Understanding plated columns before I build

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

I've been stillin for a little over 2 years now (about 18 runs) with a 2" x 12" (riser) pot still, using stripping and spirit runs. It is modular, and I also have a 2" SS tee, a 2" x 6" spool, and a CSST RC coil that I add to convert it to a CCVM still for making neutral.

I have a few kegs and some TC hardware, and I think I want to build a 3" perforated plate column (flute).

However, before I go down that rabbit hole I'd like to confirm my understanding of flutes. I've read several threads on flutes and flute builds, and here is what I THINK I know about them:
  • Flutes are used to produce flavored product (whiskey, rum, etc) just like pot stills
  • Flutes produce at higher ABV (dependent on design & configuration, such as # of plates)
  • Flutes can produce directly from the wash, eliminating stripping runs.
  • Flutes can compress heads and hold back tails
  • Flutes can generally produce more product than pot stills from the same amount/ABV of wash
  • Flutes can be run faster than pot stills.
Anything I missed?

Once I confirm my understanding, I will add drawings of my design ideas for additional feedback.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by bunny »

higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am I've been stillin for a little over 2 years now (about 18 runs) with a 2" x 12" (riser) pot still, using stripping and spirit runs. It is modular, and I also have a 2" SS tee, a 2" x 6" spool, and a CSST RC coil that I add to convert it to a CCVM still for making neutral.

I have a few kegs and some TC hardware, and I think I want to build a 3" perforated plate column (flute).

However, before I go down that rabbit hole I'd like to confirm my understanding of flutes. I've read several threads on flutes and flute builds, and here is what I THINK I know about them:
  • Flutes are used to produce flavored product (whiskey, rum, etc) just like pot stills
  • Flutes produce at higher ABV (dependent on design & configuration, such as # of plates)
  • Flutes can produce directly from the wash, eliminating stripping runs.
  • Flutes can compress heads and hold back tails
  • Flutes can generally produce more product than pot stills from the same amount/ABV of wash
  • Flutes can be run faster than pot stills.
Anything I missed?

Once I confirm my understanding, I will add drawings of my design ideas for additional feedback.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.


Sorry, I can't help you with the flute.

I do have a question about your CCVM.
How tall is your packed column and what is it packed with?
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

bunny,
My 'Column' is the 2" x 12" copper riser, a 2" x 24" SS spool, a 2" SS Tee, and a 2" x 6" SS spool, all tri-clamped together. I use a CSST coil reflux condenser in the top. It is packed with a roll of copper mesh at the bottom, then filled with lightly crushed ceramic filter media
crushed_media.jpg
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by bluefish_dist »

Not sure a column is faster than a single run of a pot still. I could strip 100 gal in about 2/3 the time as a spirit run on my column. They are faster than a 2x run as it’s one slower run and done.

If doing a vodka column, a vm is a good choice, be it a ccvm or regular vm, both will make similar products. I would go a minimum of 3” or even 4” as it will be faster if you have enough power. Easy to neck up with a adapter from 2”. If you want neutrals, packed is far cheaper and will hit higher purity than plates for the same height.

My suggestion would be buy 6-8ft of spools, pack it with ss scrubbies, then put a vm head of some sort on top. That will make a fine neutral.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am
I think I want to build a 3" perforated plate column (flute).
I've built several perf plate columns and only used them a couple times before recycling the parts.
I prefer bubble caps over perf plates. I also recommend, to always do a stripping run.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:49 am
... It is packed with a roll of copper mesh at the bottom, then filled with lightly crushed ceramic filter_media.
I've thought about doing this but haven't got around to it.
Could you start a new post, so we don't hijack higgins plated column build. :thumbup:
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Setsumi »

Flutes do flavoured or brown spirits well. 4 plates will not give you true neutral. Myself agree with Shady on first strip and then spirit runs. Yes it does compress heads and tails, how much is related to number of plates and reflux ratio vs take off speed.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:51 am Not sure a column is faster than a single run of a pot still....
A typical batch for me consists of 3 identical 13 gallon AG mashes, each taking about 3 hours to strip. Totals around 10-12 gallons low wines. Then I'll do about 8 hours on the spirit run. So about 18 hrs stillin time per batch, +/- a few hours.

I'm thinking with a plated column I can run each 13 gallon mash for finished product. Surely 3 single runs for finished product won't take that long. And I would not necessarily be tied to collecting low wines till I have enough to run.
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:51 am My suggestion would be buy 6-8ft of spools, pack it with ss scrubbies, then put a vm head of some sort on top. That will make a fine neutral.
As mentioned in the original post, I already have a 2" reflux column (CCVM) that I use for neutral. I'm quite satisfied with it.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

shadylane wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:12 pm I've built several perf plate columns and only used them a couple times before recycling the parts.
I prefer bubble caps over perf plates. I also recommend, to always do a stripping run.
What did you not like about perf plates to make you stop using them?
With plated columns, is there a quality difference between a single run and stripping first, like there is with pot stillin?
Setsumi wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:46 pm Flutes do flavoured or brown spirits well. 4 plates will not give you true neutral. Myself agree with Shady on first strip and then spirit runs. Yes it does compress heads and tails, how much is related to number of plates and reflux ratio vs take off speed.
I've already got a CCVM for neutral. I'm only looking at a plated column for whiskeys, rums, etc., and then only if I can make better product or spend a little less time. I've got an idea for stacked single plate sections so going from 1 to x number of plates is easy.

What would be a typical takeoff speed for a 3" 1 to 4 plate system? I do about 1.5 LPH (liters per hour) on my 2" pot still.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by DAD300 »

with no RC or dephlag reflux, a plated column is close to a pot still. But there will always be some reflux induced by the plates.
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:09 pm
shadylane wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:12 pm I've built several perf plate columns and only used them a couple times before recycling the parts.
I prefer bubble caps over perf plates.
What did you not like about perf plates to make you stop using them?
Perf plates have a narrow range of operation. AKA low turn down ratio.
At lower power, the reflux will weep down the holes and the plate will run dry.
At the start, it can also be difficult to get the downcomer traps filled with liquid for the same reason.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Setsumi »

higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:09 pm
I've already got a CCVM for neutral. I'm only looking at a plated column for whiskeys, rums, etc., and then only if I can make better product or spend a little less time. I've got an idea for stacked single plate sections so going from 1 to x number of plates is easy.

What would be a typical takeoff speed for a 3" 1 to 4 plate system? I do about 1.5 LPH (liters per hour) on my 2" pot still.
I cannot say anything about speed on a 3" plater. And on my 4" my take off is slower than most, between 1.4 to 1.8 lt per hour.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Saltbush Bill »

higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am Flutes are used to produce flavored product (whiskey, rum, etc) just like pot stills
With the addition of a packed section they can also be used to make neutral.
higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am Flutes produce at higher ABV (dependent on design & configuration, such as # of plates)
Dependent on plate number more than anything.
higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am Flutes can produce directly from the wash, eliminating stripping runs.
The majority of plated column owners that I see on the majority of forums that Ive been involved with do one and done runs," using wash only"........there is another much smaller group who like to run a mix of low wines and wash......I'm included in that group. Really it comes down to personal preference if you go that route or not ......both work.
higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am Flutes can compress heads and hold back tails
Correct.
higgins wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:59 am Flutes can be run faster than pot stills.
A good average speed imo for a 4 inch four plater is 2 to 2.5 L an hour......a 3 inch will be quite a bit slower.
Is there a reason that you want to go 3 inch instead of four? A 3 will be fiddlier to build and the cost difference is probably not that great.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by bluefish_dist »

Didn’t catch that you had a long packed column already. If you want a plated column for brown spirits, then yes perf plates, but I would only do 2 or 3. No need for 4 for a flavored spirit. I like perf plates, I found they run faster (almost 50% for me) than caps and I had no issues with a narrow window. Also easy to make. Lots of small holes was my answer. About 30w per hole for a .070”. I expect a 3” will be 2l per hour takeoff. I was around 4l/hr on my 4”.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

Everybody likes to watch a flute run.
On a sieve plate, Ya pretty much need to see the plate in order to maintain control.
A bubble cap plate on the other hand, can run all by itself without folks peeking in the window. :ewink:

If you want the ability to run fast, use a bigger diameter bubble cap plate.
This way, you can have fast and still be able to run slow if needed.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

Thanks for the great responses ... seems like my understanding of plated columns is not too far off.
Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:48 pm Is there a reason that you want to go 3 inch instead of four? A 3 will be fiddlier to build and the cost difference is probably not that great.
I think I can live with a 1.5 to 2 LPH takeoff rate on a 3". If I do a one and done, a 50 liter 8% wash only has about 4 liters pure alcohol, so probably around 2-4 hours run time (about the same as a stripping run). But you are right - I could go to 4" without much more cost and would have more flexibility.

One last question on platers.
  • Is the quality of product from a one and done run any better/worse than doing strip/spirit runs? (of course if I build it I will try both ways to see for myself)
Thanks so much for the feedback I've received so far.

I'm about to head out to go to our bi-weekly Tuesday afternoon BLAST meeting (Brown Liquor Appreciation Society Tasting). Today is whiskey with wheat as an ingredient. I have a 2 yr old wheated bourbon that I'll be taking.

Tomorrow I'll show my design and ask for feedback on that.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Ben »

I think 4" would work out well, you have 5500w which is plenty of power for it. Remember that takeoff rate is not pulling pure alcohol, the percentage will depend on the number of plates, beer strength, and how you run it. I find a 12 gallon charge @ 8% on 5500w takes around 4 hours on a 4" perf column with 5500w available (I use 2-3kw after heat up is done), more if I am struggling/not paying enough attention. A 3" will take at least half again that much time.

Strip and spirit vs one and done produces something different, try each and see what you think. Both are valid, I prefer different things for different grain bills, so just keep playing until you are satisfied.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by bluefish_dist »

I have posted this before, but it seems relevant here as well
I have posted this before, but it seems relevant here as well
higgins wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:31 am Thanks for the great responses ... seems like my understanding of plated columns is not too far off.
Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:48 pm Is there a reason that you want to go 3 inch instead of four? A 3 will be fiddlier to build and the cost difference is probably not that great.
One last question on platers.

[*]Is the quality of product from a one and done run any better/worse than doing strip/spirit runs? (of course if I build it I will try both ways to see for myself)
If you can do 4”, I would. I have never wanted a smaller column, but I always went for production as fast as possible. I also ran way faster than most here. I would pull 1/2 gallon in 12 min at max output on my 6”, so that was around 25-30 min when running 4”. That was max output. Because I increased reflux during the run, that rate is not sustainable for the whole run. Maybe the first hour or so on a 100 gal boiler. For your small boiler, I expect it would be a matter of min before you have to slow down due to depleting the alcohol from the boiler. This means even a 4” might be 2 hrs of run time.

Back to the is plated the same as two pot still runs. Short answer, no, not exactly the same. I believe it can be very similar if you detune to 2 plates. With 3 or 4 plates I found I stripped more flavor, also a smoother product. Having both, I only ran the pot still for stripping runs. Just never felt it allowed as much control of the output like a column.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by haggy »

higgins,

I have reviewed many posts on perforated columns and summarized the information in the thread "Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics". I developed an Excel spreadsheet calculation for these operations.

You said;
I think I can live with a 1.5 to 2 LPH takeoff rate on a 3". If I do a one and done, a 50 liter 8% wash only has about 4 liters pure alcohol, so probably around 2-4 hours run time (about the same as a stripping run). But you are right - I could go to 4" without much more cost and would have more flexibility.
So here are my spreadsheet results for the above 3" column 2 plate with sieve plate open area of 6.5% making a whiskey or rum product. I did a 2500 watt, 2 liter take-off run and it should take about 4 hours and make about 4 liters of hearts at 78% ABV. If you had 3 sieve plates, the hearts would be about 85% ABV. A 4" column would do about the same with these set points. The 4" could run higher pot watts without flooding and do higher take off rates. I can post a 4" run calculation if you would like.

image.png

image.png

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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Ben wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:48 am I think 4" would work out well, you have 5500w
That's about double the power needed after initial heat up.
Ben wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:48 am on 5500w takes around 4 hours on a 4" perf column with 5500w available (I use 2-3kw after heat up is done), more if I am struggling/not paying enough attention. A 3" will take at least half again that much time.

Those figures sound pretty close to spot on to me Ben.
higgins wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:31 am I think I can live with a 1.5 to 2 LPH takeoff rate on a 3"
I've never run a 3 inch....but my gut feeling is you will battle to achieve 2L an hour without dragging tails through.
Even if you go four inch I'd not try chasing the figures blueifsh is dishing out......very few if any plated column owners I've personally met can achieve those sorts of take off speeds while still producing a decent product.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

Based on all the great feedback I think I've settled for a 4" sieve plate column with 3 plates.

Now here is my idea: Build individual plate sections from inline sight glasses and tri-clamp together, any number you wish.
I've done a lot of searching, but haven't found anything like this before. Here is a drawing of what I'm thinking:
Plate Section.png
I need to disassemble the sight glasses to replace the silicone gaskets. I would use ring gaskets made from PTFE sheet.
The idea is to sandwich the sieve plate between the gasket and the glass cylinder, using a ring gasket below and above the plate, and at the top of the glass. The downcomers would have a half coupler soldered on the top end (trimmed to 1/2" height) and are a friction fit into the plate. A 1" cap will be soldered to the bottom end. When not in use the downcomer can be pushed up into the sight glass for storage.

I have found a source for 4" inline sight glasses for $27 ea (+ shipping). As long as shipping is reasonable, it looks like a 3 plat column will cost me no more than $150 - probably closer to $100. Seems pretty easy to make, and easy to make more if needed.

I'm thinking I can use a 4x2 reducer at the top so I can use my 2" CCVM RC coil (CSST) in place of a dephlegmator. It can handle more than 3kw during neutral runs, so should be sufficient for the plater. (The 2" x 12" copper spool is there to raise the shotty output above the boiler and add more copper prior to the product condenser)
Fluted column.png
So ... am I totally off base here?
Is this too crazy of an idea?
Tell me why I should not do this.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Sandwiching ptfe sheet made gaskets between the glass, plate and couplers could be tricky. Unlike silicone, ptfe doesn’t really squish much. It could work if everything was absolutely square and torqued down evenly, if not, you have some major leaks to manage.

The CCVM coil will work fine as an RC for a plater. I use a VM head on mine and like how it runs. I know other people on here that use CCVM for plates and like the results. Will your RC not handle more than 3000W? You might want a bit more knockdown power for those sieve plates, although I’ll wait for others to chime in on that as I only have experience with bubble caps.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by 30xs »

I usually only run in the 2500-3000 range on my 4” sieve plate. Id venture to guess his coil would work. It would be nice if it had a bit more capability, but he'll probably never need it.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

Here's a way to stack several plates while using only one set of end caps.
I got the seals from Stilldragon and wrapped them with ptfe tape.
https://stilldragon.com/4-crystal-dragon-gasket.html
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

The downcomer cup needs to be 2 times deeper than the liquid on top the plate.
If it's not, the vapor will take the easy route and go up the downcomer instead of bubbling up through the holes. When that happens, the downcomer will quit working, liquid can't drain down because of the rising vapor and the top plate will flood while at the same time lower plates will remain dry. :ewink:
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by higgins »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:29 am Sandwiching ptfe sheet made gaskets between the glass, plate and couplers could be tricky. Unlike silicone, ptfe doesn’t really squish much.
My fallback plan is to use expanded PTFE tape, 1/4" w x 1/8" thick, very compressible, a bit more expensive.
eptfe.png
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:29 am Will your RC not handle more than 3000W? You might want a bit more knockdown power for those sieve plates
I'm pretty sure my RC coil will handle more than 3K, but I've never tried it.
shadylane wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:03 am Here's a way to stack several plates while using only one set of end caps.
Shady, that's pretty cool, but it also means you can't add or remove a plate without disassembly.

Thanks for the tip on the downcomer. It does need to be 3/4" dia, right? I may switch to elbows like in your pic. How much space needs to be between the bottom of the downcomer and the plate below?
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

higgins wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:05 pm
How much space needs to be between the bottom of the downcomer and the plate below?
I've seen where the downcomer cup was sitting on or even part of the plate below.
My thinking is that space would be better used for holes.
To answer your question, 1 inch is good enough.
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Ben »

higgins wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:42 am Based on all the great feedback I think I've settled for a 4" sieve plate column with 3 plates.

Now here is my idea: Build individual plate sections from inline sight glasses and tri-clamp together, any number you wish.
I've done a lot of searching, but haven't found anything like this before. Here is a drawing of what I'm thinking:
Plate Section.png

I need to disassemble the sight glasses to replace the silicone gaskets. I would use ring gaskets made from PTFE sheet.
The idea is to sandwich the sieve plate between the gasket and the glass cylinder, using a ring gasket below and above the plate, and at the top of the glass. The downcomers would have a half coupler soldered on the top end (trimmed to 1/2" height) and are a friction fit into the plate. A 1" cap will be soldered to the bottom end. When not in use the downcomer can be pushed up into the sight glass for storage.

I have found a source for 4" inline sight glasses for $27 ea (+ shipping). As long as shipping is reasonable, it looks like a 3 plat column will cost me no more than $150 - probably closer to $100. Seems pretty easy to make, and easy to make more if needed.

I'm thinking I can use a 4x2 reducer at the top so I can use my 2" CCVM RC coil (CSST) in place of a dephlegmator. It can handle more than 3kw during neutral runs, so should be sufficient for the plater. (The 2" x 12" copper spool is there to raise the shotty output above the boiler and add more copper prior to the product condenser)
Fluted column.png

So ... am I totally off base here?
Is this too crazy of an idea?
Tell me why I should not do this.
Works fine.
0923211710.jpg
Just size the seive plate to fit right inside the gasket, get gaskets that are at least as thick as the copper you want to use. It doesn't have to be perfect (it is a leaky plate by design). This is how all of milehi's flutes are built (where I sourced the parts).

I love the glass globes, no messing with flashlights or being at the right angle to see, I can be anywhere in the vicinity and see what is going on.
:)
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Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by shadylane »

higgins wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:05 pm
Thanks for the tip on the downcomer. It does need to be 3/4" dia, right?
3/4" dia works for me on a 3" or 4" plate, 1/2" was too small and caused drama.
Trial and error is the best way to figure it out.
Here's the design of downcomer cup that has worked best of all the other options I've played with.
Spit a piece of tubing and solder it to the side of the downcomer, then solder on a bottom.

Don't look at the weird plate next to it.
It took a few mods to make that one work. :lol:
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Saltbush Bill
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Understanding plated columns before I build

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Downcommer design is one of the possible bottle necks that can cause flooding in plated columns imo. You will need at least 3/4 on a 4 inch column. Look at Sporicals build to see how he flared the tops......this does help by increasing the area of the entrance to the downcommer.
Entrance areas is where the bottle neck occurs imo......the more area there the better.
Other things to think about .......note that almost all commercially made plated columns are sold with 4 plates. Why is that ? Once you start the build it's not much harder to build a 4 plater....easier than add I g another plate at a later date.
Very easy though to remove one though if you don't like four.
Noticed also that your talking 4inch sight glasses.
It's only cosmetic, but imo 4 inch glasses on a four inch column look way to big.....2 or 3 inch looks better...
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