May I have some advice please :)

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Colqld
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May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Hi Folks,
Needing a little advice, I chose this thread because it is the closest I can find.
I have been reading a lot in the different forums but not quite sure how to find the answer I am after.
Technically my second 'run', made with the dreaded turbo yeast (sorry ) and dextrose - I currently have Wino's sugar wash fermenting.
Using a pot still and following along with the method posted by Dusty Trash (getting the most out of my air still), I made my first real attempt at a neutral spirit and added some Gin flavourings. Not ideal according to some by the looks but just starting out.

1x strip run and then 2x spirit runs
I did discard the first 50ml as foreshots
Took the next 250ml as Heads
In the main jars, I have 700ml hearts ranging between 65 - 74% abv (Holy smokes Batman)
Then took the next 500ml as Tails. Ranging between 40 - 60% abv. (I am starting cautiously as this is really the first go)
With the flavourings we are sitting at about 38%abv, don't really want to water it down to mellow it out but willing to do if needs be.

Bottled about 3 weeks ago and just had a little taste - there still seems to be a real alcohol burn/volatiles. Have I done something wrong or will this mellow in time? I do have the lids on so not airing out - is this the issue.=?
I know many people don't advocate Turbo Yeast which is why I am doing a Wino's Sugar wash to see how they differ.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by NormandieStill »

You seem to have cut by volume not by taste. Regardless of the recipe that you use, you're never going to get the best results possible like this. Turbo will make the cuts harder simply because there are more off-flavours present. Wino's should get you a cleaner product but you still need to collect in small jars and make your blend by smell + taste, not by some arbritrary volumes.

Also, how did you do 1 stripping run followed by 2 spirit runs? I think you might have got those the wrong way around.

You can also take your hearts cut, dilute it a little and re-run it to try and clean it up further, making proper cuts this time. If you've already added flavourings then this may not work so well.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Dougmatt »

+1 on Normandie’s response.

Take a look at viewtopic.php?f=46&t=13261

This will help you better understand cuts.

I’m not sure what you added as “gin flavorings” but some of those may be what’s “hot” however I find it more likely you left to much heads in given your description but hard to tell.

I would suggest you Take a look at odin’s easy gin recipe in the tried and true section. It’s a pretty easy gin and will get you started with a process you can grow with.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Hey NormandieStill,
Thank you, still in the learning phase, reading as much as I can but typical noob getting a little lost.
I took my initial wash (turbo etc) and stripped 4lt down to 1lt (3x bottles). ABV was 48% for each one.
Took this down to 30% and ran the 2nd distillation - got 2 lots out of this from my original wash.
After my initial 300ml I then collected in 100ml incriments which is how I had the next 700 as hearts. I also forgot to mention I did run through a charcoal filter as well, which I thought would take care of a lot of the remaining volatiles. Over all I ditched the first 50ml and then collected 1200ml in jars of 100ml.
One thing I think I have missed is that I popped them in the jar but didn't leave to air out over night? Re-reading some more newbie forums again but by letting this air does this then release some of those real strong aromas? I think this is a product of the turbo yeast which is why I am now trying a Wino's Sugar wash.
If I take my lids off and let them 'air out' will this make a difference or be a waste of time?
I am making this for Christmas time and knew that the first couple of runs would be learning curves, I am intending with the next lot to separate into the 100mls, air out, and then blend. My current wash is taking it's time fermenting out (nearly 3 weeks now) and I have used the Bakers yeast this time around to see how this one comes out.
I guess my ultimate question is, still tasting a little like rocket fuel, can this be fixed?
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Colqld Just wrote this out and shifted your other posts ....didn't realize that you had started again here. Mostly fixed I think. Pretty much what Normandie is telling Volume and ABV not the way to go.
Your biggest problem is that you are trying to use ABV and set quantities of spirit to judge which is good and bad ,you can not do it successfully that way.
You need to learn to judge cuts using your senses , smell and taste as well as using plenty of small cuts jars.
We all have to learn to do it , it one of the most important but basic of skills that all distillers need to develop if they wish to make good booze.
This is just one of many links about making cuts, there are many others spread around the forum, maybe others will put up some others for you .
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11640
Look for posts on making Cuts written by Yummyrum.....hes put up some good ones.
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Colqld
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Thanks Dougmatt,
I have read this one, and will read again and again until I have more of an idea.
The gin flavourings is just the 'pre-mix' flavour that you add to neutral spirits - comes in a little 50ml bottle. I have used a Still Spirits Elderflower Gin - essence might be a better description.
Intending to try 'Odins Gin' but that will be a little further down the track when I have more of an idea of what I am doing.
So much to learn......
The diagram I am using, and I do apologize I think it was put up by Salt Bush Bill not Dustry Trash.
viewtopic.php?t=80093
This was where I got the approx cuts from.
Colqld
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Thanks Saltbush Bill, I will be re-reading again. Will also keep this in mind when I distill the next wash.
It is sounding like first batch can't be saved. Rats - might leave the lids off to see how that changes things.
Back to the drawing board :)
Also, thank for all who have answered, your help is most appreciated.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Lids off with coffee filters to let them breath and to keep the bugs out will help quite a bit.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by bcook608 »

Colqld wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:35 am Thanks Dougmatt,
I have read this one, and will read again and again until I have more of an idea.
The gin flavourings is just the 'pre-mix' flavour that you add to neutral spirits - comes in a little 50ml bottle. I have used a Still Spirits Elderflower Gin - essence might be a better description.
Intending to try 'Odins Gin' but that will be a little further down the track when I have more of an idea of what I am doing.
So much to learn......
The diagram I am using, and I do apologize I think it was put up by Salt Bush Bill not Dustry Trash.
viewtopic.php?t=80093
This was where I got the approx cuts from.
That diagram is showing what you MIGHT hope to see on each run. It's not set in stone as every wash will be different.
Since you're running such small batches, I'd recommend stepping your collection down to 75ml or even 50ml to ensure that you're getting the most chances to eliminate the jars that contain anything you don't want.

Good luck and keep learning!
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Dougmatt »

When i do my cuts on sugar wash, I’ve learned to really avoid any jars that have the slightest “sting” in them when diluted. That one thing alone has dramatically improved my results on sugar heads. Dilute to <40% and taste your center expected hearts jar and you shouldn’t feel any sting. Move toward the heads and you will find that point where, when diluted it will have a residual sting / harsh burn likely what you are sensing now. If you intend to drink it soon and / or age it in glass, that’s the stuff you really don’t want so put it in your feints jar to rerun later.

I don’t use oak on basic sugar wash’s, but a barrel or oak will tame this down some over time, but will also add tannin which has its own “bite” you will learn / experience at some point which takes even more time to mellow out.

Tails is more flavors for me that I don’t want but it also sometimes burns or is oily. I typically don’t go too far into tails for tasting though. I run them into a big jug to add to feints runs later. Others search for flavor in them, I just don’t yet.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by rubberduck71 »

I, like many others here, started out on an AirStill. You CAN make good stuff, but it just takes more time. And if you're trying for a neutral for gin, it's gonna take even more time vs whiskey, rum, or tequila.

Keep reading! +1 to above advice to not making cuts based on ABV or "this jar # X of Y taken, or is xxx mL into the run." I use a stainless steel straw, some distilled water, & a shot glass to determine heads/hearts/tails.

If you keep using the same exact recipe on the same rig, that's when you can start using ABV as a "signal" (but not the absolute determiner) of where to expect the cuts to be.

Getting to a neutral tasting spirit in a pot still is very difficult. Toss out any of those Love Brewing or other You Tube videos you may have seen. They're strictly to push flavoring essences to mask the "bity-ness" of 1x distillation. You're likely gonna have to do 3x (or more). I would recommend getting the botanical basket that clips into the underside of the lid & fill it with some copper saddles to help your end-game product.

Use that search bar in upper right of the HD screen. There's lots of good advice, recipes, procedures for AirStills.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by LWTCS »

I'd put another fermentation bucket into service.
Strip all your batches. Make cuts or not.
Combine stripped batches and make tight cuts.
Dilute to about where a barrel strength finished distillate will render. Run it.
Make tight cuts again.
Add your gin flavoring adjunct incrementally. Take days to do it.

Unless I don't understand what you are doing.....
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Colqld
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Good Morning all,
Firstly, big 'Thank You' to all who have answered my post, gives a newbie some confidence.
I will be putting second fermentation bucket in place (LWTCS) as otherwise it is going to take a little too long for what I am intending.
In saying that the extra bucket will also give me another practice of working out heads/hearts/tails.
I like the idea of the copper saddles in the gin basket(Rubberdick71), this is something I have read about but info on this seems to go both ways - some say it does help, - I do use the ceramic saddles in the still itself.
Biggest take away for me I think is get a second bucket going, get the copper saddles, chuck the first 50, collect the next 200 and set aside, then collect in jars (might take these down to 75ml) and air them out overnight then do by taste / smell. Smell should be an interesting one, I don't have much of a sense of smell at the moment due to Spring - darn hayfever :(
Lids off, coffee filters (Saltbush Bill - read a lot of your posts)
Lets see how the next wash goes - updates in around 4 weeks?
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by bcook608 »

Colqld wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:00 pm Good Morning all,
Firstly, big 'Thank You' to all who have answered my post, gives a newbie some confidence.
I will be putting second fermentation bucket in place (LWTCS) as otherwise it is going to take a little too long for what I am intending.
In saying that the extra bucket will also give me another practice of working out heads/hearts/tails.
I like the idea of the copper saddles in the gin basket(Rubberdick71), this is something I have read about but info on this seems to go both ways - some say it does help, - I do use the ceramic saddles in the still itself.
Biggest take away for me I think is get a second bucket going, get the copper saddles, chuck the first 50, collect the next 200 and set aside, then collect in jars (might take these down to 75ml) and air them out overnight then do by taste / smell. Smell should be an interesting one, I don't have much of a sense of smell at the moment due to Spring - darn hayfever :(
Lids off, coffee filters (Saltbush Bill - read a lot of your posts)
Lets see how the next wash goes - updates in around 4 weeks?
I would add the copper. Worst case scenario it doesn't do anything different than the ceramic (if you believe the doubters) and best case scenario it prevents sulfides from being brought over into your distillate. Why not take the preventative course?

Also, I would collect everything after the first 50-75ml into jars so you can see/smell/taste how things evolve throughout your run. At least while you're getting the feel for how to run. Once you have a few runs of the same recipe under your belt, that probably won't be necessary because you'll know you never put anything in from (for example) jars 1-3, but it'll still be a good exercise to see if you can taste/smell any differences between them.

Also, if you're having a hard time detecting the smells/tastes you want to eliminate, some people dilute down below 40% while tasting to pick up the more subtle nasties that might be present. So if you have a couple of jars that you're unsure about, take another sample and dilute it even more to see if it helps make those elements more pronounced. I did this with my last run and I was very happy to know that I saved myself from a couple of jars that would have ruined the white dog (for unaged drinking). If I were barrel aging, it would have been ok, but I wanted to keep a large portion of this last batch white.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by rubberduck71 »

Colqld wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:00 pm I like the idea of the copper saddles in the gin basket(Rubberdick71), this is something I have read about but info on this seems to go both ways - some say it does help, - I do use the ceramic saddles in the still itself.
Uh, that's RubberDUCK, but I have been called worse!!! :esurprised:

I also use the ceramic saddles as boil control -- they help prevent pukes from big bubbles being "chopped up" into small ones.

If/when you go to whiskey/rum/tequila: the 1.5 technique is a great time saver & way to bring over good flavor from your ferment.

Duck <-- emphasis on the U! :D
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Colqld
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

OH good grief. I am so sorry!!!!!!
I can’t even blame auto correct for that one??
Maybe next time I will put my glasses on AND proof read before I post. :oops:
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Avalir »

Reading through, it looks like you got a lot of good feedback. I also had a couple things I'd like to add from my personal experience with sugar when I first started (I just do AG now). I never bothered following a recipe as my logic was you learn more with failure than you do with success, but that quickly can leads to months of frustration and disappointment. I'll also give a disclaimer that looking back, I did a lot wrong with sugar before I abandoned it. So, especially since you're running a pot still you're going to end up with significantly more blurring between cuts and also more taste than if you ran with a nice column or reflux (not saying you should run out and get one unless you want to, I started with a plated column and reflux and now 99% of what I do is with a basic pot still). From my memory, sugar burn was inevitable for me, but sometimes you can do things to reduce it (again, haven't used sugar in a while and I know now I did a lot wrong, so I'm sure the folks more experienced with it get far better results or may even say otherwise). I'm unsure how much sugar you're using as I'm unfamiliar with the recipe, but reducing the sugar content with lower yeast stress and production of off flavors, so it's something to consider. If you're after a neutral, letting the wash clear before running will aide that.
I also didn't see mention to the water you use for dilution - which from experience I've found to be a really undersold topic. When I started I used municipal water and I had good results for a while, then suddenly I noticed a drastic decrease in my quality. For about 4 months I was scratching my head trying to find the cause, it seemed like my heads wouldn't end until I reached the tails. It wasn't until I tried to reflux to salvage that I kept getting a gross Smirnoff-like taste but stronger. Eventually I decided to taste my water (I'm not a big water drinker and would drink from the fridge filter when I did), but turns out that's what I was tasting - I believe there had been a spike in the chlorine content. I've since moved and am on tasty tasty well water and I have zero problems using it for any application. So if you're not already doing it, I'd strongly recommend minimally using water that's adequately filtered. For neutrals, RO is probably your best bet if you have an RO filter or know someone who does (for dilution of low wines and already distilled alcohol/spirits only, not for fermentation).
Hope my little rant was able to give you a little more to consider/look at. Good luck to you and welcome aboard!
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Ok, so it's been a little while now. I have been putting into practice some of the advice from all who have contributed.
Between this and my brand new copy of Home Distilling :) I am learning.
Avalir - I am sorry I missed your comments. At the moment I am just using tap water, again whilst I am learning. I did try to use filtered water but something seemed to go wrong so I switched back to normal tap. Here in Perth our tap water is relatively good quality. Once I get through Christmas and have more time I thought I might then go to completely filtered water.
I am running my product through a carbon filter before adding essences.

Sugar wash seems to be going ok, it seems to take longer to ferment out so I started up my second barrel. I am still working with this as trying to keep a product consistent, my still seems to be putting out a fairly similar product each time. ATM I amtaking very deep cuts Ie: really only keeping about 600 - 700ml out of about 1400.
Ditching the first 100 to keep it safe and all the rest back into feints.
I have been diluting down to 40% and leaving overnight, this has definitely helped me to work out the smells. It also makes it a bit easier for me when I do the 'taste'. Getting better at finding the point where it goes from the really hot alcohol burn to something a bit more palatable.
I have now done my first Feints run - a little muddy but not too bad - I have kept the feints from this as well.
Can I re-use them?? Is there anything left or best to completely ditch?
My other option was to use to bulk out a strip run.

2x Pink Gin currently doing what they need to do in the cupboard (sorry, I am using a flavouring, at least whilst I am still learning) and an Elderflower as well.
One of my colleagues has asked me to do a Chilli?? Gin. Not too sure about this but I did do a dummy run and add it to some Elderflower Cordial I had just to see if they would even complement each other. Surprisingly the answer was yes. The end result was the usual sweet but then a bite of green chilli at the end. I am not sure what mixer you would use but.. eh! They can decide on that one.
Anyone who has made a Chilli Gin before I would love to hear from you - what / how.

I am planning on seeing out these next two washes and then trying the TPW - how does everyone feel about this?
I have also had someone tell me to have a go at a Kale wash?
Does anyone have any advice about these?? The end result I am looking for at the moment is a smooth neutral - basically as a base for flavorings until I get more experience/time under my belt.

Cheers all

Col
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Dathhu »

If you're running an air still, I probably wouldn't do a tpw myself. I can definately pick up the tomato on strip runs through a pot still and still pick out something not quite neutral even after refluxing.

If you're going to carbon filter, you might be okay. TPW is cheap, easy and just requires a trip to the supermarket to make.

For trying to get as neutral as possible out of an air still/pot still though, I'd probably stick with something like wineos, shadys. Might cost a little bit more up front for some DAP, but coat wise works out cheaper in the end. Ferments a lot cleaner.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by squigglefunk »

Colqld wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:20 amThe end result I am looking for at the moment is a smooth neutral
I think you might be stuck buying neutral spirits to make your gin, etc. or buying a different still to make the neutral first.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Archee72 »

‘I have been diluting down to 40% and leaving overnight, this has definitely helped me to work out the smells”

I think you usually don’t dilute but leave it full strength to air out overnight? The more learned folk here may be able to confirm this?..
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Stonecutter »

rubberduck71 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:28 pm
Colqld wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:00 pm I like the idea of the copper saddles in the gin basket(Rubberdick71), this is something I have read about but info on this seems to go both ways - some say it does help, - I do use the ceramic saddles in the still itself.
Uh, that's RubberDUCK, but I have been called worse!!! :esurprised:

I also use the ceramic saddles as boil control -- they help prevent pukes from big bubbles being "chopped up" into small ones.

If/when you go to whiskey/rum/tequila: the 1.5 technique is a great time saver & way to bring over good flavor from your ferment.

Duck <-- emphasis on the U! :D
That’s f**king hilarious right there man. No offense Duck71 :lol:

Colqld I wouldn’t worry too much about filtered water if you like your drinking water then it should be fine for whatever you need.
Not sure what you mean by a “muddy” feints run?
I’m not a neutral guy but Shady’s Sugar Shine is easy to make and ferments out clean.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Colqld wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:20 am I am planning on seeing out these next two washes and then trying the TPW - how does everyone feel about this?
Ive made and refluxed my fair share of TPW over the years , later on I recommended it to a lot of newbs on different forums as a good wash to start out with for neutral making.
These days it wouldn't be my first choice.....my go to now is Shadys Sugar Shine.......clean, neutral and easy.
Having said that tomato paste is easier to get than DAP.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

I am currently using Wino’s sugar wash. It is going fine, taking longer than I had anticipated. I am trying to keep up to a good temp but we have had a few cold days which of course extends fermenting time. I tell myself “patience young Padawan”..
When I say muddy I meant that point where I think I smell acetone? Not really sure? Think it is clean but then there is something else there...
There was a reason I went for Wino’s over Shady but just can’t think what is was for the moment. Will have another look at it when time comes.
Any takers on the Chilli Gin?
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Ok, I have made the initial product, base and I have added my essence to make Pink Gin. It has been sitting now for about a month hopefully doing what it should be doing. One thing I have noticed is that when I open up my jars there is still a big strong burst of alcohol fumes. It is not that burn the nose hairs off but is definitely a smell of strong alcohol.
Have I done something wrong? I did air out the smaller jars before I combined them and when I had a smell it was 'clean' for want of a better word. Should I keep the lids off for a while and just keep them covered with a coffee filter etc?
The taste seems to be fine.
I am using essences because I am not at the stage to be able to distill through a gin basket. I will get there, just not yet.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by NZChris »

What is the abv?

Most of my gins are done with the botanicals in the boiler. An Airstill is fine for this.
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by shadylane »

Colqld wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:28 pm

One thing I have noticed is that when I open up my jars there is still a big strong burst of alcohol fumes. It is not that burn the nose hairs off but is definitely a smell of strong alcohol. Have I done something wrong?
I'd expect the strong smell of alcohol when opening a jar of it.... :lol:
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Yummyrum »

shadylane wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:15 pm
Colqld wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:28 pm

One thing I have noticed is that when I open up my jars there is still a big strong burst of alcohol fumes. It is not that burn the nose hairs off but is definitely a smell of strong alcohol. Have I done something wrong?
I'd expect the strong smell of alcohol when opening a jar of it.... :lol:
So right Shady . Just taking a wiff from a ferment thats at 10% abv is strong
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Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

Ok, so I have decided the first lot of Gin's were a definite fail. Not just the fumes but even after mixing with the essence for the past month / 5 weeks still hot. Ther are currently watered down and going through another strip run :( I am thinking I will run them again, take off in 100's keep what is hopefully the hearts and the rest back into Feitnts again.

A couple of questions/opinions please if you feel like it.
I am essentially discarding my first 100 as a precaution as always.
Take off the distillate in 100ml lots, airing overnight (undiluted), and then looking at them. Smell/taste etc. So far in all my runs, the percentage of alcohol is staying fairly consistent.
When I dilute down to approx 40% I am definitely starting to pick up the difference in smell and taste. My Jars 6 -9 and sometimes 10 are definitely better than all the others. So I am considering this hearts. Jars 7 / 8 usually have little to no smell which is what I am after. Still a little hot???
I have run through the filter at least once.
What is everyone's opinion on me collecting all my hearts together, diluting down to at least 30% maybe even 20%, and then running through again? Collect in my jars (100) and then look for hearts again etc? This is then a double distill (if I don't count strip run).
Another option is to run through a carbon filter a couple of times.... I may do this in addition to the double distill.

Brew shop recommended the above so thought I would give it a go.
They have also advised that the max I can get out is really only 300ml hearts. Consider the first 300 as Heads, the next 300 Hearts, next 300 / 400 Tails. They are adamant that will not get better than this. One reason I am questioning is that it is not until jar 6 (which is almost 700ml into it) that I am getting a product that has very little smell / not too harsh a taste.
Lots of people are probably going to tell me that they are just trying to sell me more carbon filters/consumables I know.

On a new note, I have decided to have a go at TPW - see how that one works out. I know a lot of people recommend this for a clean neutral. It is going to be interesting to see the difference.
Colqld
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2022 2:35 am

Re: May I have some advice please :)

Post by Colqld »

NZ Chris

ABV is approx 38%. I say approx as I may have overestimated slightly, it is probably just under.
I am thinking of having a go at using the botanicals as you suggest. I picked some up on my last trip. I did think that the essences were the way to go to start with whilst I am learning but they don't seem to have worked.
Maybe with the first lot of tpw.
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