Home Distiller

I did some searching and didn't come up with any clear answers, and maybe there aren't many right now...

People now say it's a myth that most methanol is concentrated in the foreshots, and that it is smeared throughout the run. I'm wondering if anyone has any data on this especially with different still types (reflux/pot).
Especially with a reflux still, I would assume the first 1-2% of the run would contain more methanol, given it's boiling point is much lower. But I get great flavor from fruit ferments on the first few drops out of the pot still that I'm tempted to keep.

Do the foreshots really contain more methanol?

Is there any data showing methanol concentrations in the beginning vs middle of a run?

Does a pot or reflux make a difference in that concentration?

Have YOU changed your mind on this subject for any reason recently?

So far, I'm ok with discarding a few millilitres for most whiskey and neutral, because it likely wont be in the final product anyway, but I'm curious if I should save it for brandy cuz it smells so dang good.

viewtopic.php?t=40606

Searching for relevant scientific research might get more reliable answers than asking for consensus of opinions on forums.

AFAIK one of the reasons that Methanol is used to denature Ethanol is simply because it can't be removed by any distillation process available to home distillers whether it be a pot or a reflux still .

If that were not the case folk would buy tax free denatured Ethanol , distill it and keep the good stuff .


If you read that topic NZchris linked , the Methanol "binds" to the water .
So even though it may have one of the lowest boiling points in the mix , it's "hanging on tight down in the boiler " while everything else makes its way up to the top .

Might be worth a read. viewtopic.php?f=63&t=81065

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:14 am viewtopic.php?t=40606

Searching for relevant scientific research might get more reliable answers than asking for consensus of opinions on forums.

thanks for the homework, I missed that one. I was asking for a general consensus since I still see a lot of mixed opinions here. I'll read through this thread.

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:20 am If you read that topic NZchris linked , the Methanol "binds" to the water .
So even though it may have one of the lowest boiling points in the mix , it's "hanging on tight down in the boiler " while everything else makes its way up to the top .

alcohol also "binds" to the water, and methanol having a lower boiling point than ethanol, should theoretically come off before or at the beginning of the heads (mostly).

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:14 am viewtopic.php?t=40606

Searching for relevant scientific research might get more reliable answers than asking for consensus of opinions on forums.

yup. this is the thread I needed. I'll try ro search better next time

the good news is you can make no cuts at all and still have a perfectly safe product to drink no matter where the methanol is!

The acetone will still give a nasty smell/taste and headache. Worth tossing fores just to get that out.

It's all there in beer and wine anyway...

Cheers,
jonny

Simply stated. There isn't enough methanol in a grain-based fermentation regardless of the fraction of distillate to cause any significant health problems. Moreover, the insignificant amounts of methanol aren't appreciably concentrated at any fraction. Methanol is a non-issue that only becomes a problem when someone contaminates the process or drinkable end-product either criminally or stupidly with wood alcohol, i.e., methanol. This issue continues to be raised because in history the Feds tried to discourage home brewing/distilling with scare tactic exaggerations and because nowadays whenever people are poisoned from methanol (usually in some third-world environment) it is newsworthy because bad news sells.

I had a scientific article on fruit brandies which argued that in high % ethanol environment like a reflux still metanol is associated with heads and in a low % ethanol environment like a potstil methanol tends to be associated with tails. BUT it is present in the whole run.

This thread corroborate it.
viewtopic.php?t=79718

Thanks for linking that, Setsumi. I need to re-read that.

One of the last articles I read on methanol, IIRC mentioned that methanol and ethanol have dissimilar bonds with water promoting different detectable curves throughout a distillation and change in ABV.

Wow. This is interesting. I'm embarking on a fruit brandy excursion. I get lots of fruits ( grapes,figs,peaches and plums come harvest time)from the greenhouses in my sister's area. I guess I shouldn't be keeping anything except my drinkable stuff.

This is one of those boiling point-based myths, which forgets that distillation isn't dealing with pure substances.

The boiling point of pure methanol is 64.7C; the BP of pure ethanol is 78.4C

And so it's often said that "the methanol comes off long before the ethanol" in distillation.

However, when ethanol, methanol and water are mixed together, methanol becomes less volatile than ethanol when the ABV of the mixture is below 40%.

Water, ethanol and methanol mix very well together...and in a mixture that has a greater percentage of water, the methanol is better at "hanging on" than the ethanol when the mixture is heated.

In the case of home distilling, where boilers are charged with low wines at 40% ABV and below, any methanol present will not move itself to the front of the run and pop out in an orderly fashion. The opposite will happen - methanol concentration will increase as the run time increases and the ABV in the boiler drops.

Methanol and ethanol can be separated via distillation, but it requires a constant feed of a very high ABV mixture to a reflux column.

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:14 am viewtopic.php?t=40606

Searching for relevant scientific research might get more reliable answers than asking for consensus of opinions on forums.

This forum is different than most.
A question asked in the newbie section gets not only opinions, but also links such as you supplied.

I wouldn't actually know what the consensus is, or if there is one, or how to find out what it is. Consensus does change, that's why they had to tidy up the parent site recently.

I know what I need to know for running a pot still and for recycling and reprocessing the feints.

When it comes to my reflux still, my tails are so bad that they get chucked under a tree and the heads go into the fuel jar to get used for firestarter, sacrificial runs and hand sanitzer, so knowing where the methanol concentrated wouldn't make any difference to how I run and collect and I've never bothered to research it to find out.

dunno where the methanol has gone.
i made 95 vodka from wheat. not doing anything different than anybody else here. had it tested at a lab, just an average blend from cuts no heads no tails, just clean hootch. a gas chromatography device showed "no discernible" methanol in the sample, measuring to 1 PPM
so wherever the methanol comes out of my distillation, it's not out the pipe into the collection jar.
i must be lucky.

HDNB wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:20 pm dunno where the methanol has gone.
i made 95 vodka from wheat. not doing anything different than anybody else here. had it tested at a lab, just an average blend from cuts no heads no tails, just clean hootch. a gas chromatography device showed "no discernible" methanol in the sample, measuring to 1 PPM
so wherever the methanol comes out of my distillation, it's not out the pipe into the collection jar.
i must be lucky.

There wasn't much to begin with. Plums ain't wheat and they contain and produce more methanol than wheat, that's why the likes of Slivovitz are the easiest distillations to do the research with and why there are regulations on the amount of methanol allowed in some fruit brandies.

My understanding is that pectins produce a lot of methanol. That means any fermented fruit can have issues with methanol. Research Apple palsy. Grains don’t have pectins and don’t make much methanol.

Imho the whole methanol myth is perpetuated by the feds to discourage home distillation. While rooted in prohibition where methanol was used as the denaturing agent, current practices for grain based distillations do not have an issue with methanol.

I feel as though very often the methanol word has historically ended up being a catch all word for any or some of the unpleasant or harsh constituents in the mixture that is not ethanol.

Consensus on methanol in foreshots?

Based on what is normally fermented.
There's more than enough ethanol present to be an antidote to the methanol.

Maybe a better question might be something like:

How do I concentrate enough methanol into my product, then go about drinking enough of it to get methanol poisoning symptoms when going cold turkey when stopping drinking it, using home distillation equipment?

To get methanol poisoning and suffer serious consequences from it, you have to get all of your ducks in a row.
Ignorance of what causes methanol poisoning and how to deal with it, is more dangerous than the methanol.

An even better question is, what are the symptoms of methanol poisoning and what do I do if I see it? (Give the patient a shot of brand name whisky).

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:28 pm I wouldn't actually know what the consensus is, or if there is one, or how to find out what it is. Consensus does change, that's why they had to tidy up the parent site recently.

I know what I need to know for running a pot still and for recycling and reprocessing the feints.

When it comes to my reflux still, my tails are so bad that they get chucked under a tree and the heads go into the fuel jar to get used for firestarter, sacrificial runs and hand sanitzer, so knowing where the methanol concentrated wouldn't make any difference to how I run and collect and I've never bothered to research it to find out.

See based on what I and most newbies learned (methanol always comes off early), I'd save the reflux heads and tails for another run, thus concentrating the methanol(?). Good to know the difference in concentration with a pot vs reflux.
I'm not concerned with consuming enough shine to get poisoned, more having a concentrated jar of poison anywhere in the run that someone gets into,which doesnt seem very likely.
The link Setsumi posted is helpful

chown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:36 pm See based on what I and most newbies learned (methanol always comes off early), I'

The question I have is where do you and other newbs learn this stuff .? YouTube? Facebook distilling groups? The instruction that come with stills?........it would be good to know??
Recently I've been looking at a few Facebook distilling pages, just out of curiosity.
Some of what I read there, and some of the practices used make me shudder.
A whole other world of hobby distillers mostly without a clue it seems.

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:15 pm Maybe a better question might be something like:

How do I concentrate enough methanol into my product...

That's an easy question to answer.
Starting with fermented sugars, it's impossible.

posting with Salty

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:45 pm

chown wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:36 pm See based on what I and most newbies learned (methanol always comes off early), I'

The question I have is where do you and other newbs learn this stuff .? YouTube? Facebook distilling groups? The instruction that come with stills?........it would be good to know??
Recently I've been looking at a few Facebook distilling pages, just out of curiosity.
Some of what I read there, and some of the practices used make me shudder.
A whole other world of hobby distillers mostly without a clue it seems.

Yes, instructions that come with stills (still spirits, brewhaus) and youtube videos, notably george from barley and hops. In my experience, almost everywhere I look says foreshots contain more methanol.

chown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:02 am
....instructions that come with stills (still spirits, brewhaus) and youtube videos, notably george from barley and hops. In my experience, almost everywhere I look says foreshots contain more methanol.

From what I've "read" at more scientific sources.
The ethanol to methanol ratio varies little, from beginning to end of a distillation.

chown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:02 am Yes, instructions that come with stills (still spirits, brewhaus) and youtube videos, notably george from barley and hops. In my experience, almost everywhere I look says foreshots contain more methanol.

If the majority of the posters who are expressing their opinions on a subject are wrong, that is still the consensus. That is why consensus doesn't hold much sway in my shed.

shadylane wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:18 am

chown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:02 am
....instructions that come with stills (still spirits, brewhaus) and youtube videos, notably george from barley and hops. In my experience, almost everywhere I look says foreshots contain more methanol.

From what I've "read" at more scientific sources.
The ethanol to methanol ratio varies little, from beginning to end of a distillation.

That's what I'm now learning. I run a homebrew supply store and distilling has picked up a lot. Over 50% of the distillers are getting turbo yeast and liquor flavorings and have the same assumption about methanol concentration that I do. I think this misconception is pretty prevalent outside of this website if you're not actively looking into it

chown wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:40 am That's what I'm now learning. I run a homebrew supply store and distilling has picked up a lot. Over 50% of the distillers are getting turbo yeast and liquor flavorings and have the same assumption about methanol concentration that I do. I think this misconception is pretty prevalent outside of this website if you're not actively looking into it

I'm not suppressed to hear that at all .
In Aussie , it's quite OK to say you home distill . Pretty much everyone knows someone that does .
I have had the same response from quite a few people that I have talked to.
It's like mad public fear . They all warn me to be careful and that Methanol is dangerous if you don't know what you're doing you will kill yourself or go blind .
When I have tried to explain to them the facts about Methanol , they look at me as though I'm completely misguided and unaware of the dangers .

I usually end up telling them I''ve been at it a long time and I'm still just fine . It's a hobby that I invest a the a lot of time studying .

It's only when I tell them that I know what to keep and what is bad , that they seem to come around . Kinda strange . .... ' cause the bad stuffs not the Methanol ..... but they don't care .



So I guess my point is that Still makers are going to say that Methanol is in the Foreshots simply because it carm's public fear to think you have got rid of it .
I also think that most of these places still say it because it's what they herd.