Random Packing For A 4" Column

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Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Hey team,
Is anyone out there fooling with a 4" packed column diameter?
Anyone have any opinions about what would be an optimal size / girth for SPP or any other similar type material?
The column is a 4" x 80" (100 mm x 2032 mm).
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Here's a recent topic.

I really like using Lava Rock. For my 3" VM the average size is .27"

For a 4", I'd probably shoot for a little larger while keeping all of the smaller pieces too. Later you could test the smaller pieces and see how that size compares. When I tried a smaller size the column flooded.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by StillerBoy »

Mash Rookie some yrs back (2012) explored the pros and cons of different packing for different size of column.. and I recall reading about 4" for SPP and lava rocks..

Can't be of help cause I've need experimented with 4", done lots with 1.5 - 2 and 3"..

viewtopic.php?t=30727

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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Yeah, I happen across that thread every so often.
Just wasn't sure if there were any more experiments that may have allowed for further conclusions?

My initial thoughts were that something slightly larger than a raisin would work best at that diameter? And that anything at 2 or 3 mm would provoke far too much liquid hold up?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Bushman »

I run a 4” column with homemade copper mesh packing. Mash Rookie helped me build my PC so I took my still down to his glass blowing shop and we both did a run at the same time. He ran is 3” flute with the same charge. We both came to the same conclusion that not only did mine out perform but also was easier to run. Not sure how many years I have been running my rig but have never had what I would call a bad run. I made my own packing. Here is a link, if you read through the thread I actually added more packing than my original post.
viewtopic.php?t=47650
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

LWTCS wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:10 am
My initial thoughts were that something slightly larger than a raisin would work best at that diameter? And that anything at 2 or 3 mm would provoke far too much liquid hold up?
How big is a raisin? :lol:
https://www.sizes.com/food/raisins.htm

Just guessing, because I don't know shit about SPP.
2 or 3 mm sounds small for a 4" column, unless it's short and needs to be run slow.
Another guess is the SPP diameter needs to be around 5% - 10% of the column dia?
Maybe the taller the column the larger dia the packing can be?
Last but not least, is the SPP being used to chase after azeo or neutral spirits.
Because I think there's different requirements between the two. :ewink:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Thanks Shady.
10% seems like what I was thinking without really knowing any better.
This is for the spirit side of a 4" continuous still. They want neutral. Don't want a plated column.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

All really good points Ben.
Thermal mass definitely affects efficiency.
SPP definitely is designed to incorporate more theoretical plates by virtue of available surface area.

In this case I need the column to aspirate with good behavior.
At the moment, there is too much liquid mass accumulation based on the processing speed of the beer column.
The spirit column reaches proof nicely but then proof starts to drop as the column ends up being loaded with too much liquid as phase change cycles start to diminish and bad hydraulic behavior starts to take over.

Pretty sure the dude has the column filled with 2 or 3 millimeter SPP.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Ben? Heller?
Where'd your comment go?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Ben »

I deleted it due to it being really rough. I need to think it through more... core was there but it was not verbalized in a very easy to read way.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Wasn't that rough.
Don't be so hard on yourself :D
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Feed rate is 35 GPH @ 10%. Or about 7 proof gallons an hour.
Including the heads distillate take off I need it to collect at about 12 to 14 liter per hour
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Ben »

This is an interesting subject, I wish I had interest in neutral so I could justify building and playing with a packed column, fiddling with all the packing parameters, etc. Brown liquor for me though :).

Alright, so the points I made earlier:

The material and construction of the SPP seem to matter. Stainless vs copper for instance: copper is a much better conductor. In the column there will be a temperature gradient, higher at the bottom, cooler at the top (the scientific papers I have found on the subject talk about pressure drop rather than temp gradient, PV=nRT so this is the same thing. It is easier for home distillers to measure temp). It is possible that just by changing from one material to another you will see a significant performance change. Stainless should react more slowly to the column environment, its density is lower but its also much less thermally conductive. What this means for the user (as far as I can figure) is less forgiveness in inputs, the copper will sort of act like a buffer absorbing some excess heat (in either direction) and slowing the results of a change, be that change environmental like a draft coming through the still house or the natural change in composition of the vapor, or operator inputs (may be double edged). It should also have a higher HETP per volume.

The other factor that seems big is the wire diameter, especially in relation to the size of the packing itself. A small change in diameter ends up being a big change in thermal mass, and surface area, and a minor change in porosity of the packed section. To a lesser extent this will effect drainage, I am not sure that would be an easy parameter to measure though. And looking at Dixon rings, which would seem to be an even better performer I would think finer wire would be better since it will be more "clingy".

Size of the SPP also changes things, first the overall porosity (flow rate) of the packed section. This changes vapors ability to move up some, but more dramatically changes liquids ability to fall. If a column is flooding with minimal reflux it seems like going to a larger SPP would aid in drainage. It will also make the column more difficult to operate and lessen the size of the sweet spot (reflux ratio, heat input vs reflux).

Any SPP is going to have the advantage of reducing channeling (when compared to a non random packing such as marbles). I think this may be where SPP really shines; although I don't have any actual data to support it. In a regularly packed column vapor channeling would seem like a big deal. You would end up with hot spots in the column where vapor channels quickly and cooler spots that are more prone to flooding. This would also seem to be a big advantage to using copper, as it is going to conduct the heat better and further reduce channeling.

Ultimately what I am hypothesizing here is that smaller copper SPP, of a larger relative wire diameter should make a still that is very easy to drive, and consumes less energy in both heating and cooling. But it will be much slower than a column of the same size packed with larger stainless packing in a finer diameter. It is going to be up to the preference of the operator which direction to go. And without any side by side comparisons this is all just supposition. It also may be that these columns are so efficient at separation that for our purposes it may just be better to go to the largest reasonable SPP and control it via reflux.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Good points Ben. Thank you for chiming.

With respect to performance, assuming 30 plates
(theoretical or actual) is the theoretical max that is needed to achieve vodka ABV, I am most concerned with achieving the requisite amount of phase change cycles needed.

Thermal mass provided by the packing for the sake of increased energy preservation is a far away secondary consideration if I already am pumping in enough heat to achieve the collection speed goal.

Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -. So the heat input needed will be far less than the typical beer charge.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:20 pm Feed rate is 35 GPH @ 10%. Or about 7 proof gallons an hour.
Including the heads distillate take off I need it to collect at about 12 to 14 liter per hour
What is a proof gallon? 35 gph of 10 percent is 3.5 gph of azeo.

That is too much for 13 mm marbles. 25 gph is max and that is at 4000 ish watts.

If you back off to 25 gph, 13 mm marbles you only need 40 inches height to strip it.

Marbles are not random so that also doesn't match your criteria.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

A proof gallon is a gallon of 100 proof (50% abv).
Proof gallons are the metric for taxation.

I have an 80" tall column section.

Here is the system:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:57 am Good points Ben. Thank you for chiming.

With respect to performance, assuming 30 plates
(theoretical or actual) is the theoretical max that is needed to achieve vodka ABV, I am most concerned with achieving the requisite amount of phase change cycles needed.

Thermal mass provided by the packing for the sake of increased energy preservation is a far away secondary consideration if I already am pumping in enough heat to achieve the collection speed goal.

Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -. So the heat input needed will be far less than the typical beer charge.
Thermal mass is meaningless. The column comes to temp at sbout the same time hooch starts dripping out the top.

The magic chart could be looked at closely. As hard as it is to get from 93 percent to azeo, it is equally hard to drive the last 2 percent etoh from the wash. Harder even.

So if you think 30 plates is sufficient to go from 50 percent to azeo it takes another 30 plates from 10 percent wash to under 1 percent.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

Ben wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:41 am Any SPP is going to have the advantage of reducing channeling (when compared to a non random packing such as marbles). I think this may be where SPP really shines; although I don't have any actual data to support it. In a regularly packed column vapor channeling would seem like a big deal. You would end up with hot spots in the column where vapor channels quickly and cooler spots that are more prone to flooding. This would also seem to be a big advantage to using copper, as it is going to conduct the heat better and further reduce channeling.
Channeling I have Called stove piping. I find it fascinating you theorize marbles would be worse for this than spa.

How do you pack your spp so it is absolutely homogenous?
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

30 plates is theoretically enough to go from beer/wine to vodka ABV.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

Ben wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:41 am Any SPP is going to have the advantage of reducing channeling (when compared to a non random packing such as marbles). I think this may be where SPP really shines; although I don't have any actual data to support it. In a regularly packed column vapor channeling would seem like a big deal. You would end up with hot spots in the column where vapor channels quickly and cooler spots that are more prone to flooding. This would also seem to be a big advantage to using copper, as it is going to conduct the heat better and further reduce channeling.
Channeling I have Called stove piping. I find it fascinating you theorize marbles would be worse for this than spa.

How do you pack your spp so it is absolutely homogenous?
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:31 am 30 plates is theoretically enough to go from beer/wine to vodka ABV.
It seems like vodka is 80 proof. 10 percent beer boils so the vapor is about 50 percent or 100 proof.

So really one plate is enough???
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

Vodka bottle proof is 80 Doug.
Vodka needs to come off the still at 190 here in the US.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by drmiller100 »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:37 am
Vodka needs to come off the still at 190 here in the US.
Just like fuel!!!!!
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

Larry, is this the "readers digest condensed version" of what's needed. :lol:

The column is a 4" x 80" (100 mm x 2032 mm).

This is for the spirit side of a 4" continuous still. They want neutral

Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -

Including the heads distillate take off I need it to collect at about 12 to 14 liter per hour
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:04 pm Larry, is this the "readers digest condensed version" of what's needed. :lol:

The column is a 4" x 80" (100 mm x 2032 mm).

This is for the spirit side of a 4" continuous still. They want neutral

Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -

Including the heads distillate take off I need it to collect at about 12 to 14 liter per hour
Yessir.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:08 pm
Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -
Help me wrap my head around what's happening. :lol:
Is the continuous stripping and then continuous spirit run being done completely separate.
Or are two separate columns going to be run in series?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

shadylane wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:58 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:08 pm
Low wines will enter the spirit side of the system at 50% + or -
Help me wrap my head around what's happening. :lol:
Is the continuous stripping and then continuous spirit run being done completely separate.
Or are two separate columns going to be run in series?
The system has a beer column that does the stripping. Low wines are then immediately deposited into a reboiler and finishes the spirit.

It's a continuous system with two columns
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by shadylane »

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.
I'm thinking dividing the process in half is a great idea. :thumbup:

I guess the question now is, what size and shape of SPP best meets the needs?
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by LWTCS »

As mentioned, the SPP currently in use will allow for proof, but the column soon floods because there is no draining once enough liquid mass accumulates in the column.

This is visible from the sight glass below the column.
Once the liquid mass gets too dense the proof starts to drop.
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Re: Random Packing For A 4" Column

Post by Ben »

drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:31 am
Channeling I have Called stove piping. I find it fascinating you theorize marbles would be worse for this than spa.

How do you pack your spp so it is absolutely homogenous?
You don't, that's the point. The post I deleted rambled a little about homogeneity, porosity and vapor channeling. Short of it is I think that's one of the things that makes random packing (SPP or Dixon rings) work better than something homogeneous like marbles.
drmiller100 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:23 am [
Thermal mass is meaningless. The column comes to temp at sbout the same time hooch starts dripping out the top.
I disagree, the thermal mass of the vapor is much lower than that of the packing. A modest change in the packing design, or the conductivity of the material is going to effect the behavior of the vapor. If you are running fully flooded it matters less, and whether that is a metric that you can detect or not I don't know, but it certainly effects the behavior of the vapor in the column. Remember we are often at a threshold with the constituents of the vapor where they are very close to condensation temp, so removing or adding a small amount of heat impacts a portion of the vapors phase, if the vapor is losing heat to the packing it will condense, adding to the plate effect. More condensation throughout the column should lead to better separation (higher HETP, which we see). The vapor management condenser is not the only place condensation is happening, it is more like a control and a location to pull heat so you can stack the column temp, and send more reflux back down to mingle and reboil. It probably matters less if you are using something like marbles that are much less conductive than a metallic packing material, but I still bet you see a thermal gradient top to bottom, or a pressure drop without the condenser active.

There is a pretty good debate about it here: viewtopic.php?t=30727
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