Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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6 Row Joe
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Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I stumbled across this a few days ago and found it interesting. Worth a look see.

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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by NZChris »

Thanks for posting that. It seems that one of my, 'out there' but unbuilt, still designs, has been done before and might be worth working on after all.

Interesting about the increase in yield due to modern grains. One of my tricks to boost flavor is to remove some flavorless middle jars from a spirit run. As a hobby distiller without a few acres to grow old grain types on, removing some boring jars from the middle of a run is a much more doable option, plus it gives me something to put through my Bokakob for GNS.
If a conversion hasn't done as well as you hoped, you may get a lower yield, but with more traditional and intense flavors.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

Sure.
3 chamber stills are also used in the Caribbean for rum production.

Todd is a pretty smart dude.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Oatmeal »

Interesting. Boston Apothecary has a write up on this. Connects a few dots...
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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...........
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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And a concept we've been toying with.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

Interesting stuff fellas.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by squigglefunk »

that is neat
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

The difference between the the two designs is that the original design is a semi continuous system and the system in the 3D model is intended to be fully continuous feed.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Dancing4dan »

Thank you for posting that. A lot of food for thought there.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

Here is the Vulcan down in the Caribbean.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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Here is another video:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Setsumi »

I am ver intrigued by the three chamber still, especially the fact that it can be semi continuous. I have 2 questions to Larry.

On hobby scale for flavour and within the confines of hobby hours (less continuous) would there be any gains on a 3 chamber than a plater/flute or even pot and thumper?

Second question, on the model from SD with the rectifying column what flavour benifit do you get from the stewing in the chambers after retification?
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by 6 Row Joe »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:10 am Thank you for posting that. A lot of food for thought there.
It sure does get a guy thinking.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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Setsumi wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:26 am I am ver intrigued by the three chamber still, especially the fact that it can be semi continuous. I have 2 questions to Larry.

On hobby scale for flavour and within the confines of hobby hours (less continuous) would there be any gains on a 3 chamber than a plater/flute or even pot and thumper?

Second question, on the model from SD with the rectifying column what flavour benifit do you get from the stewing in the chambers after retification?
Hi Setsumi,
I think Todd's assertion that the additional internal pressure on this type of system acting to liberate more oils over into the finished spirit is one of the the keys for a more robust flavor. Other types of systems don't ordinarily have that kind of pressure. In fact some folks have verbalized how any pressure at all is (and I'm paraphrasing here),,,,wrong.

On the "stewing" question, the prolonged exposure or longer dwell time to heat input, this promotes esterification. I always try to think about food in this instance. Think about cooking meat for example. Meat smells good when tossed on the grill. But when it gets to a state of doneness, it smells even better. The same is true for bread. And pasta sauce for that matter. I think its a bit more than just a Maillard reaction though I am completely unqualified to debate that.

IMO, the 3 chamber still is simply a stacked double thumper that has a different process flow.

Here is a more classic aesthetic. This is a stripper only.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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I see a new project in my future
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Setsumi »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:21 am
Setsumi wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:26 am I am ver intrigued by the three chamber still, especially the fact that it can be semi continuous. I have 2 questions to Larry.

On hobby scale for flavour and within the confines of hobby hours (less continuous) would there be any gains on a 3 chamber than a plater/flute or even pot and thumper?

Second question, on the model from SD with the rectifying column what flavour benifit do you get from the stewing in the chambers after retification?
Hi Setsumi,
I think Todd's assertion that the additional internal pressure on this type of system acting to liberate more oils over into the finished spirit is one of the the keys for a more robust flavor. Other types of systems don't ordinarily have that kind of pressure. In fact some folks have verbalized how any pressure at all is (and I'm paraphrasing here),,,,wrong.

On the "stewing" question, the prolonged exposure or longer dwell time to heat input, this promotes esterification. I always try to think about food in this instance. Think about cooking meat for example. Meat smells good when tossed on the grill. But when it gets to a state of doneness, it smells even better. The same is true for bread. And pasta sauce for that matter. I think its a bit more than just a Maillard reaction though I am completely unqualified to debate that.

IMO, the 3 chamber still is simply a stacked double thumper that has a different process flow.

Here is a more classic aesthetic. This is a stripper only.
Larry,
Oils and esterification, I get that it contributes to flavour and I would like to experience running this still in my shed... can you discuss operation on hobby level? Lets start with just batch. Load top chamber and boil on steam? When do you drop the pot ale to the second and 3rd chamber?

I gues if you drop the pot ale in the top chamber you have to refil the top chamber with beer... immediately you are semi continuous. Beautiful.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

My understanding is that the still runs based on target temperatures for each chamber?
I don't know what those are beyond the temp in the bottom chamber being hot enough to ensure that all of the alcohol has flashed (oh dear, there is that flash word again) out of the liquid bed.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by stillness »

I like your 3 chamber drawing. Looks similar to your other continuous rigs, except the stripper has been replaced with a giant three way humper thumper.

So, probably not as fast as those giant perf plated columns? But allows longer dwell times for flavor reasons... As well as the extra pressure, which I gotta read more about.

So, trying to get my head around this thing. Here's what I got... for posterity. Please correct as needed.

Steam only goes into the bottom chamber, and there's some sort of giant bubble cap/vapor disperser in the next two chambers, which we can't see very well. And those two chambers overflow back down as they fill up. They fill up depending on the beer feed rate, which goes through the bottom heat exchanger and then to the top chamber.
The vapor from the top chamber goes into the rectifier boiler, as the heat source and product. (Hard to see, but the stream pipe goes down so it's below the liquid level in the boiler) The boiler overflows back to the top chamber (probably with option to dump back to beer well, as you've mentioned in others).
The rectifier has a delphflag under 2 plates you can draw product from. And at the top... is just a shotgun condenser? (Or maybe it's also a temp controlled dephlg of sorts, that let's heads through?)

I like it. I'm curious about the trade off in efficiency. How much is that added flavor gonna cost you.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by stillness »

Gonna throw this in here:

viewtopic.php?t=77886

I've never built this. All my projects consist of working on the house. But it's a thought.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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stillness wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:32 am I like your 3 chamber drawing. Looks similar to your other continuous rigs, except the stripper has been replaced with a giant three way humper thumper.

So, probably not as fast as those giant perf plated columns? But allows longer dwell times for flavor reasons... As well as the extra pressure, which I gotta read more about.

So, trying to get my head around this thing. Here's what I got... for posterity. Please correct as needed.

Steam only goes into the bottom chamber, and there's some sort of giant bubble cap/vapor disperser in the next two chambers, which we can't see very well. And those two chambers overflow back down as they fill up. They fill up depending on the beer feed rate, which goes through the bottom heat exchanger and then to the top chamber.They are basically oversized bubble caps. The height of the stand pipe / cap matches the max fill level allowed by the external downcomers.
The vapor from the top chamber goes into the rectifier boiler, as the heat source and product. (Hard to see, but the stream pipe goes down so it's below the liquid level in the boiler) The boiler overflows back to the top chamber (probably with option to dump back to beer well, as you've mentioned in others).Yes the max fill level / return back to the top chamber for the spirt side thumper is determined by that pipe with the trap on it. Though I am not confident that pressure in the top chamber won't force liquid in from that pipe? I may mechanize that process with an automatic valve, check valve, pump, and automatic liquid level sensors. I was hoping to not have to mechanize that part of the process, but just not confident about the pressure.
The rectifier has a delphflag under 2 plates you can draw product from. And at the top... is just a shotgun condenser? (Or maybe it's also a temp controlled dephlg of sorts, that let's heads through?)The top dephleg only allows enough vapor to pass to allow for an on the fly heads cut.

I like it. I'm curious about the trade off in efficiency. How much is that added flavor gonna cost you.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

6 Row Joe wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:17 pm I stumbled across this a few days ago and found it interesting. Worth a look see.
Thanks for the info.
I had to watch it a couple times.
While slowly increasing my BAC, before I could figure out how it works and why. :lol:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

The operation of the still is pretty archaic.
"Busy as a one handed piano player " comes to mind.

Modern automation would be such a creature comfort.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by howie »

all very interesting.
one thing that crossed my mind about pressure and increased estrification.............
is that what is happening when i hold my rum spirit run in full reflux before continuing with pot still mode?
because the full reflux creates a small amount of pressure in the column. :think:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

I had the basic idea explained to me around 50 years ago.
But I didn't understand what Mousey was trying to explain.
The top chamber is doing the distilling.
The rest of the chambers are stripping the top chambers spent mash of alcohol using steam.
Long story short, preheated mash goes in the top chamber and is heated by the vapors from the chambers below. Each chamber is drained to the lower one until by the time the spent mash gets boiled one last time by steam in the bottom chamber, there isn't any alcohol left, then the bottom chamber is drained to make room for what's left in the middle chamber and so forth.

On a side note.
From that long ago, I can still remember the words and especially the smells coming from Mousey, the hogs outside and his room full of hunting dogs. But I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. :roll:
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

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shadylane wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:19 pm I had the basic idea explained to me around 50 years ago.
But I didn't understand what Mousey was trying to explain.
The top chamber is doing the distilling.
The rest of the chambers are stripping the top chambers spent mash of alcohol using steam.
Long story short, preheated mash goes in the top chamber and is heated by the vapors from the chambers below. Each chamber is drained to the lower one until by the time the spent mash gets boiled one last time by steam in the bottom chamber, there isn't any alcohol left, then the bottom chamber is drained to make room for what's left in the middle chamber and so forth.

On a side note.
From that long ago, I can still remember the words and especially the smells coming from Mousey, the hogs outside and his room full of hunting dogs. But I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. :roll:
Heat chamber #1 and the vapor goes through #2 like a thumper. #3 is just a pre heater (from the #2 vapor temp) because the mash is drained to the lower tank's when #1 is done. If you think about how it works, it isn't a lot different than a pot still with a thumper. Pot #3 on top is just a preheated for the mash.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by shadylane »

I'm drunk enough to be as sloppy as a soup sandwich. :lol:

6 row, unless I'm mistaken, Ya got the process upside down.
The preheater is on top. Chamber 1 is just below that.
Then chamber 2 and chamber 3 is on the bottom with steam being injected into it.

The majority of the alcohol is boiled out of chamber 1.
Then what's left is drained down to the next level to be boiled again.

The big difference is the 3 chamber still is working bass-ackwards from a normal series of thumpers.
The final proof doesn't increase much because chamber 1 is doing almost all the work.
AKA steam powered potstill. All the thumpers below #1 are being used to strip the very last alcohol out and sending the vapor to the top to heat chamber #1. That basically means the zero-proof sweet water that makes it to the bottom is being flashed with steam used to drive the stages above it.

Long story short, the ABV doesn't increase much.
But the process keeps more of the whiskey flavor while getting rid of most of the tails.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Went down this same rabbit hole 18 months ago when someone on Emptys forum posted up a link or was asking about them.....FullySilenced I think from memory.
The early stills where made of timber , some good diagrams of construction and what makes them tick at the bottom of this link.
https://www.vedelvendistillery.com/threechamberstill
At the 5.50 mark in this youtube .....the same one Larry put up they tell you exactly how they work.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

Yep, Shady has it.
There may be some confusion when discussing however.

The 3D drawing I posted for example shows 4 chambers. The very top being the preheater. This feature allows for better semi continuous processing speed.

The old diagram shows no preheater.

The SD concept is using an external tube and shell heat exchanger to preheat beer prior to (continuous) injection.
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Re: Leopold Brothers 3 chambered still

Post by LWTCS »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:33 pm Went down this same rabbit hole 18 months ago when someone on Emptys forum posted up a link or was asking about them.....FullySilenced I think from memory.
The early stills where made of timber , some good diagrams of construction and what makes them tick at the bottom of this link.
https://www.vedelvendistillery.com/threechamberstill
At the 5.50 mark in this youtube .....the same one Larry put up they tell you exactly how they work.

That's an excellent link Bill
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