? about proof

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sadie33
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? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

I add sugar and vodka to fresh fruit from our farm and make what we call a cordial. I have been doing it for years with black berries or peaches or blueberries. I let it sit for about 6 months or longer, strain off the fruit and it's amazing.

In 2021 we had an abundance of prune plums so I did a batch with those and didn't really love it. So it sits here in my glass carboy.

I was thinking of straining off the fruit and running it. But I have no idea it's proof. the vodka I use if 80 proof, but after the fruit juices have leached into it and all the sugar, how would I find out the actual proof?

I guess I could add a couple gallons of distilled H2O to cut the proof, but I'd still be nervous it's over 40%.

I have a 5 gal pot still, not sure if you need to know that.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you could just use a spirit hydrometer to check the proof. I just don't know enough about it whether any sugar content would throw off the proof/% ABV.

If you're going for neutral then if you have the volume, just dilute it a LOT and you should be fine. You don't need distilled water. You could use RO (Reverse Osmosis) water which should be cheaper.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Dougmatt »

Is there residual sugar or any solids in the wine / wash? If not then agree with salt on the hydrometer. If there was residual sugar, any added (backsweetening) sugar or solids in the wine (ie not fully cleared) then the hydrometer wouldn’t be accurate and you would need to run a dillution calculation.

Regardless if you had any significant amount of lower proof solution that you added 80proof to, then there is nearly zero chance that it is over 40%….

Edit: reread your post and see you added sugar, so in that case the hydrometer will be inaccurate. What volume of wine did you start with, what proof was it (if you know otherwise will guess) and what volume of vodka did you add?
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

I usually use 12 cups of sugar to 12 cups of berries and 1/5 of vodka, BUT with the prune plums I just cut them in half and couldn't really measure them out. I'm not sure how much fruit I used.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Steve Broady »

If you know you put a full 750 ml bottle of 40% ABV vodka in there, then it’s still in there. There’s 750*0.4 ml, or 300 ml, of ethanol in there. So take whatever your total volume is and calculate your ABV from that.
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Re: ? about proof

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By the way, I just did an experiment like this. Check out viewtopic.php?t=89065 I haven’t done the spirit run yet, but the wine fermented nicely and distilled beautifully. You don’t even need to strain the fruit. Just treat it like a regular fruit wine fermentation. My advice is to figure out what your final ABV target should be (I wanted to keep it under 10%), then dilute the cordial down until it will reach that target after fermentation.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Brain fart. If you added 80 proof to fruit then the end product can only be 80 proof or less. If at all concerned, just add a bit of extra water.
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Re: ? about proof

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:24 pm Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you could just use a spirit hydrometer to check the proof. I just don't know enough about it whether any sugar content would throw off the proof/% ABV. <— Nope. It won’t work. The alcohol (P&T) hydrometer measures alcohol in water by the ratio of density. Fruit juice and/or sugar will ruin the measurement because alcohol density is LESS than water and sugar solutions will always be HEAVIER than water.
More importantly, fruit juice with added sugar in the cordial very likely will scorch in your boiler, caramelizing or worse. So attempting to distill it may make something worse than the fortified prune juice.

If it were me, I’d keg and force carbonate the purple syrup. Then serve it sparkling with a shot of seltzer and an orange slice.
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Re: ? about proof

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still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:33 pm More importantly, fruit juice with added sugar in the cordial very likely will scorch in your boiler, caramelizing or worse. So attempting to distill it may make something worse than the fortified prune juice.
Sorry, I missed that you were thinking of just distilling it as it is. I’ll second that concern about scorching the sugar. Dilute and ferment it first, if you don’t like ss’s suggestion of just finding a way to drink it as it is.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Steve Broady »

If it were me, I’d ferment and redistill. You’ve got a little over 5 lbs of sugar, plus whatever was contributed by the fruit. That’s about right for around 4 gallons of wine, in my opinion. And at that volume, you’ll only have a couple percent alcohol, so the final product won’t be too strong for the yeast to handle.

I’d dilute it down to about 4-5 gallons total, give it some nutrients and maybe a handful of oyster shells, let it ferment out dry, and distill. Make a plum crazy eau neau de vie.
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Re: ? about proof

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I'm a total newb when it comes to distilling and fermenting. If I understand correctly if I pitch the yeast, it will "eat" the sugar that would burn on the bottom of my pot still.

most of my reading involving fruit and fermenting is it needs some enzyme, which I don't have.

The only yeast I have is a bakers yeast, will that work?

I've also decided to throw in the rest of all my cordials sitting on fruit. I have some blueberry and a peach. I was planning on measuring it out and topping off with H2O to make the 5 gals. I think I'll strain off all the fruit; can't imagine it will add any more flavor after it's been in there for years.

I can't find the 3 pk of air locks I bought. :roll: I have a bucket of sweet feed fermenting. The airlock stopped bubbling a week ago, but there is still some activity so I'm letting that sit longer. Would it be okay to take the lid and airlock from that bucket and replace it with just a reg lid? (no hole, no airlock). I was thinking I could just place it on top and not really tighten it all the way down.

thanks everyone
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

oh , when you guys talk about oyster shells, do you mean the kind I throw my chickens, or is it something different?
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Re: ? about proof

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Steve Broady wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:39 pm By the way, I just did an experiment like this. Check out viewtopic.php?t=89065 I haven’t done the spirit run yet, but the wine fermented nicely and distilled beautifully. You don’t even need to strain the fruit. Just treat it like a regular fruit wine fermentation. My advice is to figure out what your final ABV target should be (I wanted to keep it under 10%), then dilute the cordial down until it will reach that target after fermentation.
Thanks for posting that! That's awesome! I have a ton of blueberry jam and peach jam I made, I could throw a jar of those in. There were talk of enzymes. I have looked into the enzymes because come harvest season I will have a ton of stuff. But it seems to expire soon, like March if I order it now. I'll have to go look and see what enzymes, it seems they are needed.

thanks again!!
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

I read the grape brandy recipe. It seems I could follow that. I have the can of tom. paste, the sugar ratio seems correct. Can I use bottled lemon juice? or does it have to be fresh squeezed?
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Demy »

My take is: add yeast and ferment the added sugar then distill. The hydrometer will not work in the presence of sugar. To calculate ABV you can base it on volume like for liquor, I made a video about it. In any case it will be less than 40 abv because you have diluted your vodka with sugar and fruit juice.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Steve Broady »

I'm far from an expert, but I'll do my best to answer as many questions as I can.

Yes, yeast eat sugar, creating ethanol and CO2 as byproducts. Any yeast will work. Different yeasts have different temperature, alcohol, and pH preferences, and they each give different byproducts. The various strains have been cultivated and bred for specific conditions and flavors. My advice is not to worry about it. I wasted a LOT of money early on buying fancy specialized yeast that I don't need or even want now. Baker's yeast is perfectly fine. Once you're comfortable with than, then and only then should you move on.

Oyster shells: yup, same as you give your chickens. You can use the egg shells as well. The point is to put something in there to react with the acid. Yeast make things acidic as they nosh, and there's a limit to how low a pH they can stand. Sugar washes are known for stalling because of that, and a simple preventative measure is a handful of some form of calcium carbonate. Oyster shells, egg shells, limestone, marble, all will work. Just boil them first if you have any concerns at all about contamination.

Be careful about adding more stuff. Imagine for a minute that you're making up a sugar wash from scratch, and think about how much sugar you'd put in it. My general comfort zone is about 8 lbs in 5 gallons. You can go higher, but then you're stressing the yeast and making unpleasant flavors, or worse. If you do it right, you'll never need to worry about the alcohol tolerance of the yeast. Keep it under 10%, and make more if you want more alcohol. I don't usually worry too much about the initial gravity, unless I'm taking notes for future reference. I know what works, and I stick to it and let things sort themselves out. For this specific situation, pay attention to the total sugar you're adding to the wash, regardless of source. Cordial, jam, jelly, fruit, whatever. Keep it it around that 1.5 lb/gallon mark, and the yeast will be happy. Anything else that gets thrown in along with the sugar is just flavor along for the ride. If there's alcohol in it, that's where you'll need to think about the yeast's alcohol tolerance, because it will be there ON TOP of the alcohol from the sugar. For example, if you calculate that you're adding enough sugar to ferment dry at 10%, but you're starting out with 4% ABV from the cordials, then you'll end up at 14% total. That's on the limit of what yeast like. Either water it down so that your starting ABV is lower, or make sure there's less sugar so that your final ABV is lower.

Enzymes: I believe what you saw in my thread was a reference to pectic enzymes. As I understand it, they help break down pectin in fruit and thus let the yeast get to the sugar inside the cell walls. I don't know, but I would like to learn, if pectic enzymes could reduce methanol production by converting the pectin into something that ferments differently. In any case, you don't NEED them. They're useful for fresh fruit, especially something like apples that have a lot of pectin. If you've cooked, frozen, macerated, or otherwise abused the cell walls in the fruit, then the yeast ought to be able to get to all the sugar easily enough. As with anything, it's not a requirement, it's just another tool in your toolbox to make your job as brewer and distiller a little easier.

A little general advice, if I may. First and foremost, remember that people have been making alcohol since before the dawn of recorded history. It's NOT complicated, magical, or difficult. People have been distilling alcohol for centuries, many of them with absolutely no formal training and only the most rudimentary equipment, and the vast majority without access to this wonderful forum. Don't get too wrapped up in the details and complexities of this hobby. That will come with time. The basics are simple. Master the basics. Yeast + sugar = alcohol. Ferment it, boil it, condense it, drink it. Don't add anything dangerous in the process. Everything else is just details. Beyond that, a little math and common sense will serve you well, so embrace both. You'll be doing a lot of fermentation, so you need to understand the basics of that and how to estimate what results a recipe will give. You'll be doing a lot of dilution, so you need to understand the basic math involved there. There are on line calculators and apps for your phone which can help with both. Use them. You'll find that in no time at all, you're so comfortable with the basics that you barely even think about them. That's when it gets fun!

I hope this helps a little. I'm sure others can expand on what I've said, or explain it better. This is just a peek into how my brain works.
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Re: ? about proof

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okay thanks so much everyone. I am so glad I didn't just throw it my pot and distill it!! I found my airlocks (never took them out of the box :roll: ).

I am going to strain off the fruit, add H20 to get 5 gal, bring it up to the temp to pitch yeast then put in the fermenter. I will have to do this tonight as I am making kaiser rolls at the moment for dinner. :D

This is what I'm starting with:
fruit cordials.jpg
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Re: ? about proof

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You probably don't need to strain off the fruit, unless you just want to. It can't hurt, and might help.
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Re: ? about proof

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Steve Broady wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:59 am You probably don't need to strain off the fruit, unless you just want to. It can't hurt, and might help.
the peach is already strained, the plums don't want to come out of the carboy!! I figured they would just fall apart and slide right out-nope! I will probably end up throwing all the fruit in then.
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Re: ? about proof

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I got the plums out of the carboy with the help of my husband (Holding it upside down while I swirl them out with a fondue stick :lol: ).

I got 2.5 gal and I added H2O to 4 gal. the fermenter I have left is only a 5 gal and with needing the 4" headspace I didn't dare go any higher.

I heated it all up in my SS 5 gal pot to 110* F and pitched the yeast. Sloshed it a couple times between the two buckets for airation then put the lid on and airlock. :lol:

I took a brix reading with my refractometer before pitching yeast and it was 11. Just curious of the sugar content before fermenting.
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Re: ? about proof

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sadie33 wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:15 am oh , when you guys talk about oyster shells, do you mean the kind I throw my chickens, or is it something different?
Same ones.

I have a mortar/pestle and I grind them down first.
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Re: ? about proof

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sadie33 wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:15 am oh , when you guys talk about oyster shells, do you mean the kind I throw my chickens, or is it something different?
Most of them are, but chook grit is not idiot proof and it can wreck a wash if you use stupid amounts or leave it in the fermenter for too long after the ferment is finished. If using it and there is a chance that you might not be able to strip the wash when you intended, hang it in a string bag so that you can remove it when the ferment is finished.

I prefer whole shells.
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Re: ? about proof

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NZChris wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:00 pm
sadie33 wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:15 am oh , when you guys talk about oyster shells, do you mean the kind I throw my chickens, or is it something different?
Most of them are, but chook grit is not idiot proof and it can wreck a wash if you use stupid amounts or leave it in the fermenter for too long after the ferment is finished. If using it and there is a chance that you might not be able to strip the wash when you intended, hang it in a string bag so that you can remove it when the ferment is finished.

I prefer whole shells.
Good info. I've never had a problem but I haven't used them a lot.
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Re: ? about proof

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Uncle Jesse wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:44 pm Good info. I've never had a problem but I haven't used them a lot.
I know someone who used it and was then was called away for a job that lasted far longer than he thought it would and came home to a very expensive barrel of rum wash that he had to kick over. As long as everything goes well and life doesn't get in the way, a small overdose of chook grit is unlikely to be a problem.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Id suggest its unlikely to be a problem for 99% of people ......its pretty forgiving from my experience....Ive yet to have a problem.
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Re: ? about proof

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By learning from someone else's mistake, my plan is to not be another one of the 1%ers who kicks a barrel over.
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Re: ? about proof

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It's been almost 24 hours and no bubbling yet, no activity at all. I have only done 3 sweet feed mashes and they started bubbling in less than an hour. I'm not sure if the fruit will be different.

Could it be too much alcohol to start? I was thinking I could divide it in half and add more H20. Or could it be I forgot the shells?
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Re: ? about proof

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What did you put in? A complete list will help us figure out where the trouble is, or if you’re even having any trouble at all. It could just be a bit slow. Did you make a starter for the yeast?
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Re: ? about proof

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about 1/2 gal of peach "cordial", 1/2 gal of blueberry "cordial" and about 1.5 gal of prune plum "cordial". To that I added 1.5 gal of H2O. I usually proof my yeast, but my husband came in and was helping me drill the hole for my airlock and POOF I sprinkled my yeast (2 rounded Tablespoons of red star) on top of the mixture. Luckily it was the exact temp for the yeast 110*F.
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Re: ? about proof

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sadie33 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:06 pm I sprinkled my yeast (2 rounded Tablespoons of red star) on top of the mixture. Luckily it was the exact temp for the yeast 110*F.
That's could be one of the reason.. 110*F has probably destroyed most of the yeast as pitching over 95*F is not recommended, and 85 - 908F is preferred..

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