Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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ThomasBrewer
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Seems like a lot of wasted energy leaving the system when the bottom chamber is drained. Balancing pesssure/vacuum during each "cycle" also sounds challenging.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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ThomasBrewer wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:04 am Seems like a lot of wasted energy leaving the system when the bottom chamber is drained. Balancing pesssure/vacuum during each "cycle" also sounds challenging.
On the one hand you are precisely correct.

To be fair however, batch is more wasteful with respect to energy consumption.
That's why (with respect to energy consumption) the SD solution is a better ( in theory) system.

Distilling spirits is a resource suck. Always has been.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by squigglefunk »

i mean couldn't you look at every manufacturing process as a "resource suck" and not all capture and reuse heat as much as a distillery?
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

ThomasBrewer wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:04 am Seems like a lot of wasted energy leaving the system when the bottom chamber is drained. Balancing pesssure/vacuum during each "cycle" also sounds challenging.
Really no difference than draining any still of spent mash to prepair it for the next run. All the chambers contain hot liquid. Even the top chamber liquid is preheated by the vapor stream as it makes it's way to the condenser.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Setsumi »

ThomasBrewer wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:04 am Seems like a lot of wasted energy leaving the system when the bottom chamber is drained. Balancing pesssure/vacuum during each "cycle" also sounds challenging.
At least some energy is tranfered in the pre heater chamber. And you should have recovered most alchohol. On energy efficiency I guess the biggest drain would be on the first cycle when you heat and dump water, thereafter you use stillage... but Larry is right, you have to spend energy to get a return.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Ben »

I watched that video last night, I feel like some of what the guy is saying is... salesmanship?

I don't buy the 4psi pressure increase being responsible for the change in flavor. I have some other questions about the flavor change, and it's hard to know since the distiller is using heirloom grain rather than what's commonly used by other distilleries. It makes side by sides impossible. My reason for questioning it is there are some high Rocky Mountain distilleries that are making great, full bodied products, at over 8000 feet of elevation. Meaning they are close to 4 psi deficit, and have lower boiling points. Also, all of the compounds in the still are effected by the atmospheric pressure boiling point, and while each will react a little differently it seems unreasonable to me that this is the main contributor.

Let's say for arguments sake the still is capable of extracting more oils, and for the sake of the same argument that the extra oils aren't coming up from the extra pressure. My assumption is the extra oils are coming through due to the alcohol content of the vapor being injected from the chamber below. Even if it's a low percentage, it seems like hot, alcoholic steam would be a great solvent for oils stuck in the mash.

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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by zach »

Ben wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:04 am Let's say for arguments sake the still is capable of extracting more oils, and for the sake of the same argument that the extra oils aren't coming up from the extra pressure.
With increased pressure, the saturation temperature of the ethanol water mixture in the lower chamber is higher and the solubility of the oil in the vapor is higher. It's the higher temperature that improves the oil carry over.

I couldn't find a solubility chart for oil in ethanol vapor, but have used solubility charts for oils in refrigerant vapors versus temperature in my day job. The general trend is the higher the temp, the greater the solubility of oil in vapor. ( When the vapor is a solvent)
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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Ben wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:04 am My assumption is the extra oils are coming through due to the alcohol content of the vapor being injected from the chamber below. Even if it's a low percentage, it seems like hot, alcoholic steam would be a great solvent for oils stuck in the mash.
I do not see it as such.. the 3rd chamber is basically dry of alcohol after being run in the first two chambers.. so what is coming through or off is some thing other than alcohol, and possibly boiling water.. and the video refer to it as "oils" which I don't believe are affected not by the pressure but by the higher temp possible due the the upper two creating the pressure..

We as home stiller don't go down far enough in our strip.. most of us stop in the range of 205 - 206*F (boiler vapor temp) for an overall between 30 - 35% ABV.. if we were to go to say 210 or higher, maybe the extra flavor still in the mash would start to come off.. but never tried it on a mash..

I for one strip down to 208 - 208.5*F when I strip for rum, and I know that between 205 - 208*F, I pull off some "sweet water with that range, and I know that the last jar is always a little sweeter than the previous ones.. also the low wine coming off is quite cloudy and can't be filtered even if it allow to sit for a week.. (but I've also experience on my last run if I lower the power that the low wine is hardly cloudy but need to experiment on this) so reason I haven't gone further is that it is a slow process at that point in the run.. but next time I will make the effort to go deeper and see what out there..

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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Ben »

zach wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:18 am
Ben wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:04 am Let's say for arguments sake the still is capable of extracting more oils, and for the sake of the same argument that the extra oils aren't coming up from the extra pressure.
With increased pressure, the saturation temperature of the ethanol water mixture in the lower chamber is higher and the solubility of the oil in the vapor is higher. It's the higher temperature that improves the oil carry over.

That might be right... Except solubility of gasses increases at higher pressures and decreases at higher temperatures (Henry's law). Thats why the boil point of the ethanol water mix increases.

We aren't talking about a gas, we do not putting enough heat into the distillate to evaporate the oils. They are coming through via entrainment or cling, or because they are dissolved in the ethanol vapor mix. And the boil point of the liquid (oil, water, alcohol) increases as the pressure increases. I doubt that is a linear relationship, but without knowing the exact oils coming through it's a little hard to figure out how their boil points are effected.

My guess is the temperature is having much less effect on the oil than the pressure. Most grain oil boil temps ASL are somewhere north of 400°f.

You can use API charts to rationalize the behavior of oil in a solvent/water blend. What comes out of the earth is mostly water, then solvents mixed with oils.
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The other reason I disagree is that those oils are then going through 2 more chambers, each at a lower pressure at which point if the pressure is the culprit it would loose that solubility and stay trapped in the other mixes.
StillerBoy wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 10:26 am
I do not see it as such.. the 3rd chamber is basically dry of alcohol after being run in the first two chambers..
Except it isn't, and neither is the 2nd chamber. Both are contributing "some" percentage of ethanol to what hits the first chamber. This is totally up to the operator and how much they strip before transferring the liquids to the next chamber. It should be nearly dry of alcohol by the time it's drained but it would be very inefficient to extract all of the alcohol only at the first chamber. In fact dude states in his video that the boil point should be about 201° and raises it to 220. Which means its somewhere around 8% alcohol in the bottom pot. This makes sense, since its a batched still (semi-continuous). The first batch in the sequence is 3 chambers of the same alcohol content. So if we assume chamber 2 is acting as a single plate the alcohol content of the vapor entering the first chamber is somewhere around 60% at the beginning of a run. It drops through each phase as more alcohol is extracted.

It would be helpful if you would talk about your take-offs in terms of alcohol content. You talk about running to 208°. At 203° I am boiling pure water... by talking about the alcohol content you get something that anyone can relate to regardless of their location. I have no idea what your elevation or effective elevation are so it's hard to draw conclusions.


I appreciate the dialogue on this, would really like to better understand.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by subbrew »

My question is how do you start up and shut down? For start I see no way but to fill each chamber with wash and start running it. It would run differently because the lower chambers would all have more alcohol than they would once the semi-continuous mode is established. And I assume on shut down you would either run the last run with the preheater empty and then just shut down, leaving alcohol in the still. Or run each chamber down until the last one is the bottom chamber acting like a pot still at the end of the run.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by StillerBoy »

Ben wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:26 am It would be helpful if you would talk about your take-offs in terms of alcohol content. You talk about running to 208°. At 203° I am boiling pure water... by talking about the alcohol content you get something that anyone can relate to regardless of their location. I have no idea what your elevation or effective elevation are so it's hard to draw conclusions.
I have some notes on the strip run (rum) from a few batches back.. and my elevation of my location is 1300'.. and to some extent, in agreement that there is "some" alcohol left, based on where the operator and cut off point at transfer, if temp is used and ABV on the 1st chamber (assuming the run is done similar to a pot run and cuts, so the tails would be left behind) .. and the notes (below) are used as reference point as to when I start collecting for the "sweet water"..

The notes I have on the "sweet water" starts at 205*F for 20% ABV and at 208*F it's at 8%.. so there is still some alcohol left.. it has cross my mind to go deeper but at that state in the run, the take rate is slow, like 350ml per 15 min, and that's at 3500w of power on a 5500w element.. and when power is increased (4000w), the low wine is very cloudy where as at 3000w, it's just a little cloudy, and I use that "sweet water" to dilute the spirit down with instead of water..

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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

Here's another article about the still and a diagram. Chamber 3 is the pot heated by steam. Chambers 2 and 3 are basically thumpers and the top chamber is just a preheater for the mash that enters there first. The article was written in May of 2021 and they now have their 3 Chambered Rye for sale. I have a bottle coming. It's not cheap but it's something I just needed to try.
https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-styl ... ber-still/
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by ThomasBrewer »

This photo from 6-Row's link above gives a little more information on the plumbing (the valves are in incorrect positions on purpose, most likely). There's an axillary equalization tube that runs the whole length of the tower.

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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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Valves in incorrect positions?
How so?
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

Looks like all the valves are open.
I figure they thought the pics would look better that way. :lol:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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shadylane wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:47 pm Looks like all the valves are open.
I figure they thought the pics would look better that way. :lol:
Oh right.
I misunderstood.

Why is the handle position relevant when the still isn't running???
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

The more I look at the process the more I'm almost confused. :lol:

Lets see if I have this right.

It's a one run and done steam distillation that takes the hearts cut and recycles the backset.
Backset is drained to the chamber below and heated again to make steam to drive the top chamber that gets refilled with preheated mash.

posting with larry
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

LWTCS wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:57 pm
shadylane wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:47 pm Looks like all the valves are open.
I figure they thought the pics would look better that way. :lol:
Oh right.
I misunderstood.

Why is the handle position relevant when the still isn't running???
Pressure equalization I would imagine. Opening the drain valve might cause the pot to cave in.
Last edited by 6 Row Joe on Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

LWTCS wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:57 pm
Why is the handle position relevant when the still isn't running???
I'm just guessing now.
Looks like the rig has all the drains and CIP valves open. It could be configured for a wash down.
Most likely they thought it looked prettier with all the valve handles in line with the plumbing. :lol:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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shadylane wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:06 pm The more I look at the process the more I'm almost confused. :lol:

Lets see if I have this right.

It's a one run and done steam distillation that takes the hearts cut and recycles the backset.
Backset is drained to the chamber below and heated again to make steam to drive the top chamber that gets refilled with preheated mash.

posting with larry
The bottom chamber is the only one that is heated (with steam) When that mash vaporizes it rises up into the second chamber and bubbles through the mash there just like a doubler or a thumper. When that mash get's hot enough the vapor rises into the next chamber just like the second one. When that mash vaporizes, the vapor rises to the top chamber and travels through coils heating up the mash there and then on to the condenser. When the run is complete the mash in the bottom chamber may be only 10% and is drained out. It is then filled with the mash in the second chamber the third chamber drains into the second chamber and the preheated mash into the third chamber. The top chamber (preheat) is filled with fresh mash from the mash tun and the whole heating process starts over. Now that everything is cycled once, the mash in the bottom chamber is close to vapor temp already because it has been preheated and ran through the top 2 chambers. It's just a double thumper with a preheater on top.
Last edited by 6 Row Joe on Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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6 Row Joe wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:08 pm
LWTCS wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:57 pm
shadylane wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:47 pm Looks like all the valves are open.
I figure they thought the pics would look better that way. :lol:
Oh right.
I misunderstood.

Why is the handle position relevant when the still isn't running???
Pressure equalization I would imagine. Opening the drain valve might cause the pot to cave in.
Each chamber is vented in order to prevent a vaccum collapse. The vents get opened prior to liquid transfer.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

6 Row Joe wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:25 pm

The bottom chamber is the only one that is heated (indirectly with steam) When that mash vaporizes it rises up into the second chamber and bubbles through the mash there just like a doubler or a thumper.
Steam is injected into the bottom chamber.
But only the top chamber is fed mash.
All the chambers below the top one are being filled with backset from the one above it.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

shadylane wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:04 pm
6 Row Joe wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:25 pm

The bottom chamber is the only one that is heated (indirectly with steam) When that mash vaporizes it rises up into the second chamber and bubbles through the mash there just like a doubler or a thumper.
Steam is injected into the bottom chamber.
But only the top chamber is fed mash.
All the chambers below the top one are being filled with backset from the one above it.
Exactly.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by NormandieStill »

I'm perhaps over-simplifying but it looks to be a very efficient way of running a double thumped to a very specific protocol. I would imagine that to start it up you fill just the top thumper and the preheater. The steam injected into the bottom will still work it's way up to the top. When the wash in the top chamber is spent(ish) you can drain everything down one chamber and fire it up again.

I do wonder what they do with the distillate from the first 2 cycles though. Does it all go to feints? It presumably is less strongly flavoured than from a "full" cycle so you maybe wouldn't include it in the final product (although that would depend on how many cycles you did in one run).

From a hobbyist perspective the issue I could see is having enough wash to get past the warm-up cycles. Imagine you did 4 strips per spirit with the volume of one chamber being a strip. If you only kept the hearts from "full" cycles then a full run would net you the distillate from half of your wash (although the double thumbed would probably mean that the wash in the top at the end was a little more enriched). To get the full benefit and keep run times manageable you might need to build a scaled down version where a single chamber would take perhaps 1/4 of a "normal" volume.

And after all that, now I want one! :wink:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by bcook608 »

I imagine when starting, they'd just fill the chambers from the bottom up and run it as normal. Heating all 4 chambers during the 1st run, then switching into semi-continuous operations until the mash has been completely used up.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I am sure they fill them all up and turn on the steam to heat the bottom chamber. The bottom chamber is the only one with "spent" wash. The other 2 chambers are enriched with flavors, oils, and alcohol from the previous chamber.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by bcook608 »

I wonder if this could be scaled down to a series of 18"-24" diameter boilers for hobby scale. I'm assuming that one of the key design features is that the 4 chambers are equal in size so having a column on top of a large boiler would likely not produce the same effect.

This has the gears turning, that's for sure!
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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bcook608 wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:04 am I wonder if this could be scaled down to a series of 18"-24" diameter boilers for hobby scale. I'm assuming that one of the key design features is that the 4 chambers are equal in size so having a column on top of a large boiler would likely not produce the same effect.

This has the gears turning, that's for sure!
I think you could get a similar result by running pot and 2 thumpers and transferring the mash in the same order... so long as you don't mind the manual labor :)
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by bcook608 »

Ben wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:21 am
bcook608 wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:04 am I wonder if this could be scaled down to a series of 18"-24" diameter boilers for hobby scale. I'm assuming that one of the key design features is that the 4 chambers are equal in size so having a column on top of a large boiler would likely not produce the same effect.

This has the gears turning, that's for sure!
I think you could get a similar result by running pot and 2 thumpers and transferring the mash in the same order... so long as you don't mind the manual labor :)
I most definitely mind the manual labor lol :P
I'd rather spend time building it to scale hahaha
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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Ben wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:21 am
bcook608 wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:04 am I wonder if this could be scaled down to a series of 18"-24" diameter boilers for hobby scale. I'm assuming that one of the key design features is that the 4 chambers are equal in size so having a column on top of a large boiler would likely not produce the same effect.

This has the gears turning, that's for sure!
I think you could get a similar result by running pot and 2 thumpers and transferring the mash in the same order... so long as you don't mind the manual labor :)
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