LM temperature photo essay

[bunny]

LM spirit run 28l x 40%. 1003w, spp 2" x 56" column
fores and heads collected at 200ml/hr.
Sunday morning start:
The lowest thermometer (#5) is in the boiler liquid charge
The next one up (#4) is about 6" up from the boiler directly in the spp
The top one in this pic(#3) is about 30" up from the boiler

[bunny]

Thermometer #1 on top is at the RC top end
Thermometer #2 is in the vapor above the spp
#3, #4, #5 are same as first pics.

[bunny]

Day#2
Another cold start
40, 41, 42, 80, 120
Totally un-eventful day collected about 7l at 560ml/hr, 97%ABV

Day #3
Another cold start slightly better than yesterday
41, 42, 43, 82, 126

Collected another 2l to put in next run. Stopped when #3 thermometer moved up from 173 to 175*f
#4 and #5 were at 205 and 208 respectively.


Total collection was 1.5l fores and heads, 7.5l hearts 97%, and 2l also at 97% for the next run.

[Saltbush Bill]

What an astonishingly simple way to confuse the hell out of any Newbies that are trying to run a Liquid Management still for the first time.
Sure am glad I didn't look at something like that before I tried to run one for the first time.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Sorry, just trying to understand the point you're trying to make with this thread? Is there a purpose to it?

[bunny]

Sorry, just trying to understand the point you're trying to make with this thread? Is there a purpose to it?

What an astonishingly simple way to confuse the hell out of any Newbies that are trying to run a Liquid Management still for the first time.
Sure am glad I didn't look at something like that before I tried to run one for the first time.

If I were a newbie with a LM still, I must have had a reason to go LM.

Having decided to go LM I would owe it to myself to check-out other ways of running it than just your fine long standing opinion.
As a home distiller, I don't feel the need for a 4" column with 11000w in the boiler are necessary.

My methods are quite slow by today's standards, however, 6 - 7.5l of 97% neutral is a lot for a typical home distiller.
If you read slowly and consider what you read you will realize I no longer use a controller, and operate at 1003w (8.5a x 118v) for the entire run start to finish. My only variable is take-off rate when hearts are reached. (200ml - 560ml).
My rig runs on one 110/120v circuit.

I did not say this was the first time I had done this. I have done this so many times it's getting a bit boring.
At 1.5l of fores and heads I'm already a good ways into hearts and am confident for me of a safe, clean, cut.

Keeping the vapor speed below any speed that drags tails up from the boiler is essential. 1003w in a 1.87" column is a very safe speed of 16.72ips.
I typically keep 6l of 97% hearts and save the next two liters or so for the next run.
On the third run I typically am able to keep 7.5l and still have about 2l to add to the next run.

Knowing when to stop take-off is a very valuable piece of information. I use the info provided by my #3 thermometer located about in the middle of my column. If I wait for a spike in #2 thermometer,(in the vapor path above the spp) I'm already too late and dumping tails into my collection.

I re-checked this morning the ABV in the last amount collected. 95% on first P&T and 96% on second P&T before temperature corrections @42*f. barometer: 30.36

I hope someone found this info useful even if you two did not.

[shadylane]

I appreciate you taking the time to share.
And got a couple questions.

Have you tested the thermos calibration?
Maybe dip all of the probes at the same time into boiling water.

Or better an easier yet. Do a water run and see if all of them show 212*f

[shadylane]

When measuring the temperature inside packing.
Is it the vapor temp, the reflux temp or the average of the two being measured.

[shadylane]

What an astonishingly simple way to confuse the hell out of any Newbies that are trying to run a Liquid Management still for the first time.
Sure am glad I didn't look at something like that before I tried to run one for the first time.

Your right this belongs in the columns section.

[bunny]

I appreciate you taking the time to share.
And got a couple questions.

Have you tested the thermos calibration?These Polder Scan Rite oven thermometers are not DIY calibrateable. They are however extremely close to one another in readings possibly due to the consistent length of the probe's cables and/or close factory initial calibration.
Maybe dip all of the probes at the same time into boiling water.

Or better an easier yet. Do a water run and see if all of them show 212*f

I'm sure some would be 211* and some would be212* and another 213* but the only thing that really matters is the change during the run, not really the specific number. I have to decide what, if anything to due when a change occurs. And then there's always the barometer to throw a curve every once in a while into your numbers.

[bunny]

When measuring the temperature inside packing.
Is it the vapor temp, the reflux temp or the average of the two being measured.

1) maybe 2) maybe, 3) maybe I don't exactly know. Some using thermowells acknowledge getting slightly different and slower readings than being right in there with all that action.

[bunny]

What an astonishingly simple way to confuse the hell out of any Newbies that are trying to run a Liquid Management still for the first time.
Sure am glad I didn't look at something like that before I tried to run one for the first time.

Your right this belongs in the columns section.

You might be right, but if you bury it there newbies probably won't find it for years and have a CCVM by then.

[BrewinBrian44]

Hey Bunny,

Those are some sweet thermometers! Not sure how accurate they are but they look cool as hell. As long as I can see .1 degree resolution that’s all I care about. When I first looked at the pics I thought they were sight glasses. Where would I be able to find those? I have a little screw on thermo port with a seal inside that allows the probe to go directly into the vapor, but it requires me to use a specific diameter probe. Do you know what the diameter is?

[BrewinBrian44]

After taking another look, it seems they only show whole number increments.

[bunny]

Hey Bunny,

Those are some sweet thermometers! Not sure how accurate they are but they look cool as hell. As long as I can see .1 degree resolution that’s all I care about. When I first looked at the pics I thought they were sight glasses. Where would I be able to find those? I have a little screw on thermo port with a seal inside that allows the probe to go directly into the vapor, but it requires me to use a specific diameter probe. Do you know what the diameter is?

Personally, I do not believe the 0.1* delineation is necessary unless your only using the temp in the vapor for your guidance. Lower inside the column the temp changes that are coming are in the form of a "wave" you can feel with your hand, so 1 degree that's moving in the direction of your take-off is way ahead of the temp change in the vapor above your packing, so you know a lot sooner and don't need 0.1*

The diameter is consistent with Polder's replacement probes: 2.2mm on the short skinny tip and 4mm on the main shaft. They do not shut off by themselves except every once in a while. They take 2 AAA batts.

[haggy]

Bunny,

Thanks for posting your good, complete reflux column run data. I do not see posts with complete run data very often. I use posts of reflux column runs to check and verify the calculator models I am developing. See my posts in the thread " Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics". The program and information developed there will go in the HD CaIculator Section soon I think.

I have used your data to verify my Excel spreadsheet calculation of a reflux column run time operation and see how the key variables change with run time. To recap, here is your run information as I see it.

You ran a 28 liter, 40% ABV wash in the pot with a 2" x 56" reflux column that has a LM takeoff head. The vapor at the top of the column is totally condensed to a liquid, and that liquid drains down to a (plate ?) where part of it is taken off through a control valve. You set the take off rate and try to keep it constant constant all day. You run at a constant power of 1003 watts to the pot.

You ran the same pot charge over 3 days, stopping and starting each day. Here is each days data. The heat up time each day is not counted.

image.png (8.27 KiB) Viewed 854 times

So, I used this data and combined it into one continuous run of 24 hours. First, what is the Reflux Ratio for the main Hearts run. I got this from my posts in the thread " A Quick Way to Find Reflux Ratio". Using pot power at 1 KW and a 40% ABV wash, gives a Vapor flow V of 3.0 L/hr. The distillate D is 0.56 L/hr, so liquid down the column L = V - D or 2.44 L/hr. So, RR = L / D = 2.44 / 0.56 = 4.4 ... Let's also run the Heads at this RR also, even though it is really about an 11 RR.

So, now I can do a computer simulation of your run. I developed this Excel spreadsheet for plated reflux columns but it also works for packed columns. I only go to four plates and that gets up to about 94.5% ABV. Packed columns will have more theoretical plates and get close to your 96% ABV data.

Here is input data sheet for my Excel spreadsheet.

Results are in graphs of the pot and product ABV and the amount of product made vs run time. The amount graph is in US gal. The 11 Liters amount were made in 24 hours ( 1440 min ). That is 2.9 gal at 1440 min run time and that is what the computer model predicted. The 95% ABV product from 4 plates would give the 96% data value observed for more theoretical plates of the packed column.

And, for complete disclosure, here is the information on this run from the "Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics" program modified for a packed column ( similar to a sieve plate column with 11% open hole area ).

So, of what value is this?

Well, this study gives me more confidence that my reflux column calculations are good. The Excel spreadsheet program and operating characteristics program can be used to study many sets of operating conditions and find good operating set points for a run . We can study different reflux ratios, power settings, pot % ABV, pot riser effects, number of plates (2,3, or 4 for a whiskey run ) and can do this for different column diameters.

This visual run time graphs of a reflux column run combined with the information in the "Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics" web page can tell you a lot about what to expect in a Plate ( or Packed ) Reflux Column Still operation. I have not done a detailed study of the operating characteristics of a Packed Reflux Column still but this spreadsheet with four plates comes close to predicting the product ABV and the amount made vs run time.

This run data is just one of many posted reflux column runs that I have studied to verify my calculations and development of the plate reflux column characteristics. But, the bunny post studied here was good to study and describe in a post since all the significant data points and information were held constant, were accurate and were complete.

[bunny]

Bunny,

Thanks for posting your good, complete reflux column run data. I do not see posts with complete run data very often. I use posts of reflux column runs to check and verify the calculator models I am developing. See my posts in the thread " Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics". The program and information developed there will go in the HD CaIculator Section soon I think.

I have used your data to verify my Excel spreadsheet calculation of a reflux column run time operation and see how the key variables change with run time. To recap, here is your run information as I see it.

You ran a 28 liter, 40% ABV wash in the pot with a 2" x 56" reflux column that has a LM takeoff head. The vapor at the top of the column is totally condensed to a liquid, and that liquid drains down to a (plate ?) where part of it is taken off through a control valve. You set the take off rate and try to keep it constant constant all day. You run at a constant power of 1003 watts to the pot.

You ran the same pot charge over 3 days, stopping and starting each day. Here is each days data. The heat up time each day is not counted.

image.png

So, I used this data and combined it into one continuous run of 24 hours. First, what is the Reflux Ratio for the main Hearts run. I got this from my posts in the thread " A Quick Way to Find Reflux Ratio". Using pot power at 1 KW and a 40% ABV wash, gives a Vapor flow V of 3.0 L/hr. The distillate D is 0.56 L/hr, so liquid down the column L = V - D or 2.44 L/hr. So, RR = L / D = 2.44 / 0.56 = 4.4 ... Let's also run the Heads at this RR also, even though it is really about an 11 RR.

So, now I can do a computer simulation of your run. I developed this Excel spreadsheet for plated reflux columns but it also works for packed columns. I only go to four plates and that gets up to about 94.5% ABV. Packed columns will have more theoretical plates and get close to your 96% ABV data.

haggy,

I'm glad you found a use for that info.
I made at least one reporting error: my column id is 1.87", not 2". (makes a difference when buying spp and determining vapor speed)
You were creative on your graphic stating my fores & heads take off rate was 250ml. In actuality it's slightly less than 200ml/hr.

Let me say your spreadsheets and charts have left me in the dust of ignorance.

Do your charts account for column id and number of theoretical plates?

I have a couple of items that are baffling me. Maybe you can help?

If I run 40% through an empty 1.87" riser at 1003w with zero reflux I collect less than 3l/hr.
If I run 40% through 56" manu's spp in my 1.87" column at 1003w with zero reflux I collect 70+ml/minute. (4.2l+/hr)
Can you help me understand what I'm seeing?

Second:
Since I have 56" of manu's spp in my 1.87" id column, how many theoretical plates would you guess I have ( I'm thinking 70+) and what reflux ratio would i have to maintain to collect true azeo?

Thanks for your time and effort,

bunny

[Twisted Brick]

I love the thought and examination of principles displayed in this thread.

Hey bunny - you got an iphone? If interested, PM me. I'd be happy to share how to make a 10sec fix of the exposure of your images.

[haggy]

bunny, thanks for the feedback. I will try to answer your questions.

First, most of my stuff on reflux columns refer to plate columns, sieve plates and bubble caps. The calculations were for 2" , 3" and 4 " columns with 2, 3 or 4 plates. I can modify the program for other column diameters, but the maximum number of plates is four. So, I looked at your packed column data with only a four plate model and got lower product ABV but good agreement on the amount made over the run time.

Refer to block of the input data sheet for the Excel spreadsheet. That gives the basis for the curves in the charts. A 2" reflux column with 4 plates at a 4.4 reflux ratio.

There is a resource we can go to for your packed column theoretical plates. It is the Reflux Still Sizing and Purity calculator by rad14701 in the HD Calculator Section. It is for packed columns, but it does not have the option for SPP packing. It has 6mm raschig rings and SS Wool. SS Wool is a packing option with higher theoretical plates than raschig rings, but the program gives no results when SS Wool is used at 1003 watts.

Your question on theoretical plates can be answered using the HD packed column Reflux Still Sizing calculator. Here are results of your run using 6 mm raschig rings.

Input your Reflux Still characteristics
Initial Volume of Wash 28 L...... Timestep for Calculation 60 minutes
Alcohol Content 40 % by volume......Initial Temperature 20 oC
Power during Heat-up 1200 W........Height of Packing 1.43 m
Power during Distillation 1003 W.....Diameter of Column 0.0475 m
Reflux Ratio 4.3

Select Packing Used
(note: the values these selections generate are only approximate guesses)
Marbles................................ x 6 mm Raschig rings (ceramic)
Stainless Steel Wool................. 13 mm Raschig rings (ceramic)

Estimate of Reflux Still Performance
Height Equivalent of Packing (HETP): 0.181 m
(depends on Reflux ratio and type & size of packing)
Number of Theoretical Plates : 7.9 (height/HETP)

Time Step....... Pot.. .................................Vapour.........Distillate.............Collected
..................Volume...BoilTemp....Purity......CondTemp....Volume...Purity....Total...Purity
60 min...........28.L......83.8 oC....40 %.........78.2 oC......556 mL...94.1 %...556 mL..94.1 %
120 min........27.44 L....84 o C.....38.9%........78.2.oC.....551 mL... 94.1 %..1108 mL..94.1 %\

A RR of 4.3 gave 556 ml/hr initially. Good agreement with my 4.4 RR. The Purity ABV% is a little lower.

About 8 theoretical plates were estimated for 6 mm raschig rings. A run with SS Wool had about 15 theo plates at 2000 watts and a 1.1 L/hr take-off at RR of 4.3. So, at 1000 watts, we would get 0.55 L/hr. The product ABV for SS Wool was 95.2%. I have read that SPP packing is more efficient, lower HETP, ie higher theo plates. You can get a true azeo at about 40 plates, a number I have read about.

Your SPP packing would be much better than SS Wool. I just did some quick research on SPP in a thread "SPP Packing". There are some numbers on the first page by DAD300 and Odin for the HETP ranging from 3 to 3.6 cm, but that can vary up or down. Your 143 cm column may have about 40+ theoretical plates. So you may get close to azeo liike your data says. So go read up on that thread if you have not already and go try out the packed column Reflux Still Sizing and Purity calculator.


Other questions:
Running 40% ABV at 1003 watts and zero reflux with no packing gave less than 3 L/hr in your still.
The rad packed column program with either packing gives 2.9 L/hr, my curve was about 3 L/hr. Even though you have an insulated column, maybe there is some passive reflux on the column walls or in the pot exit line, and that lowered the throughput to less than 3 L/hr.

Running 40% ABV at 1003 watts and zero reflux with SPP packing gave 4.2 L/hr in your still.
I can not explain that. It would happen if the burner was more effective or was running at higher watts, like 1400 watts. Or, maybe the packing gives a higher vapor velocity through the column and prevents any passive reflux.

haggy
1 edit on SPP's HETP

[haggy]

bunny,

You probably know the following table, I just searched and found it:

The number of theoretical plates depends on the size of the SPP.

I also just found your post " A year in the hole" where you say you have 2mm X 2mm SPP from manu. So, yes, according to the table, you can probably get 70+ theoretical plates and azeo. Seems like you are doing that now, running slow at a 4.4 RR.

Very impressive, 164 strips in 12 months and a lot of low wines through your 2" x 56" LM reflux column.

haggy

[bunny]

bunny, thanks for the feedback. I will try to answer your questions.

haggy,

Thanks for trying, however, I'm still a little lost.

I know the HD templates do not really fit spp.
I believe if you pack ss scrubbies carefully you can obtain hetp of 4" (100mm).

I have the spp chart from your last post.
How accurate it is I don't know.

I have it in my head that manu originally stated his spp to be 2mm x 2mm x 0.25mm.
Currently, and just maybe his numbers have always been 2.4mm x 2-3mm x 0.25mm

image.png (9.65 KiB) Viewed 720 times

I tried Odin's method for determining hetp and came up with 1.6cm for manu's spp and about 2cm for GrapeNuts sized lava.
My accuracy is not guaranteed.

Today, I'm wrapping up another 28l spirit run.
I've come to another one of those thing I can't explain.
I took a zero reflux volume measurement between heads and hearts.
I captured 70ml in 1 minute through the packing and boiler temp 184*f.

A few minutes ago I took another zero reflux volume measurement.
I captured 69ml in 1 minute through the packing and boiler temp 204*f.
I expected the volume to drop 20-40% with the much lower boiler alcohol content.

Could this have something to do with the fact my column is pretty much full of azeo?

This may be wrong, but it's how I've been determining my RR.
I take the 1 hour zero reflux volume measurement, (4.2l), subtract the 1 hour take off rate (560ml) from the first number (4.2 -.560 = 3.64)
Then divide 3.64l by .560l = 6.5 to 1

I presume this is my RR but does not account for the hetp count in the column.


TB:
I don't have a smart phone and I'm not to much of a photographer, how ever I will fiddle with my old Panasonic camera and see if I can do better.

[haggy]

bunny,

The HETP of 1.6 to 2 cm you calculated agrees with the Table and would give your 143 cm reflux column the 70+ theoretical plates. You are making azeo, so this number may not be way off.

It is hard to explain the other two items. Try this:

The vapor rate from the boiler should decrease as alcohol is boiled off.
Unless, when there is no reflux liquid,, it is just the top plate that determines the take-off rate and the top plate is at 94-95% in both cases giving the same 4.2 L/hr.

Your 4.2 L/hr vapor and take-off rate with no reflux liquid at 1003 watts is higher than the 3 L/h vapor rate V with 560 ml/hr take-off that I and the HD Reflux program estimated with 40% ABV in the boiler at 1003 watts. With reflux, the below plate recieving the reflux liquid is cooled off, thus reducing its vapor generation capability.

Your RR calculation method is not valid. The 4.2 L/hr vapor and distillate rate was measured with L = 0 reflux, so D = V = 4.2 L/hr .
And L = V - D or L = 4.2 - 4.2 = 0
And RR = 0 / 4.2 = 0

I tried something on both calculators that would not happen in practice:
From my calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at total reflux ( D = 1 ml/hr ) and got 4.2 L/hr column vapor rate. RR = 5000
From the HD Reflux calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at total reflux ( RR = 5000 ) and got no distillate. D = 1 ml/hr
From my calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at D = 560 ml/hr and got 4.2 L/hr column vapor rate. RR = 6.5
From the HD Reflux calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at RR= 6.5 and got 4.95 L/hr column vapor rate and D = 660 ml/hr

[HDNB]

the time you guys are putting in here and the detail is mind boggling.

about 5 years ago, i was documenting how i was doing some big batches. of course it took time but overall what i was trying to do was reduce the time in for big batch ferments and turn over so a guy could shave time off filling a barrel for aging.

shady commented....you lost me at....(i dunno step 6) it was kinda complex.

you definitely lost me with that clock on day 3 and the summary at 25.9 hours....that is dedication folks.

[bunny]

bunny,
haggy,
I understand most of this stuff but some things are just a little shaky, especially the calculators.
Time isn't a problem for me. My current speed is actually enough. I'll never be able to do justice to a 28l spirit run in one day.
I would like to determine just how fast a take off speed (RR) I can safely run without any fears of being too fast.
Currently 560ml/hr is very safe and I will try going a little faster on the next run. My next step up is 0.48mm orifice that will produce 750ml/hr.
The HETP of 1.6 to 2 cm you calculated agrees with the Table and would give your 143 cm reflux column the 70+ theoretical plates. You are making azeo, so this number may not be way off.

It is hard to explain the other two items. Try this:

The vapor rate from the boiler should decrease as alcohol is boiled off. That's my impression also!
Unless, when there is no reflux liquid,, it is just the top plate that determines the take-off rate and the top plate is at 94-95% in both cases giving the same 4.2 L/hr. That sounds like a reasonable answer. Can any one else comment?

Your 4.2 L/hr vapor and take-off rate with no reflux liquid at 1003 watts is higher than the 3 L/h vapor rate V with 560 ml/hr take-off that I and the HD Reflux program estimated with 40% ABV in the boiler at 1003 watts. With reflux, the below plate recieving the reflux liquid is cooled off, thus reducing its vapor generation capability. The 4.2l/hr is actual measured liquid that the RC knocked down.




From here on you have lost me with calculators I don't fully understand.
Your RR calculation method is not valid. The 4.2 L/hr vapor and distillate rate was measured with L = 0 reflux, so D = V = 4.2 L/hr .
And L = V - D or L = 4.2 - 4.2 = 0
And RR = 0 / 4.2 = 0
I'm probably wrong here but let me try to explain as plainly as I can.
The 4.2l is everything the RC condensed. If it's everything, that explains why there is no new reflux until the collecting has stopped.
I believe the RR is calculated by subtracting the distillate take off from the total condensed amount and then that smaller number is divided by the distillate take off. 4.2 - 0.560 = 3.64, 3.64 divided by 0.560 = RR = 6.5



I tried something on both calculators that would not happen in practice:
From my calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at total reflux ( D = 1 ml/hr ) and got 4.2 L/hr column vapor rate. RR = 5000
From the HD Reflux calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at total reflux ( RR = 5000 ) and got no distillate. D = 1 ml/hr
From my calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at D = 560 ml/hr and got 4.2 L/hr column vapor rate. RR = 6.5
From the HD Reflux calculator;
I put 94% ABV in the boiler and ran at 1003 watts at RR= 6.5 and got 4.95 L/hr column vapor rate and D = 660 ml/hr

[Saltbush Bill]

I can only hope that no newbies try to follow this and think that this is a "How To Run A LM Reflux Column" manual.
Give me one thermometer at the top of the column and a couple of dozen cuts jars any day.
I gotta wonder how you guys boil an egg?

[bunny]

the time you guys are putting in here and the detail is mind boggling.

about 5 years ago, i was documenting how i was doing some big batches. of course it took time but overall what i was trying to do was reduce the time in for big batch ferments and turn over so a guy could shave time off filling a barrel for aging.

shady commented....you lost me at....(i dunno step 6) it was kinda complex.

you definitely lost me with that clock on day 3 and the summary at 25.9 hours....that is dedication folks.

HDNB:

I must apologize for how poorly my first posts on this thread turned out. The photography was just atrocious and at the time I couldn't get the lighting right. Other than the time, you couldn't tell much of anything that was going on.

I wanted to show you could watch and follow the temperature to learn how and what was going on inside your reflux column. I wanted to let others know it's alright to stop and re-start your boiler tomorrow without any real consequences. Lastly, I wanted to show when to stop collecting hearts by using the thermometer at about mid-way up the column. (some would say 2/3 the way up).

Sorry if I (we) lost you along the way. I should probably re-write the whole thing using drawings. (That doesn't sound much better )

bunny