Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

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Sporacle
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Sporacle »

Steve Broady wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:15 am
Ben wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:59 am You've got good settling there, but it’s mislabeled. The light layer in the middle (just below the beer) is live, healthy yeast.
Thank you, this is exactly why I wanted to ask!

I’ve relabeled the image, mostly for the benefit of anyone coming along later. I hope the first version won’t be used as a reference, and that they see this one.
A2A1764E-AC57-4A46-AF51-9D8C06E8B3EF.jpeg
Thanks for the early morning laugh Steve, I was a little confused as to what the timber thing was until you labelled the "shelf" :D
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Steve Broady »

The yeast has been pitched in the next batch, and is already bubbling away nicely. Thanks to all that gave advice. I’m excited to see how this works out.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by EricTheRed »

Use an oil separator
Used in the kitchen to let broths settle so the oil will float to top and a tube from the bottom permits to drain from the bottom.
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Ben
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Ben »

Steve Broady wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:52 pm The yeast has been pitched in the next batch, and is already bubbling away nicely.
:thumbup:
:)
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Dougmatt »



Stumbled across this book today. Haven’t bought it yet, but seemed to be inline with the topic.
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

That’s it. No more reading!
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by subbrew »

That is a very good book Dougmatt. Probably overkill for what 95% of us do, but if you want the details it is a master level book
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

This is a great post and an awesome video posted. I just racked off my first SBBs all molasses rum into my boiler to run later tonight. I took the carboy and swirled everything in there and dumped it into a gallon glass jar. I want to use this for my next SBBs rum. I have a few more questions that I haven't been able to find.

How much of that jar would you use for your starter to pitch for your next ferment and how exactly would you do that?

If you collected the yeast from a rum ferment can you only use it for rum or could you use it for a whiskey as well?

How long can you keep the yeast in the fridge before you use it again?
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by subbrew »

To calculate the amount use https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pit ... alculator/ Choose the pitch rate as ale and the yeast type as slurry, leave the default slurry density.

You can use it for a whisky assuming you want the same strain of yeast.

As for time, you will get lot of different answers. If I have kept mine more than a couple of months I will do a test starter to make sure it is still viable. I also assume about 20% loss per month so will lower the slurry density accordingly using the above calculator.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Wouldn't the second layer in the jar be used, yeast hulls as a nutrient?
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by CoogeeBoy »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:31 am The challenge will be the “harvesting” of the yeast. It’s hard to collect the top (light & fluffy) and omit the lower layer(s) which is settled proteins and yeast hulls........
I use a small siphon made from air tubing for fish tanks, clear pvc, less than 1cm, cut an angle on the end so you can get the end of tube up close to yeast.
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

Dougmatt wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:09 pm

Stumbled across this book today. Haven’t bought it yet, but seemed to be inline with the topic.
I don't see a book or title... I must be blind or something. :egeek:
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

subbrew wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:48 am To calculate the amount use https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pit ... alculator/ Choose the pitch rate as ale and the yeast type as slurry, leave the default slurry density.

You can use it for a whisky assuming you want the same strain of yeast.

As for time, you will get lot of different answers. If I have kept mine more than a couple of months I will do a test starter to make sure it is still viable. I also assume about 20% loss per month so will lower the slurry density accordingly using the above calculator.
thanks subbrew, I'll check it out.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by subbrew »

sadie33 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:16 pm

I don't see a book or title... I must be blind or something. :egeek:
The link must not be working for you. the book is YEAST The practical guide to beer fermentation by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff.

I have the book. Very good if your are interested in all the biology and science of yeast.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Saltbush Bill »

sadie33 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:42 am How much of that jar would you use for your starter to pitch for your next ferment and how exactly would you do that?
You can use the whole lot if you want or just half of it.....less might mean that it takes off slower.....but then I've read stuff that says that could make better Rum.
There was a time that I never took any yeast out of the fermenter and just dumped the next lot of mollases / water /nutrients on top.
It worked, but the way I do it now works better IMO.
Try it your way, it will still work.

To clarify, the old way, add molases /water/ neut mix at fermentation temp...no new yeast......slower to kick off after a few generations.

T&T version......add boiling/ very hot dunder to fermenter, turns old yeast bed to yeast food.....add water, molasses, nutrients.....add new yeast .........kicks off fast , ferments fast.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

subbrew wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:41 pm
sadie33 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:16 pm

I don't see a book or title... I must be blind or something. :egeek:
The link must not be working for you. the book is YEAST The practical guide to beer fermentation by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff.

I have the book. Very good if your are interested in all the biology and science of yeast.
Thanks Subbrew, I'll check it out.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

sorry to hyjack your thread SteveBroady, but I didn't see the point of starting a new thread when you had this one.

I let my trub sit on the counter for 1/2 an hour like the video said, and it didn't separate. I waited all night and nothing. When I woke up this morning it looked like this: A picture of last night and one this morning
HBB trub before.JPG
HBB trub before.JPG (6.31 KiB) Viewed 1239 times
HBB trub after.JPG
HBB trub after.JPG (6.82 KiB) Viewed 1239 times
I wanted to harvest the yeast to use as started for my next Honey Bear Bourbon, but maybe I will boil it and use it as food instead. :think:
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by subbrew »

You would be fine taking a scoop of that slurry. Not sure where it came out of but if there was not a lot of grain residue it may just be mostly yeast so you are not seeing a separation.

remember - yeast wants to make alcohol. It will do that if you even give it half a chance.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

subbrew wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:30 am You would be fine taking a scoop of that slurry. Not sure where it came out of but if there was not a lot of grain residue it may just be mostly yeast so you are not seeing a separation.

remember - yeast wants to make alcohol. It will do that if you even give it half a chance.
It came from my Honey Bear Bourbon. I am going to make another batch soon. If I take a scoop, like 1 cup, and add like 1/2 cup of warm water into a Qt. jar and let it sit for about 20-30 min it should proof? Then follow the recipe and pitch the starter when called for? Like that?
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by subbrew »

because it is not dry, it will not proof like a dry yeast. If you are worried about viability, 48 hrs ahead of time make up a quart of sugar water and DAP, (or better yet, dry malt extract) aerate well and add a table spoon of slurry. It should be active within 12 hrs but perhaps 24 depending on temp and time dormant. If you are not worried, just pitch it directly, no need to proof.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by sadie33 »

subbrew wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:49 pm because it is not dry, it will not proof like a dry yeast. If you are worried about viability, 48 hrs ahead of time make up a quart of sugar water and DAP, (or better yet, dry malt extract) aerate well and add a table spoon of slurry. It should be active within 12 hrs but perhaps 24 depending on temp and time dormant. If you are not worried, just pitch it directly, no need to proof.
hmmm I haven't dealt with DAP or dry malt extract yet...maybe I will keep reading and try later. :thumbup: thanks!
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

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sadie33 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:07 am sorry to hyjack your thread SteveBroady, but I didn't see the point of starting a new thread when you had this one.

I let my trub sit on the counter for 1/2 an hour like the video said, and it didn't separate. I waited all night and nothing. When I woke up this morning it looked like this: A picture of last night and one this morning

HBB trub before.JPG

HBB trub after.JPG

I wanted to harvest the yeast to use as started for my next Honey Bear Bourbon, but maybe I will boil it and use it as food instead. :think:
You are getting stratification, its just hard to see. Rack or scoop the top inch or so off the solids out of that and put it into a jar of about the same size you are using now. Top that up with clean water, give it a shake and let it settle; you will see a thin, slightly creamy layer on the top as it settles. That will be your yeast layer. It will settle out better in the fridge.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Lblamboy »

Ben wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:21 am Dropping the yeast into a smaller jar will help.

The easy answer (but requires a graduated cylinder) is to pour off most of the beer, then as much of the yeast as you can. Drop a sample of that yeast into a graduated cylinder, chill and read how much yeast you have in the cylinder:

image.png

Once you have that number you can use the yeast calculator I posted earlier to figure out how much of the slurry to pitch.

After you have done it a few times you will have a really good idea of how much you need and it will be quick.
Following this thread.

Can you also elaborate on how to do the above measurement? I have several quarts of "pancake batter" material in pint jars, mostly in the fridge...all from an AG fermentation. The settling now has a reasonably clear layer on top, and somewhat more dense pancake batter on the bottom. I gather from this thread that I should be aiming to get the "middle layer" (though I don't see a big color difference in the batter, I know there is active yeast b/c I added a pinch of sugar to one jar to test) where the yeast is...and I can try to decant to capture it (though it sounds like some people like to keep a bit of trub as nutrients?)...but I'm lost in understanding the last step you mention about trying to decant the yeast, let it settle and then measure it somehow in a Graduated Cylinder? Please elaborate...I'm trying to figure out, roughly, how much of this I need to pitch for upcoming batches. In particular, I think I can read the chart, but I'm not sure how to be confident that the solids are actually yeast, and not just trub.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Ben »

The yeast will be a fairly thin layer, it will settle between the trub and the beer. This pic (from the internet) is a good example of a well settled column:
image.png
You want that thin white layer in between. If you can't get it to settle clearly you may just not be waiting long enough. If you feel like you have waited too long give it a shake and let it re-settle.

Your color delineation may not be as clear, these pictures are from beer ferments and the trub is usually colored by hop bits and various dark/specialty grains. Look for a difference in texture.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Lblamboy »

I tried this and it looks like I'll have decent results...fingers crossed.

I had lots of half-pint jars of pancake batter in the fridge trying to get separation, but I had SO much trub from an all-grain mash that I generally ended up with tons of trub and very little beer, and I never saw great separation of the pancake batter.

I tried to decant off the beer every time, and eventually I took a decent bit of the top trub from each jar, trying to consolidate it all, assuming that might separate, but I still just ended up with a bunch of larger jars with trub I hoped was inclusive of the yeast, and some other larger jars that I assumed were mostly trub.

I created a DME starter for jars I hoped had yeast, and pitched it last night...and I did see at least one airlock cycle this morning, so I think it's kicking.

On the Trub jars, I had assumed I would just boil that for more nutrient, but seeing bubbles after the jar transfers, I was curious, so I added a pinch of sugar to those trub jars, and sure enough, they are bubbling a little today too...so maybe I have more yeast than I realized! LOL.

I'm now thinking about washing the trub futher in a sideways carboy or something, using some water to try to get more separation than sludge...

IF I wanted to boil the trub for nutrients, though, how do I do that? Do I add water and just boil it in a pan, or maybe surround the mason jar in a boiling bath? I'm not sure how to make nutrient/yeast food from whatever I have leftover, once I decide I'm done harvesting this never-ending source of yeast from the cake of my AG mash! I've seen one thread here with an article saying the trub really doesn't provide much nutrient (which created a big debate), and that same thread suggested that some people are boiling the trub for like 24 hours?!? If so, that's a bit much IMO for a hobby nutrient substitute...I can grab Fermaid O/K or DAP for sugar washes if I need to...but it seems like most people on the UJSSM Recipe page say you really don't need nutrients beyond what the cracked corn provides?

Am I making this too hard?!
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by MooseMan »

If you want to turn your spent yeast into the best possible nutrient other than buying it, you need to autolyse it, not boil it.

Leaving it on top of the still during a run will get you way closer to autolysis than boiling it, but the full process is more like 24hrs at 40-50°c.

I just copied this from a website that I found when I was researching it a good while ago, to do it myself.


"Step 1 – Harvest yeast: Yeast from any beer can be used, but younger yeast will have more nutrients. I avoid yeast from heavily hopped beers for the reason stated above.

Step 2 – Wash the yeast: This is optional, but I’ve found that resuspending a yeast cake in 2-3 times its volume of clean water reduces flavour and colour carry-over.

Step 4 – Dilute the slurry into a thick liquid: Once your yeast is washed and settled, remove the liquid portion (I use a small siphon). This should leave you with a thick paste, similar in consistency to ketchup. Add clean water until it is liquid enough that you can pour it, but keep it as thick as possible. This step can be skipped if the yeast slurry is already pourable.

Step 5 – Heat it: Pour the yeast into an instapot, or seal in a jar an immerse in a water bath heated by your souse vide, and hold at 50C/112F for a full day. It will change colour and become runnier as autolysis progresses. In 24 hours the extract will be done.

Step 6 – Freeze or dehydrate: If you’re going to use the extract right away, add 1-2 tablespoons of the liquid per 20L/5 gal of beer, cider or mead. Bacterial will love to grow in this extract, so care needs to be taken if you want to store it. I’ve found two ways that work well: To freeze, place a sil-pad or parchment paper on a cookie tray,and spread the extract evenly across that. Freeze, then break into pieces and store, bagged, until needed. To dehydrate use a food dehydrator on its lowest temperature setting. Once dried, this is roughly equivalent to Fermaid-O and should be used at similar doseage rates."
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Lblamboy »

Sounds like the 24 hour heating plan I read about is the way to go, but that's a lot of work to save on inexpensive nutrients.

FWIW, the yeast I pitched are going nuts....less than 24 hours later the airlock was degassing every 4 seconds, and when I opened the UJSSM fermenter to stir the corn up a little, the surface was positively "sizzling" - like it was so active it literally sounded like there was bacon frying in a pan! LOL
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Ben »

DAP is cheap by the pound, and you need a tiny amount per ferment.

I am lazier about the yeast health these days... For nutrition I drop a little DAP, and a little of the yeast cake I don't need for ferment directly into the mash. The heat cycle of the mash is enough to kill the yeast, but doesn't provide much breakdown, the DAP gives you the nitrogen that you don't get from decomposing yeast. You have a lot more available nutrient with a grain ferment, than a sugar ferment so this works good. Cheap and simple.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by Lblamboy »

Ben wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:23 am DAP is cheap by the pound, and you need a tiny amount per ferment.

I am lazier about the yeast health these days... For nutrition I drop a little DAP, and a little of the yeast cake I don't need for ferment directly into the mash. The heat cycle of the mash is enough to kill the yeast, but doesn't provide much breakdown, the DAP gives you the nitrogen that you don't get from decomposing yeast. You have a lot more available nutrient with a grain ferment, than a sugar ferment so this works good. Cheap and simple.
I have generally done AG and I never really did anything more than a little DAP for good measure (if that) for those ferments. However, my son and I have started some cider, mead, and melomels very recently, and I also wanted to try a UJSSM for the first time in a decade, so we have been trying to really learn about nutrients for the first time!

For our UJSSM, between the recipe's cracked corn and then pitching some salvaged AG yeasties (along with cake/trub) acclimated with just a brief spin with Go-Ferm, that mash must have plenty of nutrients b/c it is officially off to the races!

For the meads and ciders, we've been doing Go-Ferm, Dap and Fermaid in a staggered plan using a calculator, and those ferments are going, just much more slowly and they are not nearly so spectacularly fun to watch as this UJSSM sugarhead! I'm looking forward to the next generations on that UJSSM, and getting to a sour mash with setback...I'm really curious to see how the generations smooth out with that!
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by MooseMan »

Just a quick mention about the cider.

I've made a LOT of cider over many years and the slower the ferment the more character you get.
So don't add anything at all to your cider ferments, just yeast, ideally one that has low alcohol tolerance and good flocculation.
I use Notty.

The complete opposite of adding nutrients, if I could find a way to easily rob cider of nitrogen part way through a ferment, I'd use it.
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Re: Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

Post by NormandieStill »

MooseMan wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:58 pm The complete opposite of adding nutrients, if I could find a way to easily rob cider of nitrogen part way through a ferment, I'd use it.
You need to practice sous-tirage. Take your apple juice and put it in a clear container with some headroom (clear isn't necessary but it'll make it easier to see). Now make sure it stays cold (below 10C seems to be good) and let the yeast go to work (traditionally using the natural yeast). This will never form a rolling, fizzing, ferment.

As the ferment progresses over the first week or two you'll start to get deposits on the bottom (defecation) and a brown, goopy cap will form on top (le chapeau brun). This cap contains a lot of free nitrogen bound up with pectins. Now you want to draw off the free liquid in the middle. You have just successfully reduced the yeast population and starved them of nitrogen. You can repeat this process to ensure that they remain in a low nitrogen environment. Keep an eye on the gravity and bottle when the ferment is nearly done to put a little natural fizz into your cider (cidre bouche).

If the above is a little vague it's because I lack hands on experience and a lot will depend on the varieties of apple used and the local environment including the weather.
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