Getting a cleaner Sugar Wash

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Hello all!

I'm looking for some advise about getting better results on some Teddy Sad's fast fermenting Vodka sugar wash. The TLDR version is after my spirit run, making cuts and blending, I'm still left with what I assume is an ester being quite present in my product. Smells of artificial bananas.

Here's my process:
I follow Teddy Sad's second revision recipe (the one that adds some kibbled rye) and my yeast of choice is Angel brand distillers yeast.

I make up an invert sugar as I've heard breaking down the sugars to monosaccharides can give the yeast an easier time. I do the usual grain mash on the stove and chuck that in with my dissolved sugar, add the extras like DAP, a pinch of Epsom salts, multivitamin tablet, citric acid, etc. Basically just following Birdwatcher's recipe.

I then add water to match the prescribed volume and aim for the finished wash to sit at just over 20 degrees C before pitching the yeast (I rehydrate some before hand). Yeast is pitched and I use a drill with a paddle attachment to whip in some air. Finally I put the wash under an airlock as we have fruit flies here and I'd rather they don't get in there.

Last time I did keep a sleeping bag around my fermenter to keep the temperatures up as on the yeast packet it had said the yeast likes to sit at about 20 degrees C (my garage would dip under that over night plus daily temps weren't too high). Fermenter sticker said it sat at about 20-22 degrees while fermenting.

I did 3 hard and fast stripping runs using a Still Spirit boiler and pot still head with both 1100W elements on. Chucked a knob of butter in each stripping run wash to prevent the wash puking into the collection.

Combined three stripping runs into a single spirit run using the same boiler and a copper collumn which is now packed with Spiral Prismatic Packing and some copper mesh. I did the spirit run slowly, using both elements but also a voltage regulator so the whole unit was running at about 80 percent. Condenser flow rate was about 500ml per minute (the Still Spirit collumn combines reflux and product condenser water lines, first travelling through the product condenser, then the reflux. Not idea I know).

I sat the finished collection vessels for two days to air out and made my cuts, blended and put the undesirables in one demijohn, the blended desirables in another.

I took some out after about a week and proofed it down to 40%ABV with some distilled water and let that sit another week (still can't find anything definitive about proofing down the wash in one go, only that with things like whiskey one might want to proof it down slowly as to not shock it). Tasting it, it still possesses some interesting notes that (for me, smelled like artificial banana) I didn't like so charcoal filtered it twice and to me that improved things.

Is there any advise someone might be able to lend on what might be going wrong with/how I might improve my process whether it be the fermentation stage or the still operation stage of things.

One thing that needs to be said on my part is that while a different still might yield better results, I'm still very new to this hobby and I'm going to fiddle with what I've got for now and if I get some basics down and am hooked on distilling, at that point I'll happily fork out some extra for better equipment but for now I'm going to stick with what I've got.

As always, thanks for you time and patience!

[NZChris]

Try it without the tomato and rye.
viewtopic.php?t=70585

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Aaah sorry NZChris. I'll have to amend my post. I'm using Teddy Sads fast fermenting Vodka recipe not Birdwatchers *slaps forehead*

[Stonecutter]

+1NZChris
Take the adjuncts out and just use sugar.
Try a different recipe.

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Thanks for a link to that recipe NZChris, I'll give that a bash!

[Salt Must Flow]

I'd try Shady's Sugar Shine or Wino's Plain Ol Sugar Wash. I've been using Wino's, but with the addition of boiled yeast. Now I'm going to try Shady's recipe because it's exactly the same, but less boiled yeast (for nutrient) and more pitching yeast. I never get any odd flavors unless I accidentally get too much tails after cuts. It's just DAP, vitamin tabs, epsom, boiled yeast and sugar. I too invert my sugar. I adjust PH with Citric acid then float a bag of crushed oyster shells to buffer the PH.

I've always used Fleischmann's Yeast and it likes to be around 85F. If you haven't tried it before, I'd give it a go. I find 2 lb at Sam's Club for $5.00. You can easily make a hot box out of pretty much anything, heat it with a cheap little electric space heater and a temp controller. I made a box in my garage out of OSB and it's not even insulated. My garage is heated though.

Whenever I don't like something about my neutral, I dump it all back in the boiler, dilute it as much as I can and just run it again. I'd give that a try and see if that cleans it up for you.

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Thanks Salt Must Flow. You're the second to recommend that other recipe so sounds like a good way to go. Also appreciate the yeast recommendation, it's nice to have something tried and tested.

I'll do that with the bad neutral. I'm saving some up with some of the unwanted cuts and will just chuck them all through when I've accumulated enough

[Windy City]

I would highly recommend Shady’s Sugar Shine
It is a very clean neutral.
I have made it many times and have never been disappointed my neutral comes out like water. Obviously cuts are important but this recipe makes it easy

[Salt Must Flow]

Thanks Salt Must Flow. You're the second to recommend that other recipe so sounds like a good way to go. Also appreciate the yeast recommendation, it's nice to have something tried and tested.

I'll do that with the bad neutral. I'm saving some up with some of the unwanted cuts and will just chuck them all through when I've accumulated enough

Don't worry about diluting it a LOT before running again. More nasties have a tendency to stick around in the boiler the more you dilute and even if you dilute a LOT you don't have to worry about losing alcohol. You can confirm this by letting the boiler cool down (or a sample out of the boiler) and test it after a run. It will be less than 1% ABV in the boiler. Reflux columns remove nearly all of the alcohol where pot stills leave approx 3% or more in the boiler.

[NZChris]

Aaah sorry NZChris. I'll have to amend my post. I'm using Teddy Sads fast fermenting Vodka recipe not Birdwatchers *slaps forehead*

That is a vodka recipe, not a neutral. I'm not surprised you have trouble cutting the flavor out of it.

The less flavor you put into your fermenter, the less there will be in your spirits.

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

I don't mind it that it has a taste. I actually liked the addition of rye in the mix as I've tried it both ways and for me personally, I've always been partial to rye. The issue is still that artificial banana smell and fruity taste

I've never tried shadies sugar shine and as I am experimenting with gin it's definitely worth having a go with it though part of me would also like to experiment with having a decent vodka and turning that into gin, retaining some of the vodka flavours

[Salt Must Flow]

I don't mind it that it has a taste. I actually liked the addition of rye in the mix as I've tried it both ways and for me personally, I've always been partial to rye. The issue is still that artificial banana smell and fruity taste

I've never tried shadies sugar shine and as I am experimenting with gin it's definitely worth having a go with it though part of me would also like to experiment with having a decent vodka and turning that into gin, retaining some of the vodka flavours

Just curious, do you recall what the % ABV you were collecting during your reflux run? If you want to share your column dia, column height, what packing and what style your column is that could help.

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Sure thing. The ABV was coming out around 94/95 according to my alcometer. The collumn height on an SS still is only about 60cm and the diameter around 5cm.

The packing I replaced with spiral prismatic packing as the original packing isn't ideal plus with the collumn being short it just helps bump up the ABV a little. There is also some copper mesh in there and I own the copper collumn version just so there's a bit more copper in the mix.

As far as collumn style, it's a pretty simple CM design.

[NZChris]

The issue is still that artificial banana smell and fruity taste

If you have the same problem with a different recipe, try a different yeast.

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Will do. Might stick with the one I have (Angel) and do the Shady's wash and see if banana smell rears its ugly head. Then at least I'll know it's likely the yeast and not the other recipe components. If it's the yeast I'll switch to Fleischmann's Yeast per Salt Must Flow's recommendation and see how that goes.

[Dougmatt]

Is the angel yeast wa-18? It seems like that is specially designed yeast to complement wheat beer with a banana clove ester creation. Banana is likely from Isoamyl acetate which that yeast supposedly creates as a by product.

https://en.angelyeast.com/blog/distille ... yeast.html

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Dougmatt you legend! Just checked and it is indeed is wa-18 which completely explains why that ester is coming out. I've made a few batches German wheat beer over the years and that ester being present now makes perfect sense to me.

I grabbed this yeast as I saw others using it for this recipe and didn't think too much to research it as I figured it'd been vetted by others.

Feel silly now but thank you so much. I'll try a different yeast that'll be more appropriate. Any recommendations are very welcomed

[bluc]

Is the angel yeast wa-18? It seems like that is specially designed yeast to complement wheat beer with a banana clove ester creation. Banana is likely from Isoamyl acetate which that yeast supposedly creates as a by product.

https://en.angelyeast.com/blog/distille ... yeast.html

You may have cracked the how to get banana in rum thread...blokes trying to get the ester into rum.. think it may have been dr who...

[NZChris]

I use whatever bread yeast I have on hand, just not the ones that have added nutrients. Only used what was available at the local shops for decades until I started doing some large ferments and bought a bulk pack at an Asian grocer. Brand hasn't make a difference that I've noticed yet. I've made many a fine gin using narrow cut double pot distilled sugar wash, refluxing the feints from that for my high quality neutrals for high end gins etc..

[StillerBoy]

Sure thing. The ABV was coming out around 94/95 according to my alcometer. The collumn height on an SS still is only about 60cm and the diameter around 5cm.

Add another 30cm (12") to the column, as 60cm (24") is too short for neutral, it will also help in getting you to 96% instead of 94/95% for a cleaner finish product..

Mars

[kimbodious]

Did you keep the column in equilibrium for any time before collecting spirit on the spirit run?
What was the rate of output on the spirit run?

[still_stirrin]

The issue is still that artificial banana smell and fruity taste

If you have the same problem with a different recipe, try a different yeast.

+1.

It is the yeast that is creating the esters, so a different yeast strain may be better. For a ferment with less ester products, try the Lalvin EC1118 (champagne) yeast. And don’t try to make a high gravity wash, rather keep it in the OG=1.065 to 1.070 range (around 10% potential).

The champagne yeast can tolerate cooler temperatures too but bear in mind that it does ferment slower. So, don’t expect a 3 day ferment to attenuation. It could take a week or 2 at least.
ss

[bunny]

Does anyone ever get any sulfur odors in their sugar washes?
I don't.
Is that unusual?

[Saltbush Bill]

Does anyone ever get any sulfur odors in their sugar washes?
I don't.

Never Have.

[Yummyrum]

Never smelt it in either the fermenter or the distillate , but I do have a Copper still and it does go black , so can assume that there must be some in there even if I can’t smell it .

[shadylane]

Does anyone ever get any sulfur odors in their sugar washes?
I don't.
Is that unusual?

Sounds like you believe in not stressing the yeast.

[Dougmatt]

Never smelt it in either the fermenter or the distillate , but I do have a Copper still and it does go black , so can assume that there must be some in there even if I can’t smell it .

Hi Yummy, I sincerely respect your posts, and appreciate advice you and others have given. This black copper = copper sulfide comment comes up a lot, so I’m not singling this post out, it just happens to be the one to pop this question out from me for you or anyone else.

I heard this repeated a lot by many on this board to the point I stressed a while to get copper into the vapor path of my stainless steel still which of course turned black. Long story short, I thought wow I’ve never had a sulfer problem in my fermentations, why now? So I researched a bit which led me to think that it was copper oxide not copper sulfide. I believe it’s hard to tell them apart visually. So the question, what makes everyone sure this black is copper sulfide over copper oxide?

I did find an interesting chart while research this back then (sorry, I don’t know what site to credit) on the aroma impacts of stainless versus copper.

I pondered this for awhile. Some thoughts:

- with copper you trade a little solventy smell for a nice tradeoff in meaty and suphery which seem unwanted
- you get a little boost in floral and fruit with copper and ss may do something “feinty” which I don’t know how that is different from solventy unless it’s just not cleaning up some chem’s
- WTH is up with “clean”? Could it be copper cleaning up all those unwanted chemicals or is some small amount of copper leaching causing it (fresh copper is “clean” smelling to me)

Anyway, seems to fit the conversation so hopefully not straying to far off topic.

Edit: I found the source of the photo: https://www.deviantdistillery.com/2019/ ... it-stills/

[bunny]

Does anyone ever get any sulfur odors in their sugar washes?
I don't.

Never Have.

Never smelt it in either the fermenter or the distillate , but I do have a Copper still and it does go black , so can assume that there must be some in there even if I can’t smell it .

Does anyone ever get any sulfur odors in their sugar washes?
I don't.
Is that unusual?

Sounds like you believe in not stressing the yeast.

Never smelt it in either the fermenter or the distillate , but I do have a Copper still and it does go black , so can assume that there must be some in there even if I can’t smell it .

Hi Yummy, I sincerely respect your posts, and appreciate advice you and others have given. This black copper = copper sulfide comment comes up a lot, so I’m not singling this post out, it just happens to be the one to pop this question out from me for you or anyone else.

I heard this repeated a lot by many on this board to the point I stressed a while to get copper into the vapor path of my stainless steel still which of course turned black. Long story short, I thought wow I’ve never had a sulfer problem in my fermentations, why now? So I researched a bit which led me to think that it was copper oxide not copper sulfide. I believe it’s hard to tell them apart visually. So the question, what makes everyone sure this black is copper sulfide over copper oxide?

I did find an interesting chart while research this back then (sorry, I don’t know what site to credit) on the aroma impacts of stainless versus copper.

F98A1AC4-3184-4D96-99CC-A3F64E0740AF.jpeg

I pondered this for awhile. Some thoughts:

- with copper you trade a little solventy smell for a nice tradeoff in meaty and suphery which seem unwanted
- you get a little boost in floral and fruit with copper and ss may do something “feinty” which I don’t know how that is different from solventy unless it’s just not cleaning up some chem’s
- WTH is up with “clean”? Could it be copper cleaning up all those unwanted chemicals or is some small amount of copper leaching causing it (fresh copper is “clean” smelling to me)

Anyway, seems to fit the conversation so hopefully not straying to far off topic.

Edit: I found the source of the photo: https://www.deviantdistillery.com/2019/ ... it-stills/

I only produce neutral via a basic 9.4% ABV sugar wash recipe.
Nothing else.
To my knowledge there isn't any sulfur in my wash except that from the epsom salt.
My stripper is all copper but very small.
Staring into it it just looks like a patina ( not shiny copper nor black).
I have never cleaned it beyond a water rinse out.
My LM RC has quite a few azeo gallons on it and the top of it ( the part that always stays cold) is the same color as the bottom ( looks like old copper).

Do recipes for colored/flavorful products contain enough sulfur to warrant treatment for the odor?
I don't plan on making any of them.
Just curious.

[Windy City]

I have run over three dozen runs of Shady’s Sugar Shine and have never had a sulfur smell.
My column is copper with ceramic Siporax rings. If you follow Shady’s recipe you should not have a sulfur smell. I vary from Shady’s recipe slightly by using Fermaid K instead of dap and vitamin B tablets but they are interchangeable without a major degree of difference.
Stick with the Bakers yeast as it cleans up nicely. Watch your fermenting temperatures so you don’t stress the yeast. When I use bakers I keep my temperature at 85F and have quick and clean ferments

[Bewildered Hobbyist]

Sure thing. The ABV was coming out around 94/95 according to my alcometer. The collumn height on an SS still is only about 60cm and the diameter around 5cm.

Add another 30cm (12") to the column, as 60cm (24") is too short for neutral, it will also help in getting you to 96% instead of 94/95% for a cleaner finish product..

Mars

Currently working on that actually, ordered some parts and am waiting for delivery