Problems with making neutral

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by greggn »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:27 pm
Would appreciate any help y’all could offer!

I'd suggest either rotating your PC to a more vertical position or removing the end reducing cap. In the position shown in your photo it's most likely holding a significant amount of distillate and possibly smearing your run.
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
DrFunk
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:25 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Hi all, wanted to post an update and ask for more input.

I’ve insulated the column
I turned the power down to 1000-1200w to slow the vapour speed
I turned the PC to nearly completely vertical to try to eliminate any smearing that could be happening there
I added copper to the boiler and to the vapour path.

And still this last run I got past the toughest heads and tossed them, but the entire “hearts” still had an ethyl acetate kind of smell when diluted with water. There was no clean neutral smelling heart. I let it sit 24 hours with no improvement and ended up needing to charcoal filter it.

I’m using “alcoferm” SPP from UK Amazon but it feels like extremely thin wire that’s easily crushed between my fingers. I’m wondering if this is the problem because I spent the money to get spp to improve my neutral and it seems to be worse than when I started! I was getting at least a portion of clean hearts when I used a column full of copper mesh..

I had heard so much about making a fluidized bed with the spp so I started with running it full power but that didn’t work. Then I heard from y’all to try slowing the vapour speed and forget the fluidized bed but that didn’t work (though I think I was hearing the column sizzling through the insulation with the insulated column).

Now I’m wondering if I just got trash spp and it’s got me with a worse packing situation than copper mesh??
kimbodious
Distiller
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:57 pm
Location: Far northern tropics of Australia.

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by kimbodious »

Are you collecting small samples in jars throughout your spirit run? I start by collecting 300 ml samples an any my CCVM spirit run, that is after collecting and discarding 150 mls foreshots. I’ll move up to 600 - 1000 ml samples once I am pretty sure I am collecting hearts. I switch back down to 300 ml samples when I think I am getting close to tails. My spirit run is usually based on 40 L of low wines of around 30%. It normally involves 22 jars. I leave the samples in the sequentially labeled jars, loosely lidded for several days before sniff/ taste testing to pick which jars make the final hearts blend.
--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
DrFunk
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:25 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Yup, collecting between 200-300 ml at a time.
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by greggn »

DrFunk wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:51 am
I’m using “alcoferm” SPP from UK Amazon but it feels like extremely thin wire that’s easily crushed between my fingers.

That's not good. If the SPP are deformed then you're not getting the vapor-liquid interaction during reflux. Additionally, you may be compromising the amount of reflux in your column.

It would be interesting to compare to a run with mesh or raschig rings. I assume you did not start out using SPP. Do you have other packing on hand ?
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
User avatar
bunny
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:28 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by bunny »

DrFunk wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:51 am Hi all, wanted to post an update and ask for more input.

I’ve insulated the column
I turned the power down to 1000-1200w to slow the vapour speed
I turned the PC to nearly completely vertical to try to eliminate any smearing that could be happening there
I added copper to the boiler and to the vapour path.

And still this last run I got past the toughest heads and tossed them, but the entire “hearts” still had an ethyl acetate kind of smell when diluted with water. There was no clean neutral smelling heart. I let it sit 24 hours with no improvement and ended up needing to charcoal filter it.

I’m using “alcoferm” SPP from UK Amazon but it feels like extremely thin wire that’s easily crushed between my fingers. I’m wondering if this is the problem because I spent the money to get spp to improve my neutral and it seems to be worse than when I started! I was getting at least a portion of clean hearts when I used a column full of copper mesh..

I had heard so much about making a fluidized bed with the spp so I started with running it full power but that didn’t work. Then I heard from y’all to try slowing the vapour speed and forget the fluidized bed but that didn’t work (though I think I was hearing the column sizzling through the insulation with the insulated column).

Now I’m wondering if I just got trash spp and it’s got me with a worse packing situation than copper mesh??



We recently went through something possibly similar to your situation with another novice. His equipment and technique was excellent, however he truly didn't quite know what to expect of the smells and tastes he was experiencing. He has since figured out where he went wrong.

I would highly suggest you pick up a gallon of the cheapest vodka you can find and run it through your CCVM noting well what the smells and tastes are at different parts of your run. You can dilute your charge to 10-20% ABV if you need to cover your element more.
DrFunk
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:25 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

I appreciate that idea, I saw that poster and the resolution I was hopeful it was the same as mine but I don’t think that’s the same situation. I’ve distilled quite a bit and I’ve made clean neutral before with copper mesh packing and a CM dephlagmator style set up. I've worked with lots of pure ethanol too so I feel pretty confident I know what it should smell and taste like. The fruity taste I’m getting is persistent even after trying to age it out, and the product is miles away from being even as clean as everclear.

I appreciate your help, I’m sorry I know this can be frustrating trying to help as well. Maybe I’ll end up trying again next time with packed mesh and see if that’s the variable..
DrFunk
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:25 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Here is some pictures of the spp. the thicker stuff is when I tried to do homemade, and the thin crushable stuff is the alcoferm stuff that I ended up buying.

To add, I also tried stabilizing at full reflux for 40 minutes then bleeding off foreshots/heads at 2 drips per second, then repeating it in an attempt to compress the heads more and bleed them off. I did this probably 4 times but was still getting the fruity smell coming over.
Attachments
46F3FD65-4D0A-478B-84A6-CD5379E17A0E.jpeg
6808FCCF-559F-430C-A0CB-0C29829BD7C2.jpeg
23CE1347-8C30-4A06-934B-D29384599D7E.jpeg
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by NZChris »

Try scoria or marbles.

There are ingredients in your recipe that I’ve never used so I can’t comment on what they might be contributing, but I haven’t experienced your problem.
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by greggn »

DrFunk wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:26 pm Here is some pictures of the spp. the thicker stuff is when I tried to do homemade, and the thin crushable stuff is the alcoferm stuff that I ended up buying.

I'd bet that the SPP is crushing at the bottom of your column and the reflux just isn't returning to the boiler. You've probably been operating on just this side of flooding.
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
kimbodious
Distiller
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:57 pm
Location: Far northern tropics of Australia.

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by kimbodious »

greggn wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:15 pm
I'd bet that the SPP is crushing at the bottom of your column and the reflux just isn't returning to the boiler. You've probably been operating on just this side of flooding.
Interesting suggestion! It could be that condensate from the RC could be coming across with the vapour? I certainly have had that happen to me.
--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time
User avatar
Salt Must Flow
Distiller
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:06 pm
Location: Wuhan China (Novel Coronavirus Laboratory)

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Sorry if this wasn't asked or mentioned previously, but what are the specs of your SPP? The diameter and length of your SPP is said it should be 1/10th to 1/12th the diameter of your column. The diameter of the wire is said to be 1/10th to 1/12th the diameter of your SPP.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by shadylane »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:02 pm Nutrients: boiled yeast, DAP, crushed multivitamin, and yeast energizer

Aiming for 8-10% ABV
Some multivitamins have a taste that carries over.

On a side note.
Yeast energizer is a blend of diammonium phosphate, yeast hulls, magnesium sulphate, and vitamin B complex.
Long story short, your double dosing the yeast with nitrogen.
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by squigglefunk »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:27 pm Hi all,
I’ve used sugar wash, I’ve used all-grain, I’ve used feints, and all just aren’t that good.
indeed, reflux stills can make high proof really easy but "neutral" ? Not so much. I think it's harder to make something drinkable with a reflux still than a pot still. if being used as a base for a bunch of strong botanicals or fruit flavors it probably doesnt matter what the "neutral" tastes like so maybe this is just a non issue for most.

sorry not much help but just wanted to maybe give you some confirmation that you're not crazy.
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9677
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Saltbush Bill »

squigglefunk wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:24 am indeed, reflux stills can make high proof really easy but "neutral" ? Not so much.
Squiggle ....How much hands on experience do you have with a decent reflux still.......my opinion fwiw.....you cant make good neutral without high proof ......the two go hand in hand.
Well you can make neutral in other ways ......but your going to be f...k..ng around for ever running it over and over through a still that cant produce high ABV.
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by StillerBoy »

This is not in line with the thread but response is required to correct misleading info..
squigglefunk wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:24 am I think it's harder to make something drinkable with a reflux still than a pot still
What experience do you have operating a properly setup reflux column ? ? ? a statement such as that is very misleading, and quoting "I think", points to lack of understanding and experience..
squigglefunk wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:24 am if being used as a base for a bunch of strong botanicals or fruit flavors it probably doesnt matter what the "neutral" tastes like so maybe this is just a non issue for most.
To correct the above statement, Yes.. there is a very big different and it does matter went used to create a finished product that one wants to reduplicate..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by StillerBoy »

There are multiple issue as I read the thread..

The recipe and fermentation method is one.. creating a recipe that reduces the formation heads in the task..

The packing used is another, the design could very well be one also that is friendly to operate.. some setup using SPP are very finicky to operate, and some design will work well in a 3" but not in a 2".. maybe wise to switch to trying lava rocks which are not so finicky and are more standardized..

And the operation of the reflux column itself need some development of understanding how the vapor work within the setup..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
DrFunk
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:25 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:21 am There are multiple issue as I read the thread..

The recipe and fermentation method is one.. creating a recipe that reduces the formation heads in the task..

The packing used is another, the design could very well be one also that is friendly to operate.. some setup using SPP are very finicky to operate, and some design will work well in a 3" but not in a 2".. maybe wise to switch to trying lava rocks which are not so finicky and are more standardized..

And the operation of the reflux column itself need some development of understanding how the vapor work within the setup..

Mars
I generally stick with TFFV for the base if I’m doing sugar wash or else I rerun feints from rum or single malt, so it can either be clean sugar wash or a mix of Feints.

Could you elaborate on your second and third points? I do find spp confusing because some people say use as much power as possible to get fluidized bed, while others say it should work well with slow Vapor speeds.

In terms of how the Vapor works in the set up I’ve understood with slower Vapor speeds and adequate reflux that you should get a stacking of compounds like in fractional distillation, and you can bleed off the fores and heads slowly. I’ve heard you can equilibrate a few times to concentrate the lighter compounds and bleed them off before the hearts. The point that confuses this is when someone said if you reflux the heads too much you’ll smear them in the column? I’m hearing two different things here: one is reflux for a long time to stabilize and then bleed off the heads, and the other says let the heads off before you reflux or you’ll just be forcing the heads back into the column…
StillerBoy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by StillerBoy »

DrFunk wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:01 pm Could you elaborate on your second and third points?
Lets go with the second for now, will touch on the third in another post..

The TFFV reciepe is as follows

4kg Sugar (Try a batch using 5K instead of 4 and see if you notice a different.. I personally don't like 4K)
250g wheat bran ( try a different grain base, maybe such as oats or wheat germ, they also produce a good flavor as a base)
1 Multivitamin tablet (Drop the multi out, and use yeast energizer (fermaid) instead, as it provides better results)
Pinch Epsom salts (I use 1/4 tsp for a 26L batch)
½ tsp DAP (I would up the DAP (yeast nutrient) to at least1.5 - 2 tsp.. the recipe is relying of the bran to provide some nutrients, which I don't thing it does)
Citric acid (I use 1 tsp for a batch of 26L)
50g bakers yeast (the recipe call for starting the yeast, try it without doing a starter by just pitching on surface giving it half hour then stirring it in)
pH to around 5 (the process calls for a Ph of 5, try for a 6.5 instead, the yeast done start quite just as fast but it finishes in the same amount of time, requiring less head space as there is less foaming)
Pitching temp of 30C ( in my view that's pitching to hot, try pitching at 80*F and maintaining an 85*F temp max, lower temp produces better wash result)

A good ferment is not about speed, but about balancing the fermentation temp, maintaining the right Ph level, with the right balance of ingredients and degassing at the right points.. Experiment with different amounts of sugar, say 3.5, 4, 4.5 and 5k and see the different.. when one experiences issues, one have to find the why it is, and that can only be done by making good notes, and changing only one item at time.. yeah it can be a long process, but a learning one..

My sugar wash batches (26L) are done in 4 days (1.070 - 0.990), degassed at that stage, and rack after 2 days and allow to clear for another 4 days, at that point in the process, I can see the bottom of the fermenter..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
DrFunk
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:25 am

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Well I threw it all back in the still with some fruit brandy I wanted to redistill and reran it with a column packed with copper mesh and packed scrubbers and the difference is stark. There’s a clear delineation between the headsy fruity side, then much cleaner hearts, then right at the very end very concentrated tails. It’s not perfectly clean hearts but I believe that’s just the HETP of the copper mesh.

So I believe it was the spp, or how I’m running spp. I’m pretty disappointed it’s so tricky to run. I’ll try out some scoria, and I think I’ll start saving to get some Pro-pak to just get it sorted once and for all!
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by shadylane »

DrFunk wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:11 am
So I believe it was the spp, or how I’m running spp. I’m pretty disappointed it’s so tricky to run. I’ll try out some scoria, and I think I’ll start saving to get some Pro-pak to just get it sorted once and for all!
I think it was the SPP you're using. The wire looks too small in diameter.
Your homemade stuff looked like it would have worked better.
Post Reply