? about proof

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Steve Broady
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Steve Broady »

So you have 2.5 gallons of cordials with are probably in the neighborhood of 20% ABV, and you added 1.5 gallons of water. I suspect you’ve also got something like 10-15 lbs of sugar in there as well. You need to go back, figure out as accurately as you can how much alcohol and sugar you have, and then dilute it accordingly. My guess is you’re about 2x as concentrated as the yeast can stand.

I also suspect that your temperature might have been a little high. I bake a lot, and I rarely work with temperatures that high. If you’re just a little off, you could be killing the yeast. Keep it a little lower and you’ll be much safer. Not questioning your ability and experience with yeast, just making a suggestion.

The good thing is, you haven’t hurt anything. Just water it down, split it into a couple fermenters, and carry on. You might have to pitch more yeast, but that’s not a bad thing. The dead yeast will work as nutrients for the new stuff, which will be lacking in a sugar wash.

(Posting with Mars)
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

StillerBoy wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:18 pm
sadie33 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:06 pm I sprinkled my yeast (2 rounded Tablespoons of red star) on top of the mixture. Luckily it was the exact temp for the yeast 110*F.
That's could be one of the reason.. 110*F has probably destroyed most of the yeast as pitching over 95*F is not recommended, and 85 - 908F is preferred..

Mars
hmmm interesting. When I did my sweet feed mashes, I had a recipe so I followed it and it said to pitch at 90*F, which is what I did. I also did proof the yeast before pitching.

This time, because I had no recipe, I went with the directions on the yeast which said between 110-115*F.
Steve Broady wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:20 pm So you have 2.5 gallons of cordials with are probably in the neighborhood of 20% ABV, and you added 1.5 gallons of water. I suspect you’ve also got something like 10-15 lbs of sugar in there as well. You need to go back, figure out as accurately as you can how much alcohol and sugar you have, and then dilute it accordingly. My guess is you’re about 2x as concentrated as the yeast can stand.

I also suspect that your temperature might have been a little high. I bake a lot, and I rarely work with temperatures that high. If you’re just a little off, you could be killing the yeast. Keep it a little lower and you’ll be much safer. Not questioning your ability and experience with yeast, just making a suggestion.

The good thing is, you haven’t hurt anything. Just water it down, split it into a couple fermenters, and carry on. You might have to pitch more yeast, but that’s not a bad thing. The dead yeast will work as nutrients for the new stuff, which will be lacking in a sugar wash.

(Posting with Mars)
I think I will split it into two ferments, add enough H20 to get them each to 4 gal, then heat them each to 90*F and pitch the yeast.

thanks guys
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Steve Broady »

Note that you don’t have to heat them. It’ll ferment faster if you do, but I have used bread yeast at 70F often, with no issues. Going cooler might even give fewer off flavors, though it will take longer. If it were me, I’d make up a quart mason jar with plenty of yeast and just a little of your wash, watered down considerably. Get the yeast good and happy, then add them and let them do their thing.

Also, look up yeast nutrients.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I read this and gasped. Like Stillerboy mentioned above, to high of temp and you can kill off the yeast.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by StillerBoy »

sadie33 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:05 pm I think I will split it into two ferments, add enough H20 to get them each to 4 gal, then heat them each to 90*F and pitch the yeast.
Before rushing into splitting the wash, what is the SG, as that is your gauge as to whether to split or not..

You need to slow down some.. make a list of the the things that need to be done when making a wash, then follow the list..

There is a method and process to making any wash or mash, without that, one is all over the country, as your are experiencing..

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Re: ? about proof

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maybe I am using the wrong yeast. The yeasts I use say to pitch between 110-115*F for my Red Star and 120*-130*F for my fleischmann's yeast. Both I have pitched at these temps when making bread and NEVER had a problem with them proofing. They are rapidrise yeasts for breadmachines (though I don't own a bread machine).

I will take some out and start a mason jar going. I will do an experiment...I LOVE experiments. I will do 3 small jars. One I will not dilute and add yeat at lower temp. 2 I will dilute, one of those I will heat to the specified temp on the label the other I will pitch at lower temp and see what happens...

thanks again
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Re: ? about proof

Post by StillerBoy »

First this site is not about baking, this is a distillation forum, two completely different activities.. forget the baking experiences..

Pitching for fermenting, and using yeast for baking, are completely two different things..

And so is proofing yeast for a starter vera pitching yeast for fermentation, again are for different expect behaviors..

I've used both of those yeast with no issue when done properly, and proofing over 100*F is not advise for distillation..

Mars
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Dougmatt »

Ok Sadie…. First point, you are making alcohol not proofing dough which is what those instructions are for. Second point, in this case you are pitching yeast into a VERY hostile environment in this wash as high alcohol is bad for yeast. Third point, when you made your first batch of bread, you likely followed a recipe versus just throwing water, salt, flour, sugar and yeast in a bowl and hoping which is effectively what you’ve done here...

Right now it’s very obvious to those of us who have fermented 100’s of batches some of the problems here, so when people comment I suggest listening carefully when these people are trying to help you…..

Some things to know about yeast, and I am trying to keep this very simple:
- stress should be avoided at all costs as yeast stress causes production of the “bad stuff” or “off flavors”
- temperature dramatically affects fermentation byproducts ie… FLAVOR and being too high, too low or changing temperatures all create yeast stress
- yeast eats the wash sugars and produces alcohols (as well as CO2 which is why you use it in baking) and each strain has a tolerance level so if you add too much sugar, this will result in too high of an Abv which will stress your yeast resulting in incomplete ferment (stalled) and / or again bad flavors.
- getting too far below (acidic) or above (basic / alkaline) in PH will also stress your yeast and cause off flavors.
- when yeast has eaten all the available sugars, a natural process occurs where the yeast prepare to go dormant and “clean up” after themselves which is a very important part of the process so anything that keeps them from finishing (ph, running too soon, high Abv, etc) causes off flavors.

So Yes baking yeast CAN handle high temps, but in fermentation you should pitch in an “optimal” range which is usually below 90-95 because that yeast has days worth of work to do not hours and you want to make sure it has everything needed to be successful like a relatively steady temperate.

In this case, My guess is your Abv may be too high as you’ve already tumbled to, and maybe the high temp didn’t “kill” the bakers years BUT I guarantee at a minimum it stressed it and may have kept it from taking off which frankly you should hope for otherwise a lot of that “bad stuff” happened.

Edit: posted same time as Mars. Also want to clearly point out: in baking the primary intent of yeast is to create CO2 to cause the bread to rise, here we care about the alcohol not the CO2 so our process is designed to get the best alcohol result!
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

Thank you all for clarifying the yeast for me. NOW I understand, sorry it takes me so long to get things.

Just to note, I DID read about the yeast on the parent page. They tell you if the alcohol gravity is too high, or if the temp is too high it could kill/strain the yeast, but they don't tell you how high is too high.

I have been trying to figure out how much of my 4 gal wash is alcohol, sugar and water. The best I can figure is when I did the recipe I used a glass gallon jug and it would be full. That would be 2.6 lbs of sugar to 750ml of vodka and the rest fruit. that's where I get lost. I could calculate that when I poured all the cordial in my bucket and got 2.5 gal, that would be 2.5 batches which is 6.5lbs of sugar.

If I figure there was 750 ml alcohol per batch at 2.5 batches that's 1875 ml which is about 1/2 gal of vodka to 6.5 lbs of sugar. Then I added about 2-2.5 gal of H2O and the rest is fruit.

I took a SG with my hydrometer. I poured 1/2 cup of my wash in my parrot and it was 1.03. The wash was clear with no fruit.

I was told a ball park ratio of sugar to H2O should be about 1.5 lbs to 1 gal of H2O. So for my 6.5 lbs of sugar I should have about 4 gal of H2O. So I THINK all I have to do is add another 2-2.5 gal of H2O.

And then take another SG reading?...my brain hurts.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

yeast proof 1.16.23.jpg
I put 1/2 cup of my wash in with yeast at 77* and it proofed in 15 minutes. So I am thinking it was the temp of the wash and not too much alcohol.

I wish I had done this like 10 hours ago. When I think of all the math I did, the calculations, the conversions :evil: No, not really because although it pains me, I do want to FULLY understand what I am doing and how this all works.

I think I will put this in my wash, agitate it a bit and get the ferment going. As long as I am under the 40%, which now I think I am, it should be fine.
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Re: ? about proof

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sadie33 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:35 pm…And then take another SG reading?... my brain hurts.

I said this a long time ago:
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:33 pm If it were me, I’d keg and force carbonate the purple syrup. Then serve it sparkling with a shot of seltzer and an orange slice.
But you didn’t want to hear it. It’s no wonder your head hurts.
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Re: ? about proof

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still_stirrin wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
sadie33 wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:35 pm…And then take another SG reading?... my brain hurts.

I said this a long time ago:
still_stirrin wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:33 pm If it were me, I’d keg and force carbonate the purple syrup. Then serve it sparkling with a shot of seltzer and an orange slice.
But you didn’t want to hear it. It’s no wonder your head hurts.
ss
sorry, I don't like seltzer water, club sodas, tonic stuff like that. It's not that I don't WANT to hear it, it's just I didn't like the idea, but didn't want to say that. I guess I should have thanked you for the idea, it is a good one (if you like seltzer). When I tasted it with all the cordials combined, it didn't taste that bad and I almost thought about keeping it as is. But I figured I started down this path and wanted to continue.

My head hurts from the HOURS of reading...this post like 4x, the yeast post for like the 5th time. The post that Steve posted about a similar thing he did. I read that maybe 3x all the way through. I was doing math finding out how much 1 cup of sugar weighs, then multiplying that by how much I put in each batch, trying to guess how many batches were in my wash... converting 750ml to gals well I think you get it. I

Some people can read something and get it. Not me. I have to read again and again and again. Each time MAYBE something new will stick. It is REALLY hard for me to learn, especially when numbers are involved. It is very frustrating for me, but also for the people trying to teach me. I think it comes off like I don't listen, or care because you all don't know me. But I do care, and I will listen, it just takes me a bit to get it. (maybe more then a bit).
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

I have bubbles!!! :clap:
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Re: ? about proof

Post by squigglefunk »

sadie33 wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:39 am I have bubbles!!! :clap:
:thumbup: aw yeah the experiment continues
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Re: ? about proof

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This took forever to finish fermenting, but it is done. the ABV is 22%

Of all the things I have fermented (sweet feed and the UJSSM) this is what my husband is most interested in. :lol:

I am hoping to run it today or tonight. I was thinking of just doing one, slow run where it was made with store bought vodka already distilled once. But maybe it doesn't work that way. I don't need a really high ABV was hoping to drink this straight and not bled it with anything (another reason for a single run).

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Steve Broady »

I’d suggest doing the full process. Stripping run and spirit run. Yeah, there’s vodka in there, but it’s basically a fresh fermentation, so you’ve got all the heads, tails, etc. Plus, you’re working with a pot still, and it needs all the help it can get.

Consider a stripping run, collecting until there’s no alcohol left. Proof your low wines down to 20%, if they’re not there already. Then do a nice slow spirit run. It’ll probably make your final product somewhere in the 50-60% range, which you can age as you see fit, or proof down and drink white.
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Re: ? about proof

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Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:14 am I’d suggest doing the full process. Stripping run and spirit run. Yeah, there’s vodka in there, but it’s basically a fresh fermentation, so you’ve got all the heads, tails, etc. Plus, you’re working with a pot still, and it needs all the help it can get.

Consider a stripping run, collecting until there’s no alcohol left. Proof your low wines down to 20%, if they’re not there already. Then do a nice slow spirit run. It’ll probably make your final product somewhere in the 50-60% range, which you can age as you see fit, or proof down and drink white.
thanks, sounds like a good plan :thumbup:

hmmmm I have some canned home squeezed apple juice...do a stripping run, then a spirit run and maybe lower the proof with that...It's got everything else in there, peach, plum, blueberry...why not apple? :think:
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Re: ? about proof

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Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:14 am… Consider a stripping run, collecting until there’s no alcohol left. Proof your low wines down to 20%, if they’re not there already. Then do a nice slow spirit run. It’ll probably make your final product somewhere in the 50-60% range, which you can age as you see fit, or proof down and drink white.
Sadie,

Don’t water the low wines down to 20%ABV if you want to keep as much flavor as you can in the final spirit. Collect the low wines to 30%ABV, or more. It’ll keep more of the fruit favors for your spirit run.

Also, you may find more of the flavor comes over towards the front of the spirit run. So, be sure to collect into a number of jars so you can “rebuild” the flavor profile when blending.
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Re: ? about proof

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still_stirrin wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:57 am
Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:14 am… Consider a stripping run, collecting until there’s no alcohol left. Proof your low wines down to 20%, if they’re not there already. Then do a nice slow spirit run. It’ll probably make your final product somewhere in the 50-60% range, which you can age as you see fit, or proof down and drink white.
Sadie,

Don’t water the low wines down to 20%ABV if you want to keep as much flavor as you can in the final spirit. Collect the low wines to 30%ABV, or more. It’ll keep more of the fruit favors for your spirit run.

Also, you may find more of the flavor comes over towards the front of the spirit run. So, be sure to collect into a number of jars so you can “rebuild” the flavor profile when blending.
ss
I was only planning to dilute my low wines if they were over 40%.

I will collect in smaller amounts on the front of the run this time. Last time I think I went to big with my heads jars (300ml) I will do more like 150ml for the heads. I liked that amount.

thanks
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Re: ? about proof

Post by NZChris »

Don't do heads cuts based on volume, especially when you are trying to capture flavor. 'Heads' is the name for the early distillate that is left over after you have chosen your heart cut.

A lot of fruit flavor comes over early and late in both the stripping runs and the spirit run, so be careful not to lose them by taking large foreshots or shutting down early when doing the strips, by putting them in the heads and tails jars, or letting the Angels suck them out of open jars for silly amounts of time.
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Re: ? about proof

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NZChris wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:35 pm Don't do heads cuts based on volume, especially when you are trying to capture flavor. 'Heads' is the name for the early distillate that is left over after you have chosen your heart cut.

A lot of fruit flavor comes over early and late in both the stripping runs and the spirit run, so be careful not to lose them by taking large foreshots or shutting down early when doing the strips, by putting them in the heads and tails jars, or letting the Angels suck them out of open jars for silly amounts of time.
I am so new to cuts that I thought it would be best to just collect by volume until I start to learn when things change. If that makes sense. I am smelling, feeling and tasting( around 40%) so I can learn when those cut offs are.

If I don't know where they are yet, and I don't do it by volume, how else do I do it? (I'm not being wise, I just don't know of another way).

Tonight I am only doing the stripping run.
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Re: ? about proof

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I certainly won’t argue with people like still_stirrin. He knows more about this hobby than I’m ever likely to. However, I will explain my logic behind the 20%. I’ve done it for a few runs with a still very similar to yours, and I am pretty consistently getting my final product right in the 55-60% range without proofing down. My logic is that I’ve got to add water somewhere in the process, but putting it in with the low wines means it might help reduce smearing a little bit, makes my cuts a little more distinct, and hopefully carries a little of that precious flavor with it on its trip through the still. All of which I think makes it easier for me to get a good product that’s right in my target proof for aging, without having to add water after the fact.
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Re: ? about proof

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'Cuts' better describes what commercial distillers do, cutting 'on the fly' after years of experience of making the same products. That is not something I can do, as I don't have the experience to predict what effect the product at the spout will have if included in my final selection. That is why I collect in jars, then choose which of those jars to include in my heart cut after the run is finished. When I look back at the distilling notes I take during the runs, many of my guesses on what jars would, and wouldn't, be included in the hearts are wrong.

I decide on the jar volumes by estimating the total take and dividing by the number of jars I want to use. The more unfamiliar I am with the product, the larger the number of jars and the smaller the volumes I want. That said, if calculate 20 jars, I don't need 20 jars, as after a few jars the product should be a bit flavorless and have no obvious flaws and is always going to make the cut, so doesn't have to be stored separately or the jars tasted individually.

At the end of the run, I combine all of the obvious hearts, make up a sample at around 35% using a 5ml dipper and taste that, then alternately add to the sample from each end until I identify the jars that are one too far, use a spittoon and rinse with nice water between tastings.
Last edited by NZChris on Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by Deplorable »

Lots of ways to get there.
I stripping to a collected ABV of 30%, and add fresh wash to the LWs for the spirit run. Usually a gallon to a gallon and a half. That brings by boiler charges to 6-6.5 gallons at about 25% ABV. (5g LWs and 1 to 1.5g of fresh wash at ~8.5%)
My final blend ends up about 68% to which I add water to get to 60% for oaking.
I collect 300ml jars until I'm clear of the heads then switch to 600ml jars for about 6 jars then back down to 300ml until the run finishes and I crank the heat to strip the rest for subsequent runs.
I usually end up finding a jar or two in front of the 600ml jars and a few behind them that make the final cut after a day of airing out and a fresh sense of smell and taste.
When I was starting out, I collected everything in 300ml jars until I could determine on the fly when I was into hearts.
The onset of tails is easier for me to pick out so I can determine when to switch back to little jars.
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Re: ? about proof

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Steve Broady wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:07 pm I certainly won’t argue with people like still_stirrin. He knows more about this hobby than I’m ever likely to. However, I will explain my logic behind the 20%. I’ve done it for a few runs with a still very similar to yours, and I am pretty consistently getting my final product right in the 55-60% range without proofing down. My logic is that I’ve got to add water somewhere in the process, but putting it in with the low wines means it might help reduce smearing a little bit, makes my cuts a little more distinct, and hopefully carries a little of that precious flavor with it on its trip through the still. All of which I think makes it easier for me to get a good product that’s right in my target proof for aging, without having to add water after the fact.
60% is too low for most of the products that I want to age on wood, that's why I often aim for around 24-27% Low Wines.
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

I collected 11 cups of low wines. Boy does this stuff taste GOOD! I wasn't sure what to expect. My husband really likes it too.

I have 3 jars jars filled.
8 cups collected down to 40%
1.5 cups collected down to 30%
1.5 cups collected down to 20%

some said to collect to 30% some said 20% so I did both and can figure it out tomorrow. I will let them air for now. :D
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Re: ? about proof

Post by NZChris »

When reading stripping ABV advice, make sure you understand if the poster is talking about ABV at the spout, or ABV in the receiver, as you might not be happy with the results if you get it wrong.

I never know what the ABV is at the spout, as I only measure the ABV in the receiver, (a single vessel, large enough to hold all of the strip).
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Re: ? about proof

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NZChris wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:43 pm When reading stripping ABV advice, make sure you understand if the poster is talking about ABV at the spout, or ABV in the receiver, as you might not be happy with the results if you get it wrong.

I never know what the ABV is at the spout, as I only measure the ABV in the receiver, (a single vessel, large enough to hold all of the strip).
ahhh...good point. I think I knew that too, I read it in one of your other posts somewhere. (that you don't measure at the spout).

hmmmm...what to do next...I didn't dump my backset yet and have a little under 2 gallons. I could fire it up again tomorrow, putting ALL my low wines into a large container and collect until I get to...30% in the receiver?
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Re: ? about proof

Post by sadie33 »

still_stirrin wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:57 am
Steve Broady wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:14 am… Consider a stripping run, collecting until there’s no alcohol left. Proof your low wines down to 20%, if they’re not there already. Then do a nice slow spirit run. It’ll probably make your final product somewhere in the 50-60% range, which you can age as you see fit, or proof down and drink white.
Sadie,

Don’t water the low wines down to 20%ABV if you want to keep as much flavor as you can in the final spirit. Collect the low wines to 30%ABV,do you mean 30% at the spout, or for the all the low wines collected? or more. It’ll keep more of the fruit favors for your spirit run.

Also, you may find more of the flavor comes over towards the front of the spirit run. So, be sure to collect into a number of jars so you can “rebuild” the flavor profile when blending. thank you
ss
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Re: ? about proof

Post by NZChris »

I start by writing up a method for whatever it is I'm making before I buy the first ingredient.

As I do the research, I edit my notes, constantly massaging them into a workable plan, including noting any reasoning so that I don't forget any of the logic needed for success. During the runs, cuts, aging and sampling, I edit my notes. Those notes eventually become my guide for making that particular product.

Doing research includes making sure that the provider of the advice that you are reading knows their stuff and that you understand what they are saying.
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