My Problem with cuts

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Fxaddicted
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My Problem with cuts

Post by Fxaddicted »

Since i have problem with sinuses it's really hard for me to Spot the differences between heads / hearts etc

So i think a smart and an experience distiller can help people like me . so that's got me to think if anyone can do the following for a specific still type let's say T500 220volt

1- With T500 220volt
2- for a specific sugar base with 10%abv
3- With water outlet temperature between 55C - 65C
4- Collect xx% foreshot/Heads
5- Collect xx% Hearts
6- Turn Off

Why this is not possible ? We even can create an online calculator in case any of the above parameters changes

I know it would be great if i can do the cuts based on sniffing but that not possible at least on my case

What you think about this ?
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Stonecutter
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Stonecutter »

Cuts are completely organic and arbitrary. Ask 10 distillers to judge an a early tails jar or late heads jar and you’ll get 10 different answers.
Think Jaegermeister.
I understand that smell and taste are intertwined but are you able to taste with any sizable discernment between your cuts? If so, take a drip and rub it between your index and thumb and then wipe it on your tongue. That’ll be a way to make cuts. Another option would be to bring someone you trust in to learn to make cuts with you. It’s not rocket science. It just takes practice.


And btw if you’re friends aren’t able to give you a small break on your cuts then f*ck em’ anyway. Keep the hooch you blend for yourself.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
Dougmatt
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Dougmatt »

Agree with stonecutter and it’s more than judgement imo. Process drives difference too. For example: Every distiller will have a different fermentation process which will result in different conversions and components in the wash / mash.

I sympathize with your situation and in addition to Stonecutters recommendation suggest you take a look at the “eye test” for the heads to hearts transition. viewtopic.php?p=6942933

I do this often myself to confirm my thinking.
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Steve Broady
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Steve Broady »

What yeast are you using?
How much yeast?
What temperature was the wash fermented at?
How long did it sit after fermentation finished?
Was there any contamination or infection?
What was the pH at the start?
What was the pH at the end?

These are just the variables that come to my inexperienced mind right away. I’m sure there are a lot more. I’ve always heard that it’s simply not possible to distill by the numbers. Even the big commercial distilleries where they have much better control over the entire process still have to taste and make adjustments.
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OtisT
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by OtisT »

Hi fxaddicted.

Perhaps try using taste/mouth feel to cut out the heads/tails. I can and often do make my cuts by taste alone because my nose does not always work well either.

Here is my method, assuming you collect in jars like the beginners guide to cuts process thread:

First thing to know is that I use this method to identify and remove what offends me. I am not tasting for a good flavor to keep, I am tasting for what to remove/cut.

The bad tastes in jars are not binary. (binary means that the bad taste is there or it is not.) Like smell, there is a progression of the bad tastes from jar to jar through a run. The bad taste of heads or tails should be non existent in the heart of hearts jars, and the bad tastes get progressively worse as you try jars further to the front of back of the run.

For a drink you intend to drink white, you don’t want to keep many (or any) jars that include the bad tastes. For a barrel cut, some of the least offensive jars can be tolerated. I personally tolerate some heads but very little tails in most of my oak aged spirits. How much bad taste to tolerate can vary by style of spirit, aging method, and personal preference.

To learn what the bad tastes are, you have to sit down and taste your jars from a run. (Just like kiwi’s guide). It can take repeated batches to figure out and get comfortable with the results. You should learn to identify the taste of heads/tails AND how/where it feels in your mouth.

Heads
I can taste/feel heads coming as I work toward the early jars. I feel it on the front of my tongue, and it stings. The closer to the first jar I get, the stronger the taste/feel of heads. My cut point is where after a sample swoosh and spit, I can taste/feel the burn and that burn lingers longer than a few seconds. You need to taste from good jars through to some harsh jars to get to know how the taste/feel progresses, and take notes. Spit out as you taste, and keep water handy to rinse after each taste. Walk away for a bit if it gets to be too much and you can’t tell one jar from another. I do that a lot.

Tails
Same process moving towards tails, but the taste of tails is not a burn. It is a bitter taste/dry pucker feel in the middle/back of my tongue. The oils cause this bad taste to coat and stick to your mouth. My tails cut is when the bitterness of tails coats my tongue and that coating/taste does not dissipate after about three seconds. This usually comes a jar or two before any cloudy jars from the run.

I hope this helps.
Otis
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Stonecutter
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Stonecutter »

Stonecutter wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:27 pm
I’d like to edit my above post by saying that I’ve only ever tried my hand at brown spirits and a couple sugar shines. Cutting a neutral spirit run may be completely different.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
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still_stirrin
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by still_stirrin »

Fxaddicted wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:08 pm Since i have problem with sinuses it's really hard for me to Spot the differences between heads / hearts etc

So i think a smart and an experience distiller can help people like me . so that's got me to think if anyone can do the following for a specific still type let's say T500 220volt

1- With T500 220volt
2- for a specific sugar base with 10%abv
3- With water outlet temperature between 55C - 65C
4- Collect xx% foreshot/Heads
5- Collect xx% Hearts
6- Turn Off

Why this is not possible ? We even can create an online calculator in case any of the above parameters changes

I know it would be great if i can do the cuts based on sniffing but that not possible at least on my case

What you think about this ?
Here’s what you CAN do:

1) volume of the mash x %ABV (potential) = theoretical volume of 100% alcohol
for example, 10 gallons of mash at 10%ABV = 10 x 10% = 1 gallon of (pure) alcohol

2) figure estimated low wines volume @ 30%ABV: volume (100%) / low wines purity (30%)
in the example, 1 gallon / 30% = 3.33 gallons at 30%ABV

3) estimate the number of collection jars, assume 375ml per jar
example, 3.33 gallons x 3785 ml/gal = 12,604ml, divide by 375, 12,604 / 375 = 33.6 jars

4) keep the middle 1/3 of the collection (12 jars) and give the first 11 jars and the last 11 jars to a fellow distiller WHO CAN SMELL.

How’s that for a “formula” for someone who doesn’t know what or how to make cuts?
ss
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Fxaddicted
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Fxaddicted »

OtisT wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:22 pm Hi fxaddicted.

Perhaps try using taste/mouth feel to cut out the heads/tails. I can and often do make my cuts by taste alone because my nose does not always work well either.

Here is my method, assuming you collect in jars like the beginners guide to cuts process thread:

First thing to know is that I use this method to identify and remove what offends me. I am not tasting for a good flavor to keep, I am tasting for what to remove/cut.

The bad tastes in jars are not binary. (binary means that the bad taste is there or it is not.) Like smell, there is a progression of the bad tastes from jar to jar through a run. The bad taste of heads or tails should be non existent in the heart of hearts jars, and the bad tastes get progressively worse as you try jars further to the front of back of the run.

For a drink you intend to drink white, you don’t want to keep many (or any) jars that include the bad tastes. For a barrel cut, some of the least offensive jars can be tolerated. I personally tolerate some heads but very little tails in most of my oak aged spirits. How much bad taste to tolerate can vary by style of spirit, aging method, and personal preference.

To learn what the bad tastes are, you have to sit down and taste your jars from a run. (Just like kiwi’s guide). It can take repeated batches to figure out and get comfortable with the results. You should learn to identify the taste of heads/tails AND how/where it feels in your mouth.

Heads
I can taste/feel heads coming as I work toward the early jars. I feel it on the front of my tongue, and it stings. The closer to the first jar I get, the stronger the taste/feel of heads. My cut point is where after a sample swoosh and spit, I can taste/feel the burn and that burn lingers longer than a few seconds. You need to taste from good jars through to some harsh jars to get to know how the taste/feel progresses, and take notes. Spit out as you taste, and keep water handy to rinse after each taste. Walk away for a bit if it gets to be too much and you can’t tell one jar from another. I do that a lot.

Tails
Same process moving towards tails, but the taste of tails is not a burn. It is a bitter taste/dry pucker feel in the middle/back of my tongue. The oils cause this bad taste to coat and stick to your mouth. My tails cut is when the bitterness of tails coats my tongue and that coating/taste does not dissipate after about three seconds. This usually comes a jar or two before any cloudy jars from the run.

I hope this helps.
Otis
Thanks to all but Very special thanks to you for this great answer . i will take this path because my taste still good and i know what you talking about especially regarding the Tails

Thanks again mate
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by jonnys_spirit »

One thing i’ll do once I have my 20-25 fractions collected from the spirit run is to make up a glass or three from middle and towards the ends where i suspect I may want to make the cut. Drink a few different blends over a few nights. Not enough to get really drunk but enough to expect to feel something next morning. If you have a splitting headache or otherwise hung over then you probably went too far into heads/tails.

Save your feints too because there’s a number of ways to use em.

After a few runs you’ll get a better handle on it and learn what your do or don’t like and it’s not necessarily ruined either if you cut it too wide.

Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Fxaddicted
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Fxaddicted »

still_stirrin wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:34 pm
Fxaddicted wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:08 pm Since i have problem with sinuses it's really hard for me to Spot the differences between heads / hearts etc

So i think a smart and an experience distiller can help people like me . so that's got me to think if anyone can do the following for a specific still type let's say T500 220volt

1- With T500 220volt
2- for a specific sugar base with 10%abv
3- With water outlet temperature between 55C - 65C
4- Collect xx% foreshot/Heads
5- Collect xx% Hearts
6- Turn Off

Why this is not possible ? We even can create an online calculator in case any of the above parameters changes

I know it would be great if i can do the cuts based on sniffing but that not possible at least on my case

What you think about this ?
Here’s what you CAN do:

1) volume of the mash x %ABV (potential) = theoretical volume of 100% alcohol
for example, 10 gallons of mash at 10%ABV = 10 x 10% = 1 gallon of (pure) alcohol

2) figure estimated low wines volume @ 30%ABV: volume (100%) / low wines purity (30%)
in the example, 1 gallon / 30% = 3.33 gallons at 30%ABV

3) estimate the number of collection jars, assume 375ml per jar
example, 3.33 gallons x 3785 ml/gal = 12,604ml, divide by 375, 12,604 / 375 = 33.6 jars

4) keep the middle 1/3 of the collection (12 jars) and give the first 11 jars and the last 11 jars to a fellow distiller WHO CAN SMELL.

How’s that for a “formula” for someone who doesn’t know what or how to make cuts?
ss
Great idea to do the taste myself also . i will try this thanks
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Salt Must Flow »

What Otis and jonnys_spirit said is great advice. Recently I learned a really good piece of advice too late in this hobby. bunny recommended drastically diluting a sample from each jar that you taste/smell. I can't remember exactly what his dilution ratio was off hand, but today I mixex 5ml of each sample with 20ml of clean water. Water brings out odors & flavors and it helped me today. I sometimes have a hard time with determining heads cut too, but these recommendations really help. Tails is easy because they smell & taste horrible.
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Ben
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by Ben »

I dilute a lot too, it really helps. Tails is much easier to pickup at 20%.

The other big help is a reference jar. Find a jar that you are absolutely sure is hearts, the more neutral the better, dilute a sample of that down, use it to compare what you think might be heads and tails. It allows you to recalibrate your nose and tongue in between other jars. When you have the control sample it is much easier to find the things that are out of place. This works because that hearts jar has all the same constituents as the rest of your run, just in more favorable ratios.
:)
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HDNB
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Re: My Problem with cuts

Post by HDNB »

if they can sell blanton's for 100 bucks a crock, you have no worries about a tight heads cut.

toss the fores, collect in small jars and cut the first 1/3 and the last 1/4 you'll be more than adequate for aging with 5/12 of the take... and get a nice feints collection going.
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now i drink for evil.
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