What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

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loki9421
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What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

Hello all :wave:

Apologies if this question has been posted before, I had a short look around but couldn't see anything that answered this specifically.

I'm embarking on the journey to start making my own rums and gins, maybe whiskeys. I've saved a little money and I've started looking at some equipment. While I think I have a good idea of the still I want I'm a bit lost on what fermentation pot to start with. I've seen a few that look like they would do the trick but the relevant customer services say these items can't or shouldn't be used for spirits. I was hoping to get some advice from you all as to what you use for fermentation.

Ideally, I'd like a temperature-controlled vessel so I can maintain consistency.

Here's a selection of some that I thought might work, however, please let me know if these are not the correct items to be starting with.

https://www.klarstein.co.uk/Home-Applia ... evEALw_wcB

https://www.klarstein.co.uk/Home-Applia ... Steel.html

https://www.klarstein.co.uk/?cl=details ... 01365023a5

https://www.vevor.co.uk/wine-barrel-c_1 ... 7NEALw_wcB


I'm not entirely sure what benefit the cone shape provides other than collecting some residue, perhaps someone can enlighten me? Does it have any benefit and if so in what way?

I'm looking forward to hearing what you all have to offer, I appreciate your time reading this.

Thanks!

Dave
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by BlueSasquatch »

For Fermentation, which would be after you cook your mash - You let sit for 1-2 weeks with some yeast to conver the sugary mess into alcohol, it will be a low% of say 5-10% alcohol, so you're safe to use HDPE plastics. The larger you go, the more expensive it gets and the more people lean towards safe plastics.

For 6 gallons and less, glass carboys work fair, or other glass containers. I used (9) 5-gallon safe plastic buckets, I now use (2) 10 gallon safe plastic barrels and will soon be using (3) 15 gallon stainless steel kegs. I've heard of plenty who use safe plastic 55 gallon barrels as well.

If you are a beginner, I would recommend going with a safe plastic bucket or barrel, and save your money until you fall in-love with the hobby. Also there are better distilling related things to spend your money on, rather than the front-end Mash/fermenting (Not to cheapen those, but again, safe plastics are fine)


Temperature control is nice, but not as crucial as perhaps homebrewing. Take your fermentation vessel and put it in your house, in an internal closest if you can, should be able to maintain that 75-90 temp range, year round.

Or if you're dead set on it, build a fermentation chamber, google it, I'm working on one right now, its basically a fridge/deep freeze that you use a controller with, to hit a specific temp range, and then you put your fermentation vessels (buckets) into it.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Steve Broady »

I started with 1 gallon glass carboys, then quickly moved up to a 3 gallon conical, and then just as quickly moved up to 5 and 6 gallon buckets, and I haven’t looked back. If I were starting over, I’d get the largest coolers that I could afford and store. I haven’t worried too much about temperature control yet, aside from building a small control box with temperature probes to power immersion heaters. I’m sure that at some point, I’ll start worrying about temperature control, but for now I’m still working on getting enough skill in other areas to make it matter.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Chauncey »

How big of a still are you looking at?
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Ben »

Buckets/plastic barrels work good at the ferment stage, carboys are kind of a pain: heavy, sort of dangerous and expensive. They are good for storing distillate if you are trying to collect enough to fill a barrel, or storing while your barrel is full. Conical fermenters are nice, but more of an investment and really not necessary. Like BlueSasquatch said, there are other places to spend the money, and having a ton of fermenter space, especially early on is nice.

Skip temp control for now, just select a yeast that works in your environment. I am not sure where you are located, but this time of year an ale yeast such as s04 or us05 will probably work pretty well. Or just use DADY or Fleishmans bakers yeast, they work best at higher temps but will still function in the high 60s.
White Labs Analysis - Temperature.JPG
Your ferment will kick up 3-5°F during initial ferment, so select something that works good just a little higher than your room temp. Most flavor contribution from the yeast happens in the first couple days so you don't need a crystal ball.

Spend your budget on fermentables and get stilling. If there are leftovers after your still is setup and working good spend it on aging equipment or mashing equipment. Temp control is sort of the lowest thing on the priority list in distilling, there is almost always a yeast suitable for your climate.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:57 am For Fermentation, which would be after you cook your mash - You let sit for 1-2 weeks with some yeast to conver the sugary mess into alcohol, it will be a low% of say 5-10% alcohol, so you're safe to use HDPE plastics. The larger you go, the more expensive it gets and the more people lean towards safe plastics.

For 6 gallons and less, glass carboys work fair, or other glass containers. I used (9) 5-gallon safe plastic buckets, I now use (2) 10 gallon safe plastic barrels and will soon be using (3) 15 gallon stainless steel kegs. I've heard of plenty who use safe plastic 55 gallon barrels as well.

If you are a beginner, I would recommend going with a safe plastic bucket or barrel, and save your money until you fall in-love with the hobby. Also there are better distilling related things to spend your money on, rather than the front-end Mash/fermenting (Not to cheapen those, but again, safe plastics are fine)


Temperature control is nice, but not as crucial as perhaps homebrewing. Take your fermentation vessel and put it in your house, in an internal closest if you can, should be able to maintain that 75-90 temp range, year round.

Or if you're dead set on it, build a fermentation chamber, google it, I'm working on one right now, its basically a fridge/deep freeze that you use a controller with, to hit a specific temp range, and then you put your fermentation vessels (buckets) into it.
Ok, great advice, thank you for your time! I think perhaps a safe plastic container will be good to start with.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

Steve Broady wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:26 am I started with 1 gallon glass carboys, then quickly moved up to a 3 gallon conical, and then just as quickly moved up to 5 and 6 gallon buckets, and I haven’t looked back. If I were starting over, I’d get the largest coolers that I could afford and store. I haven’t worried too much about temperature control yet, aside from building a small control box with temperature probes to power immersion heaters. I’m sure that at some point, I’ll start worrying about temperature control, but for now I’m still working on getting enough skill in other areas to make it matter.
It's interesting that the replies here are mentioning temp control as least important, this is an eye opener and certainly going to save some cash. I'm in the UK and in a rather old (and cold) house hence I thought temp control should be a priority. Perhaps I should try without and see how I get on :thumbup:
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

Chauncey wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:30 am How big of a still are you looking at?
I was looking at this https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/spiritwor ... t500-3839/, I believe it's 25ltrs.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

Ben wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:32 am Buckets/plastic barrels work good at the ferment stage, carboys are kind of a pain: heavy, sort of dangerous and expensive. They are good for storing distillate if you are trying to collect enough to fill a barrel, or storing while your barrel is full. Conical fermenters are nice, but more of an investment and really not necessary. Like BlueSasquatch said, there are other places to spend the money, and having a ton of fermenter space, especially early on is nice.

Skip temp control for now, just select a yeast that works in your environment. I am not sure where you are located, but this time of year an ale yeast such as s04 or us05 will probably work pretty well. Or just use DADY or Fleishmans bakers yeast, they work best at higher temps but will still function in the high 60s.

White Labs Analysis - Temperature.JPG

Your ferment will kick up 3-5°F during initial ferment, so select something that works good just a little higher than your room temp. Most flavor contribution from the yeast happens in the first couple days so you don't need a crystal ball.

Spend your budget on fermentables and get stilling. If there are leftovers after your still is setup and working good spend it on aging equipment or mashing equipment. Temp control is sort of the lowest thing on the priority list in distilling, there is almost always a yeast suitable for your climate.
Fantastic, thank you. Your post and chart are very helpful. Really glad I posted here before dumping a few hundred £'s on temp control :D
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Chauncey »

loki9421 wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:38 am
Chauncey wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:30 am How big of a still are you looking at?
I was looking at this https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/spiritwor ... t500-3839/, I believe it's 25ltrs.
I'm not a fan of the t500. But if you're set on that go with something in the 18 to 20 gallon range so you can ferment enough for 3 stripping runs. If putting all your eggs in one large basket is daunting, try just a couple hdpe bucket fermenters and fit the lids for airlocks unless you purchase them that way.

Something like this

https://labelpeelers.com/equipment/ferm ... peEALw_wcB
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I use brute trash cans - 20gallon, 32gallon, and large thick blue HDPE barrels 50(55?) gallon depending on what i'm fermenting. For temp control I use a cheap "ICT-308 WIFI" controller with four standard heating pads wrapped between fermenter insulation/reflectix and the barrel/fermenter...



The 50g HDPE barrel is great for a full mash (or multiples in a series) to do three strips with the 16g boiler. The 20 and 32g brutes are better for smaller batches with limited materials or experiments.

The Brute cans may(and do but not always) sometimes leak if filled with boiling hot corn mash - so you might get lucky on a few mashes with htose but recommend something more robust for boiling hot corn mash like the large blue 50g HDPE barrels.

Cheers!
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

Chauncey wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:49 am
loki9421 wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:38 am
Chauncey wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:30 am How big of a still are you looking at?
I was looking at this https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/spiritwor ... t500-3839/, I believe it's 25ltrs.
I'm not a fan of the t500. But if you're set on that go with something in the 18 to 20 gallon range so you can ferment enough for 3 stripping runs. If putting all your eggs in one large basket is daunting, try just a couple hdpe bucket fermenters and fit the lids for airlocks unless you purchase them that way.

Something like this

https://labelpeelers.com/equipment/ferm ... peEALw_wcB
Oh right, what would you recommend in place of the t500? I'm fully open to suggestions on what type of still to buy, if you know of better ones out there I'll happily take a look, I'm not set on anything particular right now, very much in the 'information gathering stage right now.

Thanks for the link btw!
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:52 am I use brute trash cans - 20gallon, 32gallon, and large thick blue HDPE barrels 50(55?) gallon depending on what i'm fermenting. For temp control I use a cheap "ICT-308 WIFI" controller with four standard heating pads wrapped between fermenter insulation/reflectix and the barrel/fermenter...



The 50g HDPE barrel is great for a full mash (or multiples in a series) to do three strips with the 16g boiler. The 20 and 32g brutes are better for smaller batches with limited materials or experiments.

The Brute cans may(and do but not always) sometimes leak if filled with boiling hot corn mash - so you might get lucky on a few mashes with htose but recommend something more robust for boiling hot corn mash like the large blue 50g HDPE barrels.

Cheers!
-j
Thank you! This is certainly a much cheaper option!
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Soft batch »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:52 am ...

The 50g HDPE barrel is great for a full mash (or multiples in a series) to do three strips with the 16g boiler. The 20 and 32g brutes are better for smaller batches with limited materials or experiments.

The Brute cans may(and do but not always) sometimes leak if filled with boiling hot corn mash - so you might get lucky on a few mashes with those but recommend something more robust for boiling hot corn mash like the large blue 50g HDPE barrels.

Cheers!
-j
I've had two Brute's develop a leak in almost the same place - moved on to the HDPE pickle barrel.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Bradster68 »

I started with 5 and 6 gallon pails and carboy. Still using em but have purchased some 30 gallon that I hope to jump up to very soon.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by elbono »

I started with 5 gallon buckets, food safe ones are cheap at either of the big box hardware stores in my area. You can get tops that seal if you want to use fermentation locks. I quickly found that friends in the food service industry are more than happy to trade a few empty pickle/sauce buckets for a pint of "paint stripper".

When I wanted to up my volume I started using plastic trash cans, if you put a liner in them clean up is a matter of throwing the liner in the trash. I can get a piece of tubing sealed in with electrical tape but more recently I've just been covering the can without "sealing" the bag. A 30 gallon liner actually fits best in a 22 gallon can.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Twisted Brick »

A couple items to consider:

Plastic fermenters, while inexpensive need to be cared for to avoid scratching, which can harbor bacteria. Stainless fermenters are more sturdy/sanitary and can be handled more roughly. Also, plastic tends to act as an insulator, which can be a good or a bad thing for managing ferments depending on your ambient temps. Brutes are initially cost-effective, but from some members' reports, need replacing before something catastrophic occurs.

It's a good idea to read up on projected yields from various ferments, then expected yields from strip runs, and finally expected yields from spirit runs. How much you want on hand to age/drink will ultimately determine how much you'll want to ferment.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Dougmatt »

Some thoughts for your consideration:

For your size still and the fact that you don’t seem price sensitive, I would recommend starting with standard wine fermentation buckets (7.9 G / 30 L) with lid, airlocks and seals. They are cheap really even though there are lower cost alternatives. I would not get one that is tapped as they always seem to leak. You can order them from Amazon in US and I expect the uk but every home brew store sells them if nearby you. Like others, I have a bunch of these and some bigger options, but I seem to use these due to my still sIze which is similar to what you anre thinking right now and more on that in a second.

Next question is: are you only distilling or might you want to make wine or beer too? Reason is there are usually “starter kits” that include carboys, racking canes, etc that are packaged at an item discount. If you aren’t doing beer and wine too then some of that stuff (like bottling equipment is useless in stilling). It’s worth considering imo especially if you can wait until the holidays when those kits really go on sale.

I would not recommend starting with a bigger fermenter. Reasons: the buckets, assuming you are in average shape, can be easily moved around full, the big ones not very easily :). Next a large hot AG ferment depending on how you do it, may have to be done in batches anyway (how much water can you boil at one time?). I find the small buckets the perfect size for that. Finally I have a 5 gallon still (similar boiler size) which means you can only fill it to 3.5-4 gallons leaving head room so 2 buckets of ferment is 3 strip runs which equals a spirit batch for me.

A final note on carboys. Plastic is good for wash / mash ferments and clearing. You can’t put high abv in them. I like a mix of larger plastic ones (3, 5 and 6 gallon) and 1 gallon glass as a carbon mix. The plastic is lighter to handle and mostly bounces if you drop it. I’ve had bigger glass break and it’s scary when that happens. You do have to be conscious about cleaning with plastic as someone mentioned before but all it took for me was one glass carboy shattering. I was lucky and wasn’t injured but it was a wake up for me. I have 6 big glass ones that sit in a lonely corner these days
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by squigglefunk »

Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:32 am A couple items to consider:

Plastic fermenters, while inexpensive need to be cared for to avoid scratching, which can harbor bacteria. Stainless fermenters are more sturdy/sanitary and can be handled more roughly. Also, plastic tends to act as an insulator, which can be a good or a bad thing for managing ferments depending on your ambient temps. Brutes are initially cost-effective, but from some members' reports, need replacing before something catastrophic occurs.

It's a good idea to read up on projected yields from various ferments, then expected yields from strip runs, and finally expected yields from spirit runs. How much you want on hand to age/drink will ultimately determine how much you'll want to ferment.
I agree with all of this, and for me, a 55 gallon fermenter is the way to go, just seems like very little extra work compared to smaller ferments and I get enough to make a decent run.

I use a food safe plastic barrel that was used to transport kosher glycerin and yes they scratch very easily. But a bit tougher than the brute trashcan route for sure!

I am on the lookout for a stainless steel barrel :thumbup:
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by ThomasBrewer »

IMO, temperature control is the the #1 thing. Stressed yeast produce compounds that will come over with your distillate and make for a sub-par drink. I use aquarium heaters set a little above my fermentation temperature, and then use an Inkbird seedling heat mat controller with submersible probe to do the fine control exactly where I want it. Should either of the thermostats fail (aquarium bimetallic or the Inkbird digital), the other should keep things from burning.

Besides using old pickle Buckets, where the pickling spices might tain your wash, accepatble fermentation vessels are easy to source. I prefer to ferment in a 44qt Bayou Classics stockpot since it's super easy to clean. 8gal wine making buckets, food grade Brute totes, modified kegs, etc. all work great.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by BlueSasquatch »

ThomasBrewer wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:46 am IMO, temperature control is the the #1 thing. Stressed yeast produce compounds that will come over with your distillate and make for a sub-par drink. I use aquarium heaters set a little above my fermentation temperature, and then use an Inkbird seedling heat mat controller with submersible probe to do the fine control exactly where I want it. Should either of the thermostats fail (aquarium bimetallic or the Inkbird digital), the other should keep things from burning.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by contrahead »

BlueSasquatch wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:05 pm
Gonna bust your balls here a bit, you ever been to a commercial distillery? ;)
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by elbono »

ThomasBrewer wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:46 am Besides using old pickle Buckets, where the pickling spices might tain your wash
This was my main worry when I got some for free. The smell may have diminished a bit but it's still there if I stick my head in the bucket. I've never detected it in the mash/wash though and definitely not after distillation. When my pallette gets more sophisticated it might show up.

I'm a brute fan at this point, since I use liners they're only secondary containment if I puncture a liner. I do 40 liter ferments to match my 50 liter boiler.

My biggest advice for a beginner is go cheap until you figure out some things. 5 gallon buckets were great when I had a 5 gallon boiler, I moved to a 15 gallon boiler and now they're just in the way. Glad I didn't spend money for ferment vessels when I thought 5 gallons was the target!
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Deplorable »

I guess I'll chime in here.
I'm also using HDPE plastic to ferment. I use 110L screw top plastic barrels that contained powdered milk in their previous life.
a full fermenter on grain nets me between 1.25 and 1.5 gallons of keep after cuts. Three full fermenters and recycling feints into subsequent runs yields enough to fill a 5-gallon barrel.

Things to consider, start with how much are you going to consume.
From there, you can determine how to build out your kit.
For me, I have time to cook a mash and get a ferment started in a weekend.
When it finishes, I sanitize buckets, rack the clear off the grain, squeeze the grain bed, and clean the fermenter. That takes a few hours on a Saturday.
Once its cleared, I do two stripping runs of 35 to 40L from the cleared beer and let the custard settle for a week or so and rack off any beer I can salvage off the custard for the spirt run. That also takes the better part of a Saturday with cleaning the still.
When I get around to it, I do a sprit run of between 20 and 27L on a Saturday and choose my jars the following morning. Toss the feints into a collection vessel depending on the project, run the jars through the dish washer, char some oak for the jugs and Im done.

Many here like to ferment 3 times the volume of their boiler. For me, double the volume works for my schedule and gets me a satisfactory amount of finished product.

The point is, build your process around what you expect to achieve in the time you have to commit to the craft. Don't rush any part of the process. Procrastinate, you'll make better whiskey.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

Wow, thanks everyone for your answers. It seems the majority are going with non-temperature-controlled vessels. With this in mind, I'll likely opt for simplicity over the temperature-controlled system for now until I gain more understanding of the process.

Others have mentioned yeast yields and operating temperature ranges, I think I need to do some research on this subject along with some trial and inevitable errors!

Thanks again everyone for your input, I've got a clearer direction now on where to start, fingers crossed I'll have a batch or two ready for Christmas :thumbup:
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Deplorable »

There is a lot you can do to control temperature on the cheap.
You can select a yeast strain that works in the ambient temperature you're dealing with.
You can insulate your fermenter in blankets, reflectix, or sleeping bags, and monitor the temperature with a digital thermo probe.
You can add a heating pad under the vessel and control it with an inkBird controller.
Fans can help cool a ferment to some degree, but I feel like it's easier, and less costly to raise the temp, than it is to lower it.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by loki9421 »

I'm looking at perhaps using these 35ltr buckets with an aquarium heater to regulate temperature. I'm considering the stick on type thermometer but I'm not sure how they'll perform on plastic.

I've seen the digital type like these but again I'm unsure how I would use this with the buckets I've chosen as these appear to be sealed thus preventing the sensor access to the liquid inside.

How do you guys monitor the temperature? Is it simply a case of opening up the bucket every day or so to take a reading or do you have a constant monitoring system in place?

Buckets
https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/30-litre- ... ck-and-tap

Digital Thermometer
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255000521653 ... 1&mkcid=28

Stick on thermometer
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by Deplorable »

I use one of these to monitor the temperature inside the ferment. I have a wad of copper 12G wire wrapped around the wire just above the temperature probe to act as a weight that keeps it submerged in the mash. I plug a heating pad that the fermenter is sitting on into the controller and set the temperature to the desired range. I wrap the barrel in reflectix and a couple wool blankets as needed to maintain a constant temperature.

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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by NormandieStill »

Deplorable wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:19 am There is a lot you can do to control temperature on the cheap.
Depending on the level of insulation (or heating / cooling power applied) of your house, and cohabitants who don't object to a few buckets in a corner the simplest solution is to choose a yeast that's happy at the ambient temp of your house and ferment indoors.

Or you can build a powered temperature controlled fermenting chamber from the offset but that's a certain commitment to the project.
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Re: What fermentation option to buy as a beginner?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Deplorable wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:48 am I use one of these to monitor the temperature inside the ferment. I have a wad of copper 12G wire wrapped around the wire just above the temperature probe to act as a weight that keeps it submerged in the mash. I plug a heating pad that the fermenter is sitting on into the controller and set the temperature to the desired range. I wrap the barrel in reflectix and a couple wool blankets as needed to maintain a constant temperature.

+ 1 on this setup!

I find that the yeasties make a good bit of heat when most active and the heating pad doesn’t kick on until they’re almost done. I bought a copper wort chiller and pump to hook up a cool water loop for cooling the ferment. Haven’t used it yet in that capacity.

Cheers!
-j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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