Random Packing For A 4" Column

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drmiller100
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

Ben wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:44 am
drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:31 am
Channeling I have Called stove piping. I find it fascinating you theorize marbles would be worse for this than spa.

How do you pack your spp so it is absolutely homogenous?
You don't, that's the point. The post I deleted rambled a little about homogeneity, porosity and vapor channeling. Short of it is I think that's one of the things that makes random packing (SPP or Dixon rings) work better than something homogeneous like marbles.
drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:23 am [
Thermal mass is meaningless. The column comes to temp at sbout the same time hooch starts dripping out the top.
I disagree, the thermal mass of the vapor is much lower than that of the packing. A modest change in the packing design, or the conductivity of the material is going to effect the behavior of the vapor. If you are running fully flooded it matters less, and whether that is a metric that you can detect or not I don't know, but it certainly effects the behavior of the vapor in the column. Remember we are often at a threshold with the constituents of the vapor where they are very close to condensation temp, so removing or adding a small amount of heat impacts a portion of the vapors phase, if the vapor is losing heat to the packing it will condense, adding to the plate effect. More condensation throughout the column should lead to better separation (higher HETP, which we see). The vapor management condenser is not the only place condensation is happening, it is more like a control and a location to pull heat so you can stack the column temp, and send more reflux back down to mingle and reboil. It probably matters less if you are using something like marbles that are much less conductive than a metallic packing material, but I still bet you see a thermal gradient top to bottom, or a pressure drop without the condenser active.

There is a pretty good debate about it here: viewtopic.php?t=30727
Once the column is up and running and you are pulling 95 percent would you agree the top of the column doesn't change temperature?
Likewise each spot IN the column does not change temperature.
For sure the boiler is hotter than the condenser but each spot along the way is a constant non changing temperature.

This is easily tested and pretty basic.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:56 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:58 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:08 pm
Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -
Help me wrap my head around what's happening. :lol:
Is the continuous stripping and then continuous spirit run being done completely separate.
Or are two separate columns going to be run in series?
The system has a beer column that does the stripping. Low wines are then immediately deposited into a reboiler and finishes the spirit.

It's a continuous system with two columns
Which column is flooding?
My beer stripper section is 4 inch. Liquor section is 3 inch. Both are pretty maxed at 25 gph.

All one column.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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Ben wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:44 am [

You don't, that's the point. The post I deleted rambled a little about homogeneity, porosity and vapor channeling. Short of it is I think that's one of the things that makes random packing (SPP or Dixon rings) work better than something homogeneous like marbles.
My testing demonstrates otherwise.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:38 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:56 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:58 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:08 pm
Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -
Help me wrap my head around what's happening. :lol:
Is the continuous stripping and then continuous spirit run being done completely separate.
Or are two separate columns going to be run in series?
The system has a beer column that does the stripping. Low wines are then immediately deposited into a reboiler and finishes the spirit.

It's a continuous system with two columns
Which column is flooding?
My beer stripper section is 4 inch. Liquor section is 3 inch. Both are pretty maxed at 25 gph.

All one column.

The beer column is very stable at 35 gallons an hour of processing speed. This with a 10% beer.
It is the spirit column that progressively takes on bad hydraulic behavior.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:50 pm
drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:38 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:56 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:58 pm

Help me wrap my head around what's happening. :lol:
Is the continuous stripping and then continuous spirit run being done completely separate.
Or are two separate columns going to be run in series?
The system has a beer column that does the stripping. Low wines are then immediately deposited into a reboiler and finishes the spirit.

It's a continuous system with two columns
Which column is flooding?
My beer stripper section is 4 inch. Liquor section is 3 inch. Both are pretty maxed at 25 gph.

All one column.

The beer column is very stable at 35 gallons an hour of processing speed. This with a 10% beer.
It is the spirit column that progressively takes on bad hydraulic behavior.
I'm surprised. To clarify beer stripping 4 inch with mesh scrubbers at 35 gph is fine, but 3.5 gph of 95 percent is too much for the 4 inch packed column with scrubbers.

That really is backwards imo0
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

The beer column is stripping with perforated plates that have 6 mm perforations with a 19 mm downcomer/drain tube. The beer side of the system is designed to cope with solids.

I can't recall at the moment what the active / inactive ratio on the plate is?
I'm home and sipping so can't remember.

As mentioned,,,or implied earlier, the operator tried to save money by going with a shorter packed column rather than utilizing an actual plate count for vodka purity.

Just trying to help the dude make the spirit side of the system behave and not get completely out run by the beer column.

Though I suspect he didn't save anything as the SPP to fill the column evidently cost a metric fuck ton?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Stonecutter »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:09 pm
Though I suspect he didn't save anything as the SPP to fill the column evidently cost a metric fuck ton?
I believe the closest conversion on that is the standard shit load :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:09 pm The beer column is stripping with perforated plates that have 6 mm perforations with a 19 mm downcomer/drain tube. The beer side of the system is designed to cope with solids.

I can't recall at the moment what the active / inactive ratio on the plate is?
I'm home and sipping so can't remember.

As mentioned,,,or implied earlier, the operator tried to save money by going with a shorter packed column rather than utilizing an actual plate count for vodka purity.

Just trying to help the dude make the spirit side of the system behave and not get completely out run by the beer column.

Though I suspect he didn't save anything as the SPP to fill the column evidently cost a metric fuck ton?
Interesting. On the beer side how many plates? What is the etoh content of the spent beer?

Marbles in the spirit column should work easily. Hell half inch somewhat round rocks should work fine.

Also marbles packing will pass small solids. Not a kernel of corn but for sure the floaters in beer.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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10 plates for the beer column. Though I do have data that 9 gets it done. 12" plate spacings.

.5% alcohol down the drain.

Yeah I'm feeling like .5" ( 10 to 12 mm) or similar is about the diameter needed for the best behavior at this speed.

Hopefully the 2 meter rectification section is enough to pull 95 at that feed rate?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:50 pm 10 plates for the beer column. Though I do have data that 9 gets it done. 12" plate spacings.

.5% alcohol down the drain.

Yeah I'm feeling like .5" ( 10 to 12 mm) or similar is about the diameter needed for the best behavior at this speed.

Hopefully the 2 meter rectification section is enough to pull 95 at that feed rate?
Smiles. You are losing 20 percent of your etoh!!! Smiles!!!!!

That last half percent will take another 10 plates.

I'd be willing to bet one meter of marbles would be plenty but more certainly doesn't hurt.
Which is a pretty important concept. More plates or packing doesn't hurt.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:09 pm
LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:50 pm 10 plates for the beer column. Though I do have data that 9 gets it done. 12" plate spacings.

.5% alcohol down the drain.

Yeah I'm feeling like .5" ( 10 to 12 mm) or similar is about the diameter needed for the best behavior at this speed.

Hopefully the 2 meter rectification section is enough to pull 95 at that feed rate?
Smiles. You are losing 20 percent of your etoh!!! Smiles!!!!!

That last half percent will take another 10 plates.

I'd be willing to bet one meter of marbles would be plenty but more certainly doesn't hurt.
Which is a pretty important concept. More plates or packing doesn't hurt.
Sorry Doug I don't understand how you mean that?
I am sending a half percent of alcohol out with the effluent stream. How does that equate to loosing 20% of my ethanol?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:50 pm
I'm feeling like .5" ( 10 to 12 mm) or similar is about the diameter needed for the best behavior at this speed.
Sounds like the owner needs to spend another fuckton of money buying bigger SPP.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:38 am
LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:50 pm
I'm feeling like .5" ( 10 to 12 mm) or similar is about the diameter needed for the best behavior at this speed.
Sounds like the owner needs to spend another fuckton of money buying bigger SPP.
I'm thinking ceramic saddles or some type of less expensive material.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:12 am
drmiller100 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:09 pm
LWTCS wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:50 pm 10 plates for the beer column. Though I do have data that 9 gets it done. 12" plate spacings.

.5% alcohol down the drain.

Yeah I'm feeling like .5" ( 10 to 12 mm) or similar is about the diameter needed for the best behavior at this speed.

Hopefully the 2 meter rectification section is enough to pull 95 at that feed rate?
Smiles. You are losing 20 percent of your etoh!!! Smiles!!!!!

That last half percent will take another 10 plates.

I'd be willing to bet one meter of marbles would be plenty but more certainly doesn't hurt.
Which is a pretty important concept. More plates or packing doesn't hurt.
Sorry Doug I don't understand how you mean that?
I am sending a half percent of alcohol out with the effluent stream. How does that equate to loosing 20% of my ethanol?
Oops. My bad. I was wrong. 2 percent in the effluent would be 20 percent lost.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:58 am

I'm thinking ceramic saddles or some type of less expensive material.
Maybe something like these.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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Who makes em? Link?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

Give me a moment to backtrack and maybe I can find it.
Not working, I cleared my history since I downloaded the pic. :oops:

But here's something I found.

https://www.machengineering.com/tower-p ... lAQAvD_BwE
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

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be water my friend
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by bunny »

shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:22 am Give me a moment to backtrack and maybe I can find it.
Not working, I cleared my history since I downloaded the pic. :oops:

But here's something I found.

https://www.machengineering.com/tower-p ... lAQAvD_BwE
Have you ever had any luck getting any response from businesses like these?
I haven't. Maybe I was to honest about why I wanted their product. :D
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

bunny wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:06 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:22 am Give me a moment to backtrack and maybe I can find it.
Not working, I cleared my history since I downloaded the pic. :oops:

But here's something I found.

https://www.machengineering.com/tower-p ... lAQAvD_BwE
Have you ever had any luck getting any response from businesses like these?
I haven't. Maybe I was to honest about why I wanted their product. :D
Yeah some of the industrial suppliers have an MOQ and littty bitty volumes hardly get a response.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by bunny »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:20 pm
bunny wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:06 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:22 am Give me a moment to backtrack and maybe I can find it.
Not working, I cleared my history since I downloaded the pic. :oops:

But here's something I found.

https://www.machengineering.com/tower-p ... lAQAvD_BwE
Have you ever had any luck getting any response from businesses like these?
I haven't. Maybe I was to honest about why I wanted their product. :D
Yeah some of the industrial suppliers have an MOQ and littty bitty volumes hardly get a response.
I would have thought labs and pilot plants would use much smaller quantities similar to what our needs are.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

bunny wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:52 pm
LWTCS wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:20 pm
bunny wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:06 pm
shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:22 am Give me a moment to backtrack and maybe I can find it.
Not working, I cleared my history since I downloaded the pic. :oops:

But here's something I found.

https://www.machengineering.com/tower-p ... lAQAvD_BwE
Have you ever had any luck getting any response from businesses like these?
I haven't. Maybe I was to honest about why I wanted their product. :D
Yeah some of the industrial suppliers have an MOQ and littty bitty volumes hardly get a response.
I would have thought labs and pilot plants would use much smaller quantities similar to what our needs are.
Completely agree.
Problem is that big oil has / had a monster of a war chest and is, and has been able to get to more data way, way early in the game. Like literally they know most everything about distilling for like 100 years now. Seriously.

What they don't have a handle on is the sensory awareness data associated with distilling spirits. Its far more complex.

Any who, many industrial suppliers that established themselves back in the day don't really recognize the hobby sector.
Now if hobby distilling ever becomes legally viable,,,,, they'll come calling.

Fact is, with petroleum now exposed as a limited resource, they ought to get their shite together and diversify,,,,is my opinion.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Windy City »

If he doesn’t mind spending the money he could go with Pro Pak
Everything I have read about it has been that it truly outperformes SPP
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/US/en/prod ... ch/z210552
I would love to buy some for my 4”
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

$390 per liter.
That's almost $1,000 to fill a 4" x 80" column.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Windy City »

shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:20 pm $390 per liter.
That's almost $1,000 to fill a 4" x 80" column.
Yeah I know, it’s crazy :wtf:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

Hang on I need to do my math again.
I'm thinking its more than that.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

100mm x 2mtr = around 15ltr
$390 x 15 = $4800ish :shock:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Stonecutter »

shadylane wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:28 pm Hang on I need to do my math again.
I'm thinking its more than that.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

100mm x 2mtr = around 15ltr
$390 x 15 = $4800ish :shock:
The law of diminishing returns, is it really worth the price compared to lava rock or marbles?
Too expensive to simply buy to test it out.
Like a 80yr bottle of commercial scotch or cognac.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:08 pm
Now if hobby distilling ever becomes legally viable,,,,, they'll come calling.
I see a niche market that could be profitable.

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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Stonecutter »

Niche market for sure Shady. It’s a shame it’s so expensive. Looks like some pretty cool stuff
Last edited by Stonecutter on Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

Stonecutter wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:57 pm
The law of diminishing returns, is it really worth the price compared to lava rock or marbles?
Too expensive to simply buy to test it out.
Lava rock, marbles, SS mesh and my favorite ceramic aquarium rings.
SPP and the other store-bought packings are more efficient per height.
But cost so much it's cheaper to just make your column taller.
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