banana/honey ferment

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squigglefunk
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banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

I got about 120 lbs of bananas about 3 weeks ago, I let them sit in the box until really ripe... some had gone too far but most were perfect. I like the skin to be full of big brown spots and nice and soft and thin. As they ripen the fruit is converting into sugars. Peeled them and threw the fruit into a 55 gallon fermenter. Added about 10 gallons of boiling water and smushed/stirrer the mix periodically for about 2 hrs. I dont use the peels as I have seen some mention, I might feed some to the goats.

While this was going on I was warming 12 lbs of honey in a hot water bath until runny. I dumped that into the must (is that what we call it?) and rinsed the gallon container out three times with hot water and added that in. Stirrer/smushed for another hr or so and the bananas were pretty much completely broken up at this point.

I took 1118 yeast and rehydrated then fed it a mix of the banana must and a bit of sugar until I had two quart mason jars bubbling away with yeast, I then added that to the fermenter after topping off with cold water until it was about 80ish degrees. I put in a light dose of nutrients and stirred vigorously. Ended up with about 25-30 gallons of must. No way to get a gravity reading as it was too thick/chunky. Man does it smell and taste heavenly. I am excited to see what this one tastes like off the still. Banana is one of my favorites and the honey just complimented it perfectly.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by bcook608 »

I will eagerly await the results of this experiment!

Does banana work for post distillation maceration too to get more of the flavor into the final product? I hear banana dissappears quickly after distilling.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

bcook608 wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:51 am I will eagerly await the results of this experiment!

Does banana work for post distillation maceration too to get more of the flavor into the final product? I hear banana dissappears quickly after distilling.
i guess it depends, I have had good luck with the flavor on my banana runs... but I'm not trying to make something that tastes just like banana. It definitely tastes unique to me, sure there's some banana notes in there, caramel, vanilla... not sure what the honey will bring.

I can't imagine banana macerations working well, it'd be soupy, cloudy, thick...

I've done this before without the honey, I usually avoid adding sugar as it would water down the flavor but I am hoping the honey will enhance it.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by zach »

I found ripe bananas on sale last week and purchased 80 lbs after watching a still it video on youtube.

Jesse from still it split the batch and used both 1118 and a rum yeast. Jesse and his wife preferred the rum yeast. All I had on hand was baker's yeast. It liquified instantly with a paint mixer as soon as I had covered the fruit with water. I added 12 lbs of sugar, with 55 lbs of fruit in a 15 gallon fermenter with total volume of 12 gallons of must.

It taste pretty good now but very acidic. I started with a sg too high and will need to dilute, add oyster shells, and maybe a yeast nutrient. Jesse said that his took 2 to 3 weeks.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

zach wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:13 am I found ripe bananas on sale last week and purchased 80 lbs after watching a still it video on youtube.

Jesse from still it split the batch and used both 1118 and a rum yeast. Jesse and his wife preferred the rum yeast. All I had on hand was baker's yeast. It liquified instantly with a paint mixer as soon as I had covered the fruit with water. I added 12 lbs of sugar, with 55 lbs of fruit in a 15 gallon fermenter with total volume of 12 gallons of must.

It taste pretty good now but very acidic. I started with a sg too high and will need to dilute, add oyster shells, and maybe a yeast nutrient. Jesse said that his took 2 to 3 weeks.
yeah, the sugar will not help things I'm afraid. I feel it really kills the subtle things we're going for using fruit.

I used the 1118 as it works well at cooler temps, which I doubt the rum yeast does. Its a good yeast known for working well with fruits that has worked great for me in the past.

If it's dry it's done, you want to be careful it doesn't turn into vinegar :thumbup:
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by MinistryOfMead »

I keep half of the skins, wash really well, dry them in an oven (pasteurising at the same time) overnight, and then use this to rack my end product onto for a few days. There is so much flavour to be extracted and there are a lot of tannins in there. My end product to date has not been spirits, it has been mead though.
I would be fairly confident that putting your spirit over the dried skins would have a very similar effect, I may try it with a neutral today just to see how it works out.
You are correct that the skins can be nasty, pesticides, bacteria etc are an issue, but a good clean, and a really good pasteurisation and they are good to go.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

MinistryOfMead wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:48 pm I keep half of the skins, wash really well, dry them in an oven (pasteurising at the same time) overnight, and then use this to rack my end product onto for a few days. There is so much flavour to be extracted and there are a lot of tannins in there. My end product to date has not been spirits, it has been mead though.
I would be fairly confident that putting your spirit over the dried skins would have a very similar effect, I may try it with a neutral today just to see how it works out.
You are correct that the skins can be nasty, pesticides, bacteria etc are an issue, but a good clean, and a really good pasteurisation and they are good to go.
I am not sure I understand the "flavor" from banana peels concept. I have never personally eaten a banana peel but I can't imagine the flavor is really that good? Does it taste like a banana?

the peels are pretty brown, soft and mushy by the time the bananas are ripe enough for my recipe. Not sure I could dry them into much of anything usable. can you explain a little more on you banana peel drying process,?
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

anyway, for an update the must has really gone fast and is tasting pretty dry already, I think it will be ready to run this weekend for sure. I already know it isn't super high in alcohol but when double distilled I am hoping it will end up where I want it.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by zach »

I checked my sg last night and it's at 1.07 (17 brix) and I think it started around 1.115 (27 brix).

The PH was 3.9 , not so low. The room temp is 67 F which is likely a little low for the baker's yeast. I think it will be another week or two at this rate. Probably need to order some 1118.

I tried to make a pizza crust with the same yeast last night at room temp and it seems it lost it's vigor. It did rise overnight but not like it did when it's warmer.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

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squigglefunk wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:27 am
MinistryOfMead wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:48 pm I keep half of the skins, wash really well, dry them in an oven (pasteurising at the same time) overnight, and then use this to rack my end product onto for a few days. There is so much flavour to be extracted and there are a lot of tannins in there. My end product to date has not been spirits, it has been mead though.
I would be fairly confident that putting your spirit over the dried skins would have a very similar effect, I may try it with a neutral today just to see how it works out.
You are correct that the skins can be nasty, pesticides, bacteria etc are an issue, but a good clean, and a really good pasteurisation and they are good to go.
I am not sure I understand the "flavor" from banana peels concept. I have never personally eaten a banana peel but I can't imagine the flavor is really that good? Does it taste like a banana?

the peels are pretty brown, soft and mushy by the time the bananas are ripe enough for my recipe. Not sure I could dry them into much of anything usable. can you explain a little more on you banana peel drying process,?
Your skins might be too far gone. The flavour from the skins is tannin and banana. I peel my bananas before they are all black, but when the spots are well and truly starting to cover them. At this point the skins still have some body and firmness to them, I take the top and bottom bit off and now can lay the skin flat on a tray.

If I am using the bananas as they are I mash them, spread them on a tray and cover with a thin layer of sugar overnight, this gets them as ripe as if they were a mushy mess in a floppy skin.

However, I produce a dried banana mead that constantly sells out, For this I don't mash the bananas but dry them and then ferment them. Racking this mead over the dried peels adds a lot of flavour and complexity. It is based on this experience that I made my comment.

If you are leaving your fruit until the skin is really thin and broken down, then you are getting that flavour out of the skins anyway, but the tannins will have been lost along the way.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by Demy »

Have a good experiment. For the flavor you could use (in a bottle) my filtration method (bad video but it works)viewtopic.php?t=87026
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

MinistryOfMead wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:50 pm Your skins might be too far gone. The flavour from the skins is tannin and banana. I peel my bananas before they are all black, but when the spots are well and truly starting to cover them. At this point the skins still have some body and firmness to them, I take the top and bottom bit off and now can lay the skin flat on a tray.

If I am using the bananas as they are I mash them, spread them on a tray and cover with a thin layer of sugar overnight, this gets them as ripe as if they were a mushy mess in a floppy skin.

However, I produce a dried banana mead that constantly sells out, For this I don't mash the bananas but dry them and then ferment them. Racking this mead over the dried peels adds a lot of flavour and complexity. It is based on this experience that I made my comment.

If you are leaving your fruit until the skin is really thin and broken down, then you are getting that flavour out of the skins anyway, but the tannins will have been lost along the way.
yah I see this is a serious process! Man I can barely stand peeling all the bananas let alone doing all that additional work! And all the trays and space I would need for that! dang I hope it gets a lot of good flavor out. I am not wanting tannins from the peels (or the pesticides as you mentioned) and if I did I would throw some in a jar with some chunks of wood or something lol.

My ferment had stalled out as the temps were too cold even with the 1118 yeast so I had to kick start it back up with a little heater and a blanket wrapped around it. It's back fizzing nicely this morning. The flavor from this yeast is really clean to me. Seems to work nicely with the bananas and honey.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

Demy wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:30 pm Have a good experiment. For the flavor you could use (in a bottle) my filtration method (bad video but it works)viewtopic.php?t=87026
thanks for that :thumbup:
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by zach »

My ferment is also going slow... 1.06 last night after about 2 weeks. Maybe I could heat the ferment with my sous vide cooker in a hops filter basket. The cap is about 3" thick.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

i have been punching down the cap regularly, it started out at least that thick prob but is becoming thinner
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

well, the first stripping run did not hit the numbers I was hoping for, so I ended up adding 24 lbs of sugar dissolved in warm water and backset from the first stripping run to the rest of the ferment. It finished out on monday, I did a second stripping run that came off starting at 60%, then threw that along with the first weaker stripping run and about 10 gallons of the must for a "1.5" distillation spirit run and I am pretty happy with the product. First off the spout was 80% Definitely banana and honey aromas all through the run. Got about 15 quarts before cuts. I think I over estimated the sugar content of the honey and I usually add some enzymes to help convert all the starch from the bananas which I skipped this time. Oh man... now that I'm not a swill maker I need to take this more serious!
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by zach »

My banana ferment is still going. Started at 1.112 on Oct 20. Down to 1.03 yesterday. I did add EC1118 and oyster shells about a week ago. I'm thinking I will strip the whole mess in the thumper with steam to get as much flavor as I can. It's likely a turkey day run for me.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by contrahead »

I like fermenting with bananas a lot. If done right, their inclusion seems to impart a pleasant, little buttery aftertaste to a spirit.
If there available, I'll chuck a few into most any wash or mash. If I have too many ripe discount bananas on hand at a given time, I'll peal, slice and freeze them for future use. I'll also add a few inches of banana peel into each freezer baggie. It is my impression (which I got from reading somewhere) that the peel actually contains enzymes that help break down the banana pulp. This may or may not be true – but it sounds reasonable.

A few years ago a member named “Der Wo” began a thread named Where does banana flavor in Rum come from?. He carried on about the subject, to some length; and seemed to have some good ideas.

Much of that thread is of no use to me personally because I have no use for rum. I got so puking sick of cheap white rum and dysentery as a teenager down in Central America some 50 years ago, that I still don't care for rum to this day.

But 'Hail bananas'.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

yah I think I will use the banana honey backset with some wheat and rye to make a neat blend hmmmm
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

contrahead wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:16 pm It is my impression (which I got from reading somewhere) that the peel actually contains enzymes that help break down the banana pulp. This may or may not be true – but it sounds reasonable.
here's what my vast and powerful google tells me:

Bananas
Bananas are another fruit that contains natural digestive enzymes.

They contain amylases and glucosidases, two groups of enzymes that break down complex carbs like starch into smaller and more easily absorbed sugars

Like mangoes, these enzymes break down starch into sugars as bananas start to ripen. That’s why ripe yellow bananas are much sweeter than unripe green bananas

AND this little tidbit I did NOT know about honey:

Honey
It’s estimated that Americans consume over 400 million pounds of honey each year (11).

This delicious liquid is rich in many beneficial compounds, including digestive enzymes
The following are enzymes found in honey, particularly raw honey

Diastases: Break down starch into maltose
Amylases: Break down starch into sugars like glucose and maltose
Invertases: Break down sucrose, a type of sugar, into glucose and fructose
Proteases: Break down proteins into amino acids
Make sure that you’re buying raw honey if you’re seeking its digestive health benefits. Processed honey is often heated, and high heat can destroy digestive enzymes.

SUMMARY
Honey contains a variety of digestive enzymes, including diastase, amylase, invertase and protease. Just make sure to purchase raw honey, as it is not exposed to high heat. Processed honey may be heated, which destroys digestive enzymes.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

even with the issues and having to add sugar halfway though this experiment, the flavors are still strong. Big honey flavors are abundant and the banana is holding up well, I have some on third gen oak and some on new charred oak and those are also coming along dang good!
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Re: banana/honey ferment

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I've got a honey spirit solera going that I enjoy. I'll use melter honey for the bulk of the sugars and the odd jar of different raw honeys to change up the flavours going into the solera. Melter is a bit less expensive but I run it as a small batch special spirit to keep it more economical and recycle honey dunder and feints into each successive run.

https://www.gardnerbees.buzz/product-pa ... lter-honey

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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:44 am I'll use melter honey for the bulk of the sugars
gotcha, I got the honey free from a friend, it was really dark, intense color, smell and flavor, fall honey?

I just had to split the product with him in the end :ebiggrin:
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Re: banana/honey ferment

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squigglefunk wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:46 am
jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:44 am I'll use melter honey for the bulk of the sugars
gotcha, I got the honey free from a friend, it was really dark, intense color, smell and flavor, fall honey?

I just had to split the product with him in the end :ebiggrin:
Free honey is the best honey but those bees sure do work hard lol !

The flavor depends on the plants the bees produce the honey from.. I find the spirit has a nice floral aroma so I'm guessing mostly wildflower. Mine is mostly a blend with different honeys that I'll purchase a bit at a time in large jars plus whatever the melter is - sorta averages out over time..

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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

squigglefunk wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:46 am
gotcha, I got the honey free from a friend, it was really dark, intense color, smell and flavor, fall honey?
Yes. And the best, imo. Every seasons' honey has a place.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:32 pm
Yes. And the best, imo. Every seasons' honey has a place.
this stuff was damn near black like mole asses, the smell was potent! The good thing is this guy says he will have piles of honey compared to what he gave me next season. :clap:
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by subbrew »

Possible the bees had access to buckwheat. That gives a very dark and strong honey. Will be interesting to see how much of that flavor comes through in distilling.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by squigglefunk »

tons of flavor came through the distillation, I am not sure about the flower content of the honey, just that it was much darker and more intense smelling than most I've seen. I am not an expert tho lol
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Re: banana/honey ferment

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squigglefunk wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:47 am tons of flavor came through the distillation,
Great to hear. I have a honey and sorghum syrup mix fermenting. The honey is quite favorful, not super strong but more so than the clover honey you mostly see in the store.
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Re: banana/honey ferment

Post by bluedog »

Sounds wonderful. Have you thought of adding some malt as well to help break down the banana starch. Maybe do a rest at 130-140F for an hour. Vienna malt might go well flavor wise.
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