isn’t quite big enough for 2 inch pipe, the damn solder just kept breaking off instead of melting. Guess I have to invest in a better torch.
I've only ever used a propane torch. Plenty of heat even for 2" copper pipe. I use the Bernzomatic TS4000 torch because it has electric ignition, can use propane and Map/Pro fuel. I've never used Map gas ever.

Soldering can take a bit of time to learn, but you'll get it. The trick is to heat the copper, not the solder. Don't heat the copper too much or it can burn the flux. If you burn the flux, solder won't flow and you'll have a poor joint. Solder flows twords where you are heating. Sometimes people make the mistake of holding the torch too close to the pipe. The hottest part is just in front of the blue core of the flame.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by StillerBoy »

rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:34 am Apparently my cheap little propane torch isn’t quite big enough for 2 inch pipe, the damn solder just kept breaking off instead of melting.
It's not the torch who's the issue, it's the handler.. don't try to melt solder, let the heated copper do that..

Here's how to solder for still building, and if the procedure is followed, one can solder within a 1/4" of another soldered area and not affect it..

Once the parts are well clean, paste applied, and the parts are assembled, start heating up the parts slowly using a small flame and always moving it around the part/area, at first staying away from the joining area to be solder (like about 3/4" or so), doing so may take about 5 min or more until the paste has evaporated (the liquid in the paste needs to be evaporated before it will take heat and not smoke (or burn).. Once the part starts to heat up, slowly move the flame toward the area to be solder, if the the paste start to smoke, move away and continue to heat it up until once the flame is applied and no smoke is raised.. At that point start by heating up the end of solder itself a bit, then touch the copper for a few seconds, if it doesn't flow (melt), continue heating and try again until such time as the solder start to melt, from there it just a matter of apply heat ahead of the solder.. the flame should never be in contact with the solder at any time..

There are a few other tips but that should get you started in the right direction..

Mars
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Well, now I’m torn. Was ready to run out and buy a new MAPP torch but maybe the problem is I have too small of a propane torch? This thing is pretty pathetic looking now that I think about it.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

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rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:17 pm Well, now I’m torn. Was ready to run out and buy a new MAPP torch but maybe the problem is I have too small of a propane torch? This thing is pretty pathetic looking now that I think about it.
Check Lowes.com Acehardware.com HomeDepot.com and see what torches they have to offer. Compare it to the one you have. All of those places sell basic torches without any bells & whistles that will work just fine.

I had a torch that had a problem with its tip and I really struggled with soldering. Once I replaced it things went great.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Stonecutter »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:13 am
It's not the torch who's the issue, it's the handler.. don't try to melt solder, let the heated copper do that..


There are a few other tips but that should get you started in the right direction..

Mars
+1
That torch looks fine to me.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by StillerBoy »

rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:17 pm Was ready to run out and buy a new MAPP torch
MAPP gas is not required to do still building task... low heat (flame placed in the right area) is what is required to for the task of building stilling equipment..

Mars
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Yummyrum »

I also agree that MAPP is not needed for soldering .
I do however have a TS8000 MAPP torch and to solder anything under 4” , I have the flame turned down so low , it’s barely running and the gas shield is starting to glow due to the lack of flow through it .

I’m a Flux paste hater and prefer the liquid fluxes . They are also more forgiving when you are learning to solder .
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by elbono »

Nothing else in your picture to tell scale but that torch is probably just fine. I've used the cheapest, crappiest torch with no issues other than needing some patience and having to light it manually. NEVER put a lit torch down! If you need a pause, turn it off and relight it when you're ready!

I got a TS8000
and love it because it's trigger start, put it down it's off, pick it up, pull the trigger it's on. I usually throttle it down and take my time but it will put out a big fluffy HOT flame too. Mine came with a bottle of mapp-pro (mapp hasn't been made since about 2008) but it's still sitting on the shelf, I use propane. Mapp or mapp-pro is hotter (3760 vs 3600 degrees) than propane but it isn't that much.

You need patience, heat the metal (a little away from the joint) until flux boils/bubbles, take the flame off let the heat soak in a bit, then heat GENTLY while testing the joint with solder once it melts take the flame off and only put it back when the solder won't melt.

Heat the metal, the metal melts the solder. Never put the flame on the flux or the solder only the metal.

If you're really good a lot of heat makes things go faster but for amateurs like me slow is good. Once the flux is burnt it's burnt! Then you need to take it apart clean it back and try again.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Thanks as always for the replies, everyone. I feel like I was plenty patient but I could clearly be wrong. I do remember a little smoke coming out the pipe so maybe I did burn the flux. I did find that torch referred to as a pencil tip torch and read that those are really only good for up to one inch. I’ll probably give it a go because the expenses are adding up on this project, but I also might give in and get a better torch.

I feel light years away because of the soldering issue and because it seems not a single one of these pieces fit easily together, I think I’m going have to sand every single one of them a good bit. Flux seemed to make them fit tighter, I noticed, so probably more sanding than I realize. BUT. For the first time I have all my parts so I laid it out and, man, this thing is going to be pretty. Thanks to everyone for your help.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by StillerBoy »

rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:10 pm I feel light years away because of the soldering issue and because it seems not a single one of these pieces fit easily together, I think I’m going have to sand every single one of them a good bit. Flux seemed to make them fit tighter,
Yes sand both inside the fitting and the outside is a requirement, not only for a better fit, but it insure that the copper is properly prepared.. flux will give the feeling that it a bit tighter which is good for a properly fit..

Follow the procedure outline in my post earlier, and if followed, all will come out well..

The fear of not getting it right is killing you.. it is stopped by rehearsing the process a few times before soldering.. once you have a clear understand what is required to be done, low heat, warming the area slowly, checking if it's hot enough by touching the area with the solder tip having been warm up before touching, it not hot enough continue warming/heating the area, until such time as the solder is touch, within a few second, it will flow..

Once the task is clear in your mind, then start the torch and keeping heating up the part/area slowly and all will fall in place..

Remember this tip... as long as the flame is not directed directly at the solder area, or touch while it still hot, the soldered joint will not come apart..

Mars
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by StillerBoy »

In the picture below is an example of many, of soldering 3 parts together within less than 1/4 - 3/8" apart.. all done as I've outline..

Remember.. it's the copper that melts the solder, not the flame melting the solder..

Relax, Rehearse, Then accomplish the task..

Mars
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

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StillerBoy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:58 pm
rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:10 pm I feel light years away because of the soldering issue and because it seems not a single one of these pieces fit easily together, I think I’m going have to sand every single one of them a good bit. Flux seemed to make them fit tighter,
Yes sand both inside the fitting and the outside is a requirement, not only for a better fit, but it insure that the copper is properly prepared.. flux will give the feeling that it a bit tighter which is good for a properly fit..

Follow the procedure outline in my post earlier, and if followed, all will come out well..

The fear of not getting it right is killing you.. it is stopped by rehearsing the process a few times before soldering.. once you have a clear understand what is required to be done, low heat, warming the area slowly, checking if it's hot enough by touching the area with the solder tip having been warm up before touching, it not hot enough continue warming/heating the area, until such time as the solder is touch, within a few second, it will flow..

Once the task is clear in your mind, then start the torch and keeping heating up the part/area slowly and all will fall in place..

Remember this tip... as long as the flame is not directed directly at the solder area, or touch while it still hot, the soldered joint will not come apart..

Mars
Perfect, thank you. Two quick things if you don’t mind. What does this mean, from your first post: At that point start by heating up the end of solder itself a bit, then touch the copper for a few seconds ?

I know you don’t mean to hear the solder directly with the flame but it sounded like it so making sure.

Also, what does “or touch while it is still hot” above mean?

Sorry to be such a bother.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Stonecutter »

As said above don’t let your nerves get in the way.
At least you didn’t go over to your friends house who “knows how to solder” and find them drunk and have to ultimately push them aside. Only to find out that it’s really not that hard :lol:
Plus you can always buff and sand out what doesn’t look good.
If all else fails you can always heat the copper up again and pull everything apart.

Edit: YouTube is your friend
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

This is starting to become a shit show. This is not quantum physics. Heat the shit, apply solder and eventually the solder will melt. Watch some videos and see for yourself. Sorry, but someone has to say it.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Stonecutter wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:55 pm As said above don’t let your nerves get in the way.
At least you didn’t go over to your friends house who “knows how to solder” and find them drunk and have to ultimately push them aside. Only to find out that it’s really not that hard :lol:
Plus you can always buff and sand out what doesn’t look good.
If all else fails you can always heat the copper up again and pull everything apart.

Edit: YouTube is your friend
Ha. Sounds like a super helpful friend. Thanks so much for your help, trying again tomorrow.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by StillerBoy »

rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:49 pm What does this mean, from your first post: At that point start by heating up the end of solder itself a bit, then touch the copper for a few seconds ?

Also, what does “or touch while it is still hot” above mean?
Exactly as stated.. solder draws heat from the part being solder, otherwise it wouldn't melt, so to reduce the time it take for the solder to heat up thereby reducing the temp of heated part, you past the flame across the end, say about 6" from the solder itself for a few seconds, just enough to warm it up but not melt the solder..

On the other point, it's not the flame that melt the solder, it's the heat off the part being solder that melt the solder.. so by touching the part to be solder, if it hot enough, the solder will start to melt, if it doesn't melt, it mean the part is not up to temp yet, so continue to heat the part until such time as it does melt..

Mars
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

StillerBoy wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:12 am
rbsc wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:49 pm What does this mean, from your first post: At that point start by heating up the end of solder itself a bit, then touch the copper for a few seconds ?

Also, what does “or touch while it is still hot” above mean?
Exactly as stated.. solder draws heat from the part being solder, otherwise it wouldn't melt, so to reduce the time it take for the solder to heat up thereby reducing the temp of heated part, you past the flame across the end, say about 6" from the solder itself for a few seconds, just enough to warm it up but not melt the solder..

On the other point, it's not the flame that melt the solder, it's the heat off the part being solder that melt the solder.. so by touching the part to be solder, if it hot enough, the solder will start to melt, if it doesn't melt, it mean the part is not up to temp yet, so continue to heat the part until such time as it does melt..

Mars
Got it, sorry to be dense. Thanks so much.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Broke down and got a better torch. It went amazing. My goal was to just get one or two big joints done today and I ended up finishing the whole thing. She’s not pretty and I’m worried about the union (excess solder dripped onto the threads), but I’m freaking proud of this thing. Thanks so much for all the help, you guys are amazing.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Salt Must Flow »

:clap: :thumbup: Awesome news! Once you get it, it all starts coming together.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Yummyrum »

Good job .
The difference between pretty and not is a file and some sandpaper .

You should have seen my first go :ewink:
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Thanks, guys. I have her all set up just for fun and can’t quit looking at her. :lol:
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

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rbsc wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:08 pm Thanks, guys. I have her all set up just for fun and can’t quit looking at her. :lol:
Don’t keep her to yourself .

We want pics :ebiggrin:
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

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rbsc wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:08 pm Thanks, guys. I have her all set up just for fun and can’t quit looking at her. :lol:
Don't be selfish! Show her off!
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Go easy, I know my soldering is awful. :lol:
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

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rbsc wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:08 pm I have her all set up just for fun and can’t quit looking at her.
Now that the fear of the unknown has been overcome, the seed has been planted for future expansion..
For a first attempt, very good job.. a file and some fine sandpaper, and a soak in some vinegar or citric acid will finish the task..
Enjoy the journey..

Mars
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

This is one of my favorite things to see in this hobby ...when I started out you had to build , there were no other options..... welcome to the world of being a builder .....not a buyer :thumbup:
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

Thanks, guys. I know it sounds corny but I’m super proud of this project. I’m the kind of dude who pays a plumber to fix a damn leaky faucet, I have no skills. So this was a big deal for me. And now this brewhaus pot still I started on looks like a little boy’s toy compared to this thing. :lol:
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by squigglefunk »

hey man it looks great, as long as there's no leaks and it's lead free solder you did good.
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Re: I suck at this. Samohon build.

Post by rbsc »

squigglefunk wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:31 am hey man it looks great, as long as there's no leaks and it's lead free solder you did good.
Hate to say it but I’m almost assuming there will be some leaks. I feel like I used way too much solder because it was dripping and globbing up in some places, but once it dried I could see some tiny little gaps. Oh well, part of the process.
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