I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

All styles of whiskey. This is for all-grain mashes.

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squigglefunk
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

Post by squigglefunk »

one hard part for me was knowing how much of the heads/tails to blend into the final product. you gotta go further than you would think.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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FL Brewer wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 7:39 am Hey BrewinBrian, what's the verdict on the best oak toasting treatment of the three you tried?
Great question. Honestly, from that chart going around the forum for flavors at certain toasting steps, I thought I’d lean more towards the lighter or no toast, but the heavy toast is much better imo. It has an almost pastry like flavor to it. Lots of vanilla and caramel and a whisper of chocolate. Very good for a bourbon. It also provides a deeper color.

One thing I also forgot to mention, in addition to different toast levels, I’ve also experimented with different aging proof and those results are showing big differences. Using the same wood, 60% ABV brings out more spicy flavor while 54% ABV brings out more of the sweet caramel. For my bourbon with rye in the grain bill, the higher ABV compliments the spice from the rye very well. With my Honey Bear Bourbon I’m finding I enjoy the lower ABV approach as I don’t want to mask the flavors of the white dog with as much spice and the sweeter flavors really lend themselves to the recipe. These experiments have really helped me learn about dialing in the flavors I want. I have many more variations I’d like to try in the future. I’ve considered saving these unique jars to blend with future spirits in different proportions to add more complexity to the final product.

Back to the origin of this thread, don’t discount what your wood and aging treatments can bring to the table. It’s a whole other ballgame. Good wood is key!
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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I use 400F toast for two hours and alligator char, on the darker end of the spectrum. I chose that based on my reading on this forum, not a lot of experiments, which was why I was eager to hear which you preferred. The couple early batches I did with no toast and a lighter char seemed tannic to my taste buds. My wood source is a Jack Daniels half barrel from Home Depot.

Good note on the aging ABV, I like your description of the 54% stuff, I'm definitely gonna try that. I've got a new batch of white wheat malt whiskey at 60% that's been aging for only a couple weeks, I may dilute one of the jugs down to 55% or so. Definitely agree that the choice and treatment of the wood contributes more to the final whiskey taste than anything else except maybe making really bad cuts.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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FL Brewer wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:17 am I use 400F toast for two hours and alligator char, on the darker end of the spectrum. I chose that based on my reading on this forum, not a lot of experiments, which was why I was eager to hear which you preferred. The couple early batches I did with no toast and a lighter char seemed tannic to my taste buds. My wood source is a Jack Daniels half barrel from Home Depot.

Good note on the aging ABV, I like your description of the 54% stuff, I'm definitely gonna try that. I've got a new batch of white wheat malt whiskey at 60% that's been aging for only a couple weeks, I may dilute one of the jugs down to 55% or so. Definitely agree that the choice and treatment of the wood contributes more to the final whiskey taste than anything else except maybe making really bad cuts.
I’ve noticed more wood tannin with my non charred sticks. It’s very pronounced early on, but fades with time. In the past, I had some UJSSM that tasted like straight sawdust, so I stuffed it away and forgot about it, but left the wood in the jar. A long while later, I saw the jars that I forgot about and gave them a taste, the woody flavor transformed into caramel, very nice.

I don’t notice this as much with second or third use oak, which makes sense. I’ve actually considered making a big batch of sacrificial neutral as a pre-treatment for oak to take some of the edge of for lighter spirits. I’ve seen some members on here doing that. The jar basically becomes like black tar haha.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:34 pm
FL Brewer wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:17 am I use 400F toast for two hours and alligator char, on the darker end of the spectrum. I chose that based on my reading on this forum, not a lot of experiments, which was why I was eager to hear which you preferred. The couple early batches I did with no toast and a lighter char seemed tannic to my taste buds. My wood source is a Jack Daniels half barrel from Home Depot.

Good note on the aging ABV, I like your description of the 54% stuff, I'm definitely gonna try that. I've got a new batch of white wheat malt whiskey at 60% that's been aging for only a couple weeks, I may dilute one of the jugs down to 55% or so. Definitely agree that the choice and treatment of the wood contributes more to the final whiskey taste than anything else except maybe making really bad cuts.
I’ve noticed more wood tannin with my non charred sticks. It’s very pronounced early on, but fades with time. In the past, I had some UJSSM that tasted like straight sawdust, so I stuffed it away and forgot about it, but left the wood in the jar. A long while later, I saw the jars that I forgot about and gave them a taste, the woody flavor transformed into caramel, very nice.

I don’t notice this as much with second or third use oak, which makes sense. I’ve actually considered making a big batch of sacrificial neutral as a pre-treatment for oak to take some of the edge off for lighter spirits. I’ve seen some members on here doing that. The jar basically becomes like black tar haha.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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still_stirrin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:44 am I suggest starting by learning how to brew (all grain) beers. That will teach you the flavor contribution of various cereal grains. It will teach you the mash process and fermentation processes. Practice, practice, practice.

As Geoff would point out, anyone can follow a recipe to make bread. But it is the experience that turns you into “a baker”.

Recipe formulation is art. The palette is defined by the grains and the artistry is created by the painter/brewer. Nobody creates a “masterpiece” as their 1st painting … it requires perseverance and practice. Skill is an “acquired” honor.

Sorry, no “get rich quick” answers here. Just encouragement to keep trying.
ss
That advise is terribly depressing to a guy like me SS :cry: .
I have a wheat allergy so can't drink much beer anymore. I lay off all wheat so I can cheat by having a cold one once and a while.
That's why I switched to hard liquor. No regrets though. "BUT" nothing like a few cold beers on a hot summer day.
It'll probably take me alot longer to figure out what grains provide what flavors.
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Ben
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Most beer contains no wheat, so I am confused... usually you have to go out of your way to get a wheat beer, or even one that uses it as an adjunct. If you mean gluten allergy it is possible to brew gluten free, could be a good way to get your beer fix.



Shouldn't be discouraged! You should be thrilled you have a challenge ahead of you that will be rewarding at every stage. If you could produce perfect whiskey tomorrow it would get real boring, real fast. You can produce drinkable stuff from day one just by following the TNT recipes, then start working towards your own thing. No reason anything you make should come out undrinkable, even if something comes out rough; time and oak cures a lot of errors. If that doesn't work blending usually does.
:)
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Ben wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:02 am Most beer contains no wheat, so I am confused... usually you have to go out of your way to get a wheat beer, or even one that uses it as an adjunct. If you mean gluten allergy it is possible to brew gluten free, could be a good way to get your beer fix.




Shouldn't be discouraged! You should be thrilled you have a challenge ahead of you that will be rewarding at every stage. If you could produce perfect whiskey tomorrow it would get real boring, real fast. You can produce drinkable stuff from day one just by following the TNT recipes, then start working towards your own thing. No reason anything you make should come out undrinkable, even if something comes out rough; time and oak cures a lot of errors. If that doesn't work blending usually does.
Yeah it's actually the gluten protein. Found in most grains. Iv tried commercial gluten-free beer and YUK.
Iv already thought about a homemade gluten-free beer, maybe rice or buckwheat or some oat or other form.
And your right I'm having a blast playing around.Im very thankful for the guys who filled the T&T section. Iv made a few tasty beverages already. And now iv started my AG so whisky and bourbon are the 2 I'm focusing on.
I actually have acorn whisky that's a year old and it's matured nicely. :thumbup:
And I have a whiskey that's a year old on oak and still smells like socks and tastes like garlic :thumbdown:
I'm well stocked with lots of various grains and specialty grains so I'm playing around and figuring out what's what.
My conversion is getting better every recipe. So I definitely think this rabbit hole is worth it.🍻
I drink so much now,on the back of my license it's a list of organs I need.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Bradster68 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:51 pm
And I have a whiskey that's a year old on oak and still smells like socks and tastes like garlic :thumbdown:

Just tell your friends it has notes of "umami, fine cheese, and savory herb". That will let you get rid of it!
:)
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Ben wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:33 am
Bradster68 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:51 pm
And I have a whiskey that's a year old on oak and still smells like socks and tastes like garlic :thumbdown:

Just tell your friends it has notes of "umami, fine cheese, and savory herb". That will let you get rid of it!
:D
I drink so much now,on the back of my license it's a list of organs I need.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

Post by n_plains_drifter »

This has been a wonderful thread. Thanks to all who contributed. From my experience, slow and methodical has helped me up my game.

I took my time researching and designing my pot head with a distinct eye to reducing turbulence and smearing, and I think that (and slow spirit runs) has provided me with clean distillate throughout the run which makes cuts much easier. After some early AG's, associated gumballs and straight up sugar washes, I had a (semi) happy accident and ended up running a veritable tanker load of UJSSM to fill up an overly large barrel which further refined my distillers skills.

As you may guess from my handle, I'm up here where the snow flies early and the drifts get deep. I ferment in my basement (generally low to mid 60's year round), which lends itself to slow production, but consistent results. I know that many here would say 'ignore the thermometer', but I take 3 readings on every cut jar: Volume, ABV and Temp. And while my records show that for a specific run you can't depend on either ABV or Temps to decide what makes the cut and what goes to feints, there are definitely ranges that show up.

The area where I still need more experience is in knowing how deep into the tails to go for flavor that will mature with time. Most of my runs to date have been on the 'too clean' side of the ledger. I did have a Honey Bear spirit a month ago where I got a late start and ran it faster than normal. The cuts were a bit dirtier than most, but the white that I ended up with is very tasty'. It's waiting in stainless for its siblings to get run so that it can augment the UJ that has been my sipping companion over the past months.

My four P's for better whiskey: Patience, processes, procedures and practice.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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I had an idea recently, and this seems like the logical place to put it. If I were to take all the grains I’m likely to use in whiskey and make a whiskey from each one, could I blend them in the same proportions that I’d use in a given grain bill and get at least an approximation of what a given recipe would do?

In other words, make a 100% corn whiskey, using enzymes of course. Same with rye, wheat, oats, barley, and maybe a specialty malt or two. Save some white, maybe age some on oak. Then use those as a sort of palette from which to create a grain bill.

It would be a fair bit of work, time, and expense. And obviously it’s more practical to just follow a tried and true recipe, or at least be inspired by it. But at least in theory, would this work? Or is there some alchemy which can’t easily be replicated when making individual spirits like this?
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:33 pm I had an idea recently, and this seems like the logical place to put it. If I were to take all the grains I’m likely to use in whiskey and make a whiskey from each one, could I blend them in the same proportions that I’d use in a given grain bill and get at least an approximation of what a given recipe would do?

In other words, make a 100% corn whiskey, using enzymes of course. Same with rye, wheat, oats, barley, and maybe a specialty malt or two. Save some white, maybe age some on oak. Then use those as a sort of palette from which to create a grain bill.

It would be a fair bit of work, time, and expense. And obviously it’s more practical to just follow a tried and true recipe, or at least be inspired by it. But at least in theory, would this work? Or is there some alchemy which can’t easily be replicated when making individual spirits like this?
I'd say there are likely other subtle reactions and interactions that are happening during fermentation and distillation that contribute to a complex flavor profile. In theory, you'll likely end up with a fine drink, but as you said, it's a lot of time, money, and testing for something that might not beat the regular process.

It probably wouldn't hurt to have some of the major ingredients (ie. corn, rye, and barley, maybe some oat) to blend with your final product if you're looking to pull more of a specific flavor through, but having all of those individual bottles/barrels sitting around waiting for blending would take up valuable space for a fine tried and true to be aging in ;)
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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I wasn’t thinking of using them for blending a finished product. The idea would be to use them to develop a recipe. For example, take 62% corn, 17% rye, 12% wheat, 9% 2 row, blend them together, decide thats the perfect ratio, and then go back and do the same with the actual grain to make a proper whiskey.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:05 pm I wasn’t thinking of using them for blending a finished product. The idea would be to use them to develop a recipe. For example, take 62% corn, 17% rye, 12% wheat, 9% 2 row, blend them together, decide thats the perfect ratio, and then go back and do the same with the actual grain to make a proper whiskey.
Ahh, I see. That's kind of what I was getting at. It would likely end up different, but not having done it before, it's only speculation. Might be a fun experiment to try on a small scale to see if it's worth scaling up. Take a recipe that you know, make a batch, then see if the individual spirits blended come close.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:33 pm In other words, make a 100% corn whiskey, using enzymes of course. Same with rye, wheat, oats, barley, and maybe a specialty malt or two. Save some white, maybe age some on oak. Then use those as a sort of palette from which to create a grain bill.
That is how (for the most part) Canadian Whiskey is made.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Here's how I made my all grain sweet feed..

26 gallons AG COB wash (mash)
13 gallons Rum wash

Combined low wines for spirit run. Delicious, no drama.

Running full still of each grain and combining them later during the blend is a really good way to learn the taste of grains quickly. And how they are together (you can make lots of blends). Pro tip, do uj style for each grain and save your back. You'll still get isolated grain flavor.

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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

Post by FL Brewer »

That is exactly my idea; I currently have batches of corn, oat, barley malt, and wheat malt single grain, all grain batches aging on new oak. Two years of distilling....

Oldest one, corn is just about two years on oak, the youngest, wheat malt just a couple months.

I'm really looking forward to tasting and blending them.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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One of the things I like about running single grain batches is that the spirit run can be optimized for each grain. For instance, I collect way farther into the tails on my rice batches than on corn, corn seems to get a nasty taste coming through at a lower vapor temp/higher ABV than rice. I don't keep track of the exact temps and ABV since I'm doing the cuts by taste (I do monitor the vapor take off temp on my VM head but that is just a rough guide), but rice definitely stands out as not getting nasty flavor until much later than other grains. No matter which grain you're using being able to optimize the cut for each grain rather than making a compromise cut for a blend of grains seems to me a major advantage.
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Re: I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Found this goldmine a couple of years ago:
https://modernthirst.com/home/bourbon-w ... ash-bills/

Mash-bills and barrel proof for ALOT of different burbouns / Kentucky Straights. :)
We managed to make a quite awesome clone of michters US*1.
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