Problems with making neutral

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DrFunk
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Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Hi all,

I am banging my head against the wall here trying to make a decent neutral. It’s always got a bit of ester/aldehyde fruity notes going on in it. I know I can carbon filter but I keep hearing I should be able to make good stuff without carbon filtering.

I’m using a 30L still with about a 1.2 metre high column. I’m packing with SPP and running about 1750 watts through it. I’m using a CCVM style still with a csst condenser after upgrading from a dephlagmator with cooling control. I’m running it full heat and full reflux for about 30 minutes then slowly easing off the reflux until I’m getting a few drops a second and collecting in small cuts.

I feel like I’m hitting all the boxes.. I’ve got good heat, a big reflux ratio like 10-20:1, I’m packing with spp, I’m taking off slow..

I’ve used sugar wash, I’ve used all-grain, I’ve used feints, and all just aren’t that good. I pitch lots of yeast, I ferment cool and let it clear, I have a degree in microbiology and over a decade of all-grain brewing experience so I don’t think it’s my fermentation practices..

I’m pretty much out of ideas.. I’ll try some sodium carbonate on the next run to see if it helps but I’m just very frustrated that I can’t seem to get a good quality vodka without having to use sodium carbonate and charcoal filtering the hell out of it..

Would appreciate any help y’all could offer!

Edit: running ccvm not boka
Last edited by DrFunk on Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NZChris
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by NZChris »

Where is the copper in your still?

Are you stripping before the spirit run?
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Copper mesh above and below the ssp, and yessir I’m doing stripping runs and when I do them I pack the vapour path with 4-5 rolls of copper mesh.
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NZChris
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by NZChris »

Let's look at the wash then.

What nutrients are you using?

What ABV are you aiming for?

What yeast are you using?
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NZChris
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by NZChris »

No copper in the boiler?
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Sporacle »

What abv are you hitting ?
Are you controlling your power after equalisation?

I know with my CCVM I can blast power into it and very slowly lift my RC and collect at the same rate as a lower power/higher RC if that makes sense, the product comes of at the same rate but with a vast difference in the quality.

I understand you are running a Boka though
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Nutrients: boiled yeast, DAP, crushed multivitamin, and yeast energizer

Aiming for 8-10% ABV

Generally have been using DADY but more recently changed to wyeast 1056 for faster flocculating and clearing.

No copper in the boiler.

I’m consistently hitting 95-96% coming off the spout.
Once I start and equilibrate I don’t change the power input at all I only change the take off by adjusting the reflux. I had read in an Odin thread that messing with the power after equilibrium can throw off the equilibrium.

Sporacle
Did you find the higher power produced better?
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by bunny »

"never mind"
Last edited by bunny on Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DrFunk
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Oh shoot I’m so sorry correction I am running a ccvm not a boka
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Here is the still. It is ccvm not boka sorry about that.

I’m usually running either tffv or all grain whiskey.
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bunny
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by bunny »

Your vapor speed is about 29.16 ips

Try running at 1000w-1200w

Oh yeah, insulate your column.
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NZChris
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by NZChris »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:02 pm Nutrients: boiled yeast, DAP, crushed multivitamin, and yeast energizer
I've never used the last two and haven't had the problem that you are experiencing.

Are you removing a foreshot from your stripping runs?

What is the abv of your low wines collection? Are you diluting it with water?
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Sporacle »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:02 pm Sporacle
Did you find the higher power produced better?
I use copper mesh with offcuts in the boiler, generally run Shadys if I'm doing a neutral, more often than not I use mine for all fients.
My Neutral still needs work but it's getting better, I'm at about 75% power on a 2kw element and that's the input for the entire run including heat up
My RC generally only moves from full reflux to position 1 and I'll measure my take off rate I aim for about 900ml an hour, so I may adjust my RC ever so slightly, 95 abv or thereabouts.
I've used higher power and found my quality was not as good.
Also I've started diluting my low wines to 20abv with water and take a fores cut on my strip runs.
A lot of guys push for 96 and run their stills right on the edge, that's not for me and I know Kimbo is not a fan of pushing to hard as well.
Not to sure if you insulate your column but that will reduce your power input a bit as will insulating your boiler :thumbup:
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by shadylane »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:27 pm Hi all,

...I am banging my head against the wall here trying to make a decent neutral. It’s always got a bit of ester/aldehyde fruity notes going on in it.
That kinda sounds like a heads cut problem.
Time and airing might help but blending in less heads will probably help more.
Remember neutral has very little flavor, so even a tiny bit of bad flavor will stand out strong.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Sporacle »

:clap: That's great point Shady and probably the answer
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by howie »

'running at full heat and full reflux for 30 mins'
this section before letting the product out is meant to equilize the column IMHO.
so maybe running at full heat isn't going to do that, and you maybe smearing instead of equilizing.
it should be a nice rolling boil and probably for longer, maybe 40-45 mins.
then all you need is a temp gauge strapped to the outside of the column (is it insulated yet?)
or put a digital temp gauge in between the column and insulation just below the RC, and watch for a slight drop in temp (2-3C)
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Chris
Discarding the first 100 ml or so foreshots during stripping, usually comes off 50-60% abv and collect down to 20%. Also diluting the spirit run down to 20-30%

Sporacle
Good tips! I’ll try some copper in the boiler, and insulating the column. Also I’ll try running it a bit slower to reduce those vapour speeds.

I had read that with spp you want to run it hard to get partial flooding in the column per Odins spp threads. It doesn’t seem like I’m getting that flooded state that they are aiming for.

Thanks shady! I’ve been trying to make good cuts but this last run the fruity headstone note just kept persisting throughout the run.. could be smearing per what people are saying about running it too hard?
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by shadylane »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:14 pm I’ve been trying to make good cuts but this last run the fruity headstone note just kept persisting throughout the run.. could be smearing per what people are saying about running it too hard?
I'm at a loss to explain that.
The "fruity headstone note", persisting throughout the neutral spirit run sounds unusual.
Especially, if nothing different was done from the previous ferments and distillations.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

Headsy note. Sorry, autocorrect. It has a sort of acetaldehyde green apple note.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Metalking00 »

Ive noticed a heads taste smeared throughout a recent run. I was running it (a boka type LM) at about 1800w since i was getting impatient and want to finish a bit faster, which I think was putting too much power into the boiler, even with the increased reflux. Usually I run my reflux setup at about 800-900w and dont have that problem.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by NZChris »

The usual volatiles that cause us to cut for heads and tails don't persist throughout the entire run.

Could your problem be caused by an ingredient that you are using for nutrients?

Could it be leaching from a sealing material that you shouldn't be using?
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Metalking00 »

Mine wasnt so much an acetone or acetaldehyde taste/smell, just estery. It was run from whiskey feints, so that likely contributed more to it than how i ran the still, but im sure running it hard didnt help.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Yummyrum »

Maybe I’m a bit strange , but to me 100mls is not really a heads cut .
I cut more like from 750ml to 1000ml heads for a final 5000ml hearts keep .

LOL , a lot depends on if the MIL and SIL will be partaking :ewink:

Personally, I’m not so fussy :ebiggrin:
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Demy »

I recommend narrower cuts and reduced power, on the fermentation side it seems ok, as a nutrient I only use boiled yeast and a little grain/malt... I often use a neutral bayanus yeast, it has a clean profile.I would add that even a neutral benefits from a "rest" period, he will be less biting.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by kimbodious »

Having a look at the photo. I’d leave the sight glass clear of packing. That will give you a greater distance between the top of the packing and the offtake. That would lower the risk of condensate splashing across in to the offtake.

I’m with Yummy on this, I’d expect a heads cut of 1.2 litres on a 2” system

I don’t get running a boiler flat out before backing it off to equalise. It sounds the same as shaking up a bottle of champagne before trying to evenly measure out eight glasses. Try heating up at the same power setting you use for extraction and see how that works.

IMHO it does sound like you are smearing heads through your run. How big are the samples your are taking in jars through the run?

Definitely insulate your boiler and column :thumbup:
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by shadylane »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:33 am Maybe I’m a bit strange , but to me 100mls is not really a heads cut .
I hear Ya.
100ml sounds more like a forshots cut to me.
That's barely enough sacrifice to keep the leprechauns satisfied.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by DrFunk »

100 mls wasn’t my heads cut that was the foreshots cut during stripping runs when Chris asked if I take any foreshots during stripping. I’m usually taking a litre or more of heads off.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by bluefish_dist »

Back down your opening gravity. Try something in the 7-8% range. No need to push for high abv on a neutral. What’s your altitude and head temp? I expect your 1.2m is not enough height to get the purity you want and knowing that may confirm it.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by still_stirrin »

DrFunk wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:35 pm… It has a sort of acetaldehyde “green apple” note.
Acetaldehyde has a very low boiling point, barely above the ambient air temperature. So, it “effervesces” off even as your boiler is heating up. You’ll smell it early on. The fruit flies come swarming when they smell it too and they’ll try to go swimming in your jars if you’ve collected any yet.

As you no doubt know, acetaldehyde is a fermentation product from rapid ferments and is a precursor to ethanol. It typically is reduced in the fermenter when attenuating, so letting your ferments settle naturally will help reduce this constituent.

Ethyl acetate and acetone likewise have a fruity/solvent-like (fingernail polish remover) smell but are not as volatile, ie - a higher boiling point. They will come over in the heads and depending on how you run (hot and fast or slow and low), it can smear into the early hearts, or get compressed predominantly into the foreshots and heads. Many hobbyists confuse ethyl acetate and acetone (or any of the other ketones) with acetaldehyde, but the latter typically is very minimal in a run, especially low wines. And it is usually gone by the time you air out the collection jars because of its volatility.

With a CCVM, I’d recommend approaching production slowly with the reflux coil down deep, producing the higher reflux ratios. Then, slowly lifting the coil slightly until it starts to drip out of the product condenser. Once you’ve collected foreshots, then you can bring up the heat a little to increase the reflux ratio. You’ll notice the proof at the spout rise a few points too.

Typically, I’ll notice the product %ABV dip during the foreshots because the density of some of the early heads is slightly higher than alcohol. As a result, the measured “proof” dips a point or 3 (as the Proof &Traille hydrometer floats higher), but then returns to 96%ABV as the run progresses. I have a conventional VM and it’ll produce 96%ABV product all the way to the end, when it just stops producing.

Also, insulating the column will increase efficiency of the packing for reflux. It keeps the heat in the column so that rising hot vapors interact with falling cool condensate transferring heat and initiating the reboiling. This helps separation of volatile compounds.

Insulating the boiler will help you boil quicker because you’re not losing heat to the surroundings as much. It’ll save time and energy.

If you’re still not satisfied with the “taste” of your product after a strip and a reflux distillation, you could always dilute your (combined) collection and run it again. Yes, triple distillation will further help to eliminate flavors. And I always prefer triple distillations for high purity products rather than charcoal filtering. Activated charcoal is just too messy to work with, so I avoid it.
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Re: Problems with making neutral

Post by Salt Must Flow »

DrFunk, when I do a spirit run I like to take a sample of my hearts and dilute it to make a bottle. It should be fantastic and very clean. Have you done that and does that bottle have the flavor you are describing? If so then there's a problem. If not then it may very well just be your cuts.

A very small amount of tails in your cut can be noticeable and I can taste it in every drink even if it is severely diluted. It could be argued that the flavor you're describing could more likely be heads, but if you're not cutting out enough heads then maybe you are keeping too much tails as well.

I've never operated a 2" column, or SPP so I couldn't comment on how much power is too much.
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