Irish style "single pot" mash

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Hey folks, a couple of questions from my end here (ferments on the grain & no mash-outs, in contrast to the typical Scotch stories).

Got used to mash 4.7 kilos of 'allgrains' in 14 liters of water (1:3 ratio). After 3-4 days of fermentation it smells like cookies (not sour at all) but I see I could get somewhat 1-2% of alco more if I'd let it bubble for a whole week (the enzymes are alive and they go on with biting kasha on the bottom).

So far, always stripped it after 4 days. Anyways, I'll run it thrice on my pot, after all. And the questions are:

1. Is it worth to wait for a week? My greed will 'reward' me with a bunch of esters from extra acids. Do I need'em all? My 'Scotch' attempts are always pasteurized and typically get ready in 72hrs = they have zero acidity before I start boiling it all.

2. Are there credible links to read about the normal Irish time of fermentation?

[Ben]

Yes, the extra time is worth it. The yeast are doing all kinds of work in that time, plus the free sugar/alcohol conversion. You are also making your beer more resistant to scorch by letting all the sugar ferment out.

I visited Teeling when I was in Dublin a few years back. They run 72 hour ferment schedules. But you can't compare a professional distillery to your home fermentation schedule. They have the mash chemistry and schedule perfected, and hit their temps every time, they have fermentability optimized. They have their chemistry worked out, they know exactly how much yeast to pitch, the yeast is at optimum health and effectiveness, there is no lag phase. Their temps are consistent, controlled within a tenth of a degree, their minerality, acidity and nutrition is known, and corrected. They are running a dual fermentation, 24 hours in wood and 48 hours in stainless, the stainless section is very likely pressurized which reduces ferment times. They are also fermenting off the grain which is going to be faster. They are getting their ferments to go completely dry in that time.

All the little inconsistencies and irritations (those you can control, and can't) in your home brewing program doesn't exist in a large scale professional distillery.

Give your ferments at least a week. I think you will notice an improvement in your product if you can wait an additional week after your ferment is completely dry. If you want to ferment every 3 days just pick up more fermenters and alternate. You aren't limited by space and your income isn't tied to turnaround times like a distillery is... use that to your advantage. If you need to make more size up your fermentation space.

If you really want to do 3 day ferments, it can be done. But you need to really be on your game and have a strong understanding of the mash/ferment chemistry, as well as temp control. You will also need to be able to make and time yeast starters. It's really easier at our scale to double or triple ferment space.

[shadylane]

I'd watch, wait and let it finish.

[8Ball]

Ferment on the grain and let it finish on its own.

Here is my take on “triple distillation,” and I picked it up from interpreting what I read elsewhere here I think by somebody named “Harry.”

First distillation: strip out your low wines until all of what you collect is 25-28% abv.

Second distillation: Do a spirit run of your low wines. Take foreshots and toss them into the fire starter jar. Take a narrow heart cut, save the wide heads & tails as feints.

Third and every subsequent distillation: make your boiler charge volume for the rest of your spirit runs to be 60% low wines & 40 % feints. Continue to make narrow heart cuts and recycle your heads & tails into your next spirit as feints.

This will give you a very nice spirit to age or leave white.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Wow guys, thank y'all so much for your replies

I visited Teeling when I was in Dublin a few years back.

Cool write-up much-much better than any credible link.

I'd watch, wait and let it finish.

Is no-bubbling or final gravity the criterion of such a finish?

Here is my take on “triple distillation,” and I picked it up from interpreting what I read elsewhere here I think by somebody named “Harry.”

First distillation: strip out your low wines until all of what you collect is 25-28% abv.

Second distillation: Do a spirit run of your low wines. Take foreshots and toss them into the fire starter jar. Take a narrow heart cut, save the wide heads & tails as feints.

Third and every subsequent distillation: make your boiler charge volume for the rest of your spirit runs to be 60% low wines & 40 % feints. Continue to make narrow heart cuts and recycle your heads & tails into your next spirit as feints.

This will give you a very nice spirit to age or leave white.

Not sure if I got it completely. Is it always triple or at the start of the project only? Do you join hearts of the second with hearts of the third?

Here's the chart I was using for my 100% rye.

And for my Irishers now I use the schedule a bit easier:

[shadylane]

I'd watch, wait and let it finish.

Is no-bubbling or final gravity the criterion of such a finish?

I'd use both to decide, mostly the not bubbling anymore.
But keep in mind that a bacterial infection could cause the fermenter to start bubbling again

[8Ball]

… Do you join hearts of the second with hearts of the third? …

[/quote]

No. The very first run (“at the start of the project”), you obviously do not have the feints yet, so you do a strip and spirit only. Keep those first hearts. On all subsequent runs, you will have low wines and FEINTS for your spirit charges.

It is the feints that wind up being triple distilled in the manner described previously. The first time during the strip. The second time during the spirit runs. The third time (“triple”) during the next spirit.

Each spirit run with wide heads & tails cuts produces a lot of good feints and a very nice narrow hearts cut. When you add the feints back into the next spirit you are doing a form triple distillation. By keeping the amount of feints included in your boiler charge to 40% of the total charge, you are creating a desired flavor profile.

[Ben]

It is the feints that wind up being triple distilled in the manner described previously. The first time during the strip. The second time during the spirit runs. The third time (“triple”) during the next spirit.

That's my interpretation too. Part of the distillate is really only "double" distilled, but the process is called triple pot still. Makes sense since there is no reason to run good hearts another time.

Is no-bubbling or final gravity the criterion of such a finish?

Bubbling isn't a good indicator of anything. An airlock can bubble from a temp change causing some degas, but if your seal isn't perfect you can have activity with no bubbling. Take a hydrometer reading, if it is below 0.999 you are probably done, if it is above then take another one in a couple days. If the reading doesn't change you know fermentation is complete, or stalled (depending on the reading).

[shadylane]

Bubbling isn't a good indicator of anything.

Not to confuse airlocks and the ferment itself bubbling.
When I say bubbling, I'm talking about sticking my face in the fermenter to listen and look.

[Ben]

Bubbling isn't a good indicator of anything.

Not to confuse airlocks and the ferment itself bubbling.
When I say bubbling, I'm talking about sticking my face in the fermenter to listen and look.

Ah yeah, that could be confusing for sure. I was talking about airlocks specifically.

[shadylane]

Ah yeah, that could be confusing for sure. I was talking about airlocks specifically.

Is an airlock needed?
Many distilleries use open fermenters.
I cover my fermenter enough to keep the critters out. But that's only me.
Some folks here like to wait before distilling, for that a closed fermenter with an airlock would be good.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

When I say bubbling, I'm talking about sticking my face in the fermenter to listen and look.

So do I sticking my face here and there in

Bubbling isn't a good indicator of anything.

Not to confuse airlocks and the ferment itself bubbling.
Ah yeah, that could be confusing for sure. I was talking about airlocks specifically.

Me, using airlocks mostly for beers (which should not be distilled)

It is the feints that wind up being triple distilled in the manner described previously. The first time during the strip. The second time during the spirit runs. The third time (“triple”) during the next spirit.

That's my interpretation too. Part of the distillate is really only "double" distilled, but the process is called triple pot still. Makes sense since there is no reason to run good hearts another time.

Here's the point I'm getting more and more confused.
So, the picture below is way out of what you two are talking about, eh?

Would you please gimme your picture then?

By keeping the amount of feints included in your boiler charge to 40% of the total charge, you are creating a desired flavor profile.

By the way: does this 60/40 just mean volume to volume ratio, despite the strength of the mixed components, which is not really the same?

[shadylane]

Here's the chart I was using for my 100% rye.

And for my Irishers now I use the schedule a bit easier:

image.png

I'm not convinced adding the feints back into the next run makes a better whiskey.
I figure distilleries do it out of necessity, tradition and they're going to age for years in a barrel.

What I do, is save whiskey feints until I have enough to reflux distill into Vodka.

[Ben]

Is an airlock needed?

It depends?

I don't airlock fruit ferments, loose fitting lid works fine.

I tend to be lazy and distill when the weather is nice, or its convenient, and I like secondary ferments, so grain ferments go under airlocks... I figure an airlocked off grain beer can sit for months without worry so it takes pressure off... one less stressor in the hobby. I also prefer to reuse yeast, it stays clean longer under an airlock.

Pro breweries/distilleries do all kinds of stuff, fully open, airlocked, pressurized, hybrid, wood fermenters, wash backs, stainless, etc. I say focus on one, work with it until you get it down and enjoy. I have often considered building an oak washback just for distilling, my big hang up is where it will live. It will need some sort of temp control to be outside, and it puts me on a schedule both to keep the oak wet and to get stuff in the still in a timely manor. I guess that would force me to fill barrels faster! Buckets work good for now

Here's the point I'm getting more and more confused.
So, the picture below is way out of what you two are talking about, eh?

Would you please gimme your picture then?

It's all very confusing, and ultimately up to you. From viewtopic.php?t=64400

From Middleton:

There is a good article on it here, with 3 more diagrams: http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2012/ ... tland.html

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Here's the chart I was using for my 100% rye.

And for my Irishers now I use the schedule a bit easier:

image.png

I'm not convinced adding the feints back into the next run makes a better whiskey.
I figure distilleries do it out of necessity, tradition and they're going to age for years in a barrel.

What I do, is save whiskey feints until I have enough to reflux distill into Vodka.

Not bad idea too, Shady.
But I have never noticed any peculiarity of potentiating bad things when adding feints back, even for the Scottish (double). Of course, the heads get more "sharp" and concentrated but they leave me alone always at the same temp. Plus, I have a nose and tongue to check it out.
Besides, I get more and more lazy to assemble my reflux since I got the copper dome

[Ben]

I recycle feints too. Gives me a better overall yield and I don't make or consume neutral so I just rerun them. It also keeps me from getting greedy and cutting too wide (since I am going to add the feints to the next batch anyway). The off flavors are a tiny percentage of what makes up the feints, so I figure it's got to be mostly good stuff in there.

This is one of the reasons I wish there were more hobbyists around, these details might be the difference between good and great whiskey, would be nice to more readily trade samples.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Is an airlock needed?

I also prefer to reuse yeast, it stays clean longer under an airlock.

This makes sense,,, for off-the-grain "pasteurized" thangs.

It's all very confusing, and ultimately up to you. From viewtopic.php?t=64400

That's the topic I've missed.
Thanks for the link, Ben.
I'ma learn it out now...

From Middleton:

I know this picture very well and... I would send the heads of their 2nd run down the sink to the "reflux still collector". And the heads of the 3rd run I would add to their 2nd run. But it's all ultimately up to me

There is a good article on it here, with 3 more diagrams: http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2012/ ... tland.html

Yupp, I've been reading this Teemu's article down, up and right-to-left for years. Sometimes I use all those semi-quadruples for especially difficult cases. But it's better to avoid such 'advanced' cases during the fermentation. Killing the cause and not fighting the effect.

Thanks again!

Gives me a better overall yield and I don't make or consume neutral so I just rerun them. It also keeps me from getting greedy and cutting too wide (since I am going to add the feints to the next batch anyway).

[VLAGAVULVIN]

It's all very confusing, and ultimately up to you. From viewtopic.php?t=64400

There's a lapse, at least one that I can see.

That feints receiver (their 2nd pot's collector) should have somewhat 70-75% by vol., and not 30-35%.

And... in that way they seem to catch all butyl-, amyl- and other higher alcohols just into the final product.

Looks like I know the way better:
.

.
(No.1 vessel is anything over 40% AbV during our 1st run)

[Stonecutter]

Here ya go Vlag

http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2012/ ... d.html?m=1

[BrewinBrian44]

My brain hurts. Maybe I’m dumb haha.

I’ve been interested in attempting to make an Irish style whiskey and had no idea how complex the multiple distillation and feints management were. I find pretty much all these diagrams to be very confusing. The little sketch Vlag posted makes a bit more sense to me. I was wrong to think 3 distillations were simply for one additional hearts clean-up after the second run. I suppose it makes sense that good Irish whiskeys are perceptibly clean but still have bold grain flavor.

What I seem to be getting from these diagrams is a zero waste system and perpetually recycling feints? Am I wrong here? Foreshots seem to be synonymous with heads as well. Kinda cool that there are molecules in their spirits that are ancient from their origin of the distillery opening.

So in this zero waste system, how do the distilleries manage the buildup of poisons over time? From what I’ve read about methanol, it’s become old logic that it’s isolated early in the run and rather comes through the entire run in small quantities, so perhaps the methanol “in” is the same as the methanol “out,” not causing a build up in their spirits over time.

[SaltyStaves]

I’ve been interested in attempting to make an Irish style whiskey and had no idea how complex the multiple distillation and feints management were. I find pretty much all these diagrams to be very confusing.

Best to ignore how a select few Scottish distilleries run their multi-fraction distillations. It will just add to the confusion. They are working with malted barley only. The names are also different between the two countries, even though they use the same words. In Scotland, 'Feints' are everything after the hearts and 'Foreshots' are everything before the hearts. In Ireland, they will call them Heads, Tails and Weak Feints (the combination of both).

If you want to make Single Pot Still Irish-style, then it is going to have at least 30% raw and 30% malted barley. Typically run three times and the 'Feints still' (second distillation) is typically going to have a charge that is a higher ABV than this forum promotes. The third distillation will end with a heart cut above 80% ABV.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Here ya go Vlag

"Why, tell me the reasons why
Try, still I don't understand"

Actually, I do. They receive their product of a certain profile under the conditions of a fermentation mode that is convenient for them in commercially significant quantities and at the cheapest cost. But I can't get why I shall copy them. Do I care of expenses? Nah, but I value my time and do not want to garbage up half the house with tails, half-feints, semi-heads and so on.

Best to ignore how a select few Scottish distilleries run their multi-fraction distillations.

My brain hurts. Maybe I’m dumb haha.

I’ve been interested in attempting to make an Irish style whiskey and had no idea how complex the multiple distillation and feints management were. I find pretty much all these diagrams to be very confusing. The little sketch Vlag posted makes a bit more sense to me. I was wrong to think 3 distillations were simply for one additional hearts clean-up after the second run. I suppose it makes sense that good Irish whiskeys are perceptibly clean but still have bold grain flavor.

What I seem to be getting from these diagrams is a zero waste system and perpetually recycling feints? Am I wrong here? Foreshots seem to be synonymous with heads as well. Kinda cool that there are molecules in their spirits that are ancient from their origin of the distillery opening.

So in this zero waste system, how do the distilleries manage the buildup of poisons over time? From what I’ve read about methanol, it’s become old logic that it’s isolated early in the run and rather comes through the entire run in small quantities, so perhaps the methanol “in” is the same as the methanol “out,” not causing a build up in their spirits over time.

First off, let's forget about methanol. Leave it to all those plummy palinkas, apple-ish calvadoses and other ferments high in pectin. For whiskeys, we have it there in trace amounts. The countrysiders all over the world drink their single-runs for decades and cannot die, nevertheless. These hillbillies cannae even get blind. All we try to remove has to do with aestetics more than with safety. We need a nice smell and a lovely taste, don't we?

All we can do with on-the-grains is remove this crust on the second day of fermentation. But this is more a matter of one's own choice. And it causes some losses both in yield and taste/aroma.

Next. The higher (saturated) alcohols. They are more stinky and not so tasty as methanol, lol. But the badass yeast made them in significantly greater quantities than methanol. As long as we are not hillbillies we try to remove them. If we use boka or 5-plates fluite then they tend to sit deep inside till the latest part of our run. But we go Irish here, right? The pot! So, they try to leave us with the heads. And the lower % AbV of the load - the better they do it. Thus, we have 2 possibilities to make it effectively:

Because later, all we can do

is to remove fatty acids if we tend to get more floral product than bread-ish. Cause if we like bread-ish we go Scotch (double), not Irish (third strengthening distillation won't remove fusels).

Summary.
1. If I hate fusels and don't wanna wait for 10 years beating around my cask then I take longer heads during the 2nd run. And it's a good idea to let down the sink the foreshots of the 1st run. Yeah, losses... OK, keep all them fores for reflux still.
2. If I like cake, bread, sweet waters effect and so forth then I "do it Scotch".
3. The more I have unmalted grains / corn / rye or oat flakes in my mash the more I think about the 3rd run's reasons and benefits.
4. If it happened me to poop into my ferment then I think of 5 plates system and reflux. Bad joke.

[NZChris]

You don't have to copy the complicated feints recycling protocols used by commercial Irish style distillers to scavenge as much product as they can to make your own very nice version. They have to do that to maximize profit, you just have to make liquor to enjoy yourself.

Keep it simple.
Strip to the Low Wines ABVs they use. Collect High Wines to the ABVs they use. Use all of your skills to choose a blend that you like from the Spirit run, then dilute to the ABVs they use for aging.

Treat the feints as you usually do, or experiment with them.

You will need to run longer and use more energy doing the necessary distillations than you do for double distilling with a simple pot still.
Because I have a preheater, there is little extra time and cost involved. Late in the strips, there is a lot more alcohol coming from the wash in the preheater than there is from the wash in the main still.

A 200l ferment gives me roughly 25l of High Wines for a triple distilled Spirit run.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Keep it simple.

A 200l ferment gives me roughly 25l of High Wines for a triple distilled Spirit run.

According to the very first scheme in this thread, I get one jar of "common feints", which is only 1/20 of the volume of my ferment. Easy to store, impossible to confuse where and what to add

[Uncle Jesse]

Keep it simple.

A 200l ferment gives me roughly 25l of High Wines for a triple distilled Spirit run.

According to the very first scheme in this thread, I get one jar of "common feints", which is only 1/20 of the volume of my ferment. Easy to store, impossible to confuse where and what to add

Man, I don't know about you but I have one still. Imagine how many runs I would have to do to get the final product in these diagrams.

I remember years ago I saved up enough feints to do a "Queen's run". It took forever.

[NZChris]

When I built my first still, I already knew that a preheater was a nice addition for doing multiple stripping runs from a large fermenter, but I didn't really realize how much more useful and economical they could be until I tried triple distilling.

[NZChris]

I remember years ago I saved up enough feints to do a "Queen's run". It took forever.

Quite a few years ago, before I retired, I had a feints collection build up over so many years that it was damned near drinkable as it was. It was only a bit too much hint of cardboard that made me run it.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Man, I don't know about you but I have one still. Imagine how many runs I would have to do to get the final product in these diagrams.

UJ, what diagram are you talking about?
.

.
Here we are and one still is enough.
No even thumpers required
3 "straight" runs...
.

.

It was only a bit too much hint of cardboard that made me run it.

Uh-huh...

[squigglefunk]

i never knew making irish whiskey took so many charts and graphs! holy shnikes

I know jameson uses a fractionating column as part of their process... it's definitely not "triple pot distilled" like your "kinda jameson" chart there.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I know jameson uses a fractionating column as part of their process... it's definitely not "triple pot distilled" like your "kinda jameson" chart there.

Quite possible, you are right. Because I got this "kinda" from the Russian Interwebs. Where can I read about the true Jameson's process to learn out more? Thank you.