Hey Haggy,
After playing with your thumper calculator I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze on this tall skinny thumper idea. I just won't get the pressures I want to justify the cost of the build.
What Two Thumpers Can Do
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Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
There are two types of people in this world.
1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
Bolverk
OK, it is your dime.
But here are the thumper calculations I just completed. Maybe you will change your mind.
And before this, to make the charge to the two thumpers, you need to do two stripping runs with the 8% wash, then take the low wines from both and do another strip to get the material to use to make up the 22% and 40% ABV thumper charges.
Temperatures seem to be high enough to bring out some of the esters for the enhanced flavor. And the thumpers do not fill up much, only during their heating up. You have to go deep into the run ( all 6.5 hours ) to get to the heavier esters.
haggy
P.S. I saw your continuous distillation idea. Cannot comment on that now, I will look at it.
OK, it is your dime.
But here are the thumper calculations I just completed. Maybe you will change your mind.
And before this, to make the charge to the two thumpers, you need to do two stripping runs with the 8% wash, then take the low wines from both and do another strip to get the material to use to make up the 22% and 40% ABV thumper charges.
Temperatures seem to be high enough to bring out some of the esters for the enhanced flavor. And the thumpers do not fill up much, only during their heating up. You have to go deep into the run ( all 6.5 hours ) to get to the heavier esters.
haggy
P.S. I saw your continuous distillation idea. Cannot comment on that now, I will look at it.
Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
Thanks Haggy, I appreciate you running this... this idea may not be as dead as I thought.
There are two types of people in this world.
1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
You can lite a wick under your doublein keg to get it close to hot then rake the coals back. Shoot them thangs if that what you lookin.
Good to see folks pushin know how but every now and again just light the wick and let it be. Like one ole boy said help you get your chi right
So I'm tole
Good to see folks pushin know how but every now and again just light the wick and let it be. Like one ole boy said help you get your chi right
So I'm tole
Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
Kareltje has sent me data for several runs that he made with two thumpers. This was good complete data where in addition to the ABV and amount made vs run time, he also measured the amount remaining in the thumpers at the end of the run. I had to modify slightly the calculation of the heat losses in each thumper to agree with the amount remaining data.
A typical run was a One and Done run with 10.3% ABV wash in the boiler and both thumpers. The boiler had a 14 Liter wash charge and the 10 liter thumpers about 2 liters wash each. The boiler power was adjusted to 520 Watts which fit the run data. The Watts used were less than the data because of heat losses with the gas burner system.
The updated calculations agreed with the ABV and amount distilled data,
The volume in both thumpers increased with run time. Calculation results of the volume remaining in the thumpers are close to the data after adjusting the heat loss calculations of both thumpers. Both thumpers started with about 2 liters and ended up with about the same volume, 4 liters and 4.2 liters.
The initial distillate ABV of the data was a little higher than expected / calculated. I presume that colder equipment and lines at the start gave extra passive reflux and raised the ABV.
This One and Done run also made a good amount of hearts, about 2 liters at 63% ABV. Several other runs with different input data were studied and gave similar results.
So, with this new data, I now have a more proven and more reliable double thumper calculator.
Thanks, Kareltje
Then I was trying different inputs and found something " very interesting ".
Instead of putting wash in the boiler, I tried 30 % ABV "low wines" in the boiler and wash in the thumpers.
The resulting distillate ABV was high ( 80% ) and very steady at this level for a long time, 5 hours. Something like we see in a reflux column run. Then the ABV gradually decreased. A lot of Hearts were made.
Here are details of this type of run. We will start with 14 gal of 30% ABV in the boiler and 2 gal of 10% wash in both thumpers. The boiler power will be steady at 2000 Watts.
Input Data
Results
You can see the steady distillate ABV and its gradual drop and very steady cumulative product ABV over the entire run time.
Estimated Hearts made were about 4.6 gal at 74% ABV with Tails starting at about 40% ABV out the spout at 450 minutes run time from the start of the pot boiling.
The volume in the both thumpers rose initially from 2 gal up to 3.6 gal, then were steady ( almost flat ) for most of the run time. A Good Result also.
The liquid ABV in the last thumper has a gradual rise, then steady, then a gradual drop. This vaporizes to give the steady distillate ABV.
So, if you have two thumpers, give this concept a try and report on it. Maybe it is a very good way to run the two thumper setup. Much like a Spirit run in a pot still with two extra stages after the pot.
haggy
A typical run was a One and Done run with 10.3% ABV wash in the boiler and both thumpers. The boiler had a 14 Liter wash charge and the 10 liter thumpers about 2 liters wash each. The boiler power was adjusted to 520 Watts which fit the run data. The Watts used were less than the data because of heat losses with the gas burner system.
The updated calculations agreed with the ABV and amount distilled data,
The volume in both thumpers increased with run time. Calculation results of the volume remaining in the thumpers are close to the data after adjusting the heat loss calculations of both thumpers. Both thumpers started with about 2 liters and ended up with about the same volume, 4 liters and 4.2 liters.
The initial distillate ABV of the data was a little higher than expected / calculated. I presume that colder equipment and lines at the start gave extra passive reflux and raised the ABV.
This One and Done run also made a good amount of hearts, about 2 liters at 63% ABV. Several other runs with different input data were studied and gave similar results.
So, with this new data, I now have a more proven and more reliable double thumper calculator.
Thanks, Kareltje
Then I was trying different inputs and found something " very interesting ".
Instead of putting wash in the boiler, I tried 30 % ABV "low wines" in the boiler and wash in the thumpers.
The resulting distillate ABV was high ( 80% ) and very steady at this level for a long time, 5 hours. Something like we see in a reflux column run. Then the ABV gradually decreased. A lot of Hearts were made.
Here are details of this type of run. We will start with 14 gal of 30% ABV in the boiler and 2 gal of 10% wash in both thumpers. The boiler power will be steady at 2000 Watts.
Input Data
- image.png (11.87 KiB) Viewed 676 times
Estimated Hearts made were about 4.6 gal at 74% ABV with Tails starting at about 40% ABV out the spout at 450 minutes run time from the start of the pot boiling.
The volume in the both thumpers rose initially from 2 gal up to 3.6 gal, then were steady ( almost flat ) for most of the run time. A Good Result also.
The liquid ABV in the last thumper has a gradual rise, then steady, then a gradual drop. This vaporizes to give the steady distillate ABV.
So, if you have two thumpers, give this concept a try and report on it. Maybe it is a very good way to run the two thumper setup. Much like a Spirit run in a pot still with two extra stages after the pot.
haggy
Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
In a recent post, rubberduck71 reported on two runs he made with his two thumper still. Here is a link to that post : viewtopic.php?t=90521
Both runs had 25% abv in Thumper 1 and 40% abv in Thumper 2 and low initial charges. The July 3 run had an 8% abv wash in the pot, the July 24 run had the wash plus feints in the pot. The objective was to make a high distillate abv product and extend that abv for a long run time. Both runs did this well.
The reason this works is that both thumpers have small charges so incoming vapor when condensed will initially raise the liquid abvs and keep them high. The Thumper 2 liquid abv is high initially and stays high for a while then decreases slowly during the run. So the vapor abv out of Thumper 2 is high.
Here is my Excel Pot and Two Thumper simulation of the July 24 run. A 700 watt power value ( less than the actual setting ) fit the run distillate abv and rate data well. Thumper heat losses were 46% and 42%. When tails were seen, the pot power was increased to 1200 watts, then the abv dropped fast.
Input Data
Vapor and Thumper Distillate ABV
Thumper Volume and Distillate Gal
Pot and Thumpers Liquid ABV
So, this run by rubberduck71 proved the objective stated above. Go to the link to see details of the runs and the amount of hearts made in the runs.
Both runs had 25% abv in Thumper 1 and 40% abv in Thumper 2 and low initial charges. The July 3 run had an 8% abv wash in the pot, the July 24 run had the wash plus feints in the pot. The objective was to make a high distillate abv product and extend that abv for a long run time. Both runs did this well.
The reason this works is that both thumpers have small charges so incoming vapor when condensed will initially raise the liquid abvs and keep them high. The Thumper 2 liquid abv is high initially and stays high for a while then decreases slowly during the run. So the vapor abv out of Thumper 2 is high.
Here is my Excel Pot and Two Thumper simulation of the July 24 run. A 700 watt power value ( less than the actual setting ) fit the run distillate abv and rate data well. Thumper heat losses were 46% and 42%. When tails were seen, the pot power was increased to 1200 watts, then the abv dropped fast.
Input Data
- image.png (12.06 KiB) Viewed 587 times
Vapor and Thumper Distillate ABV
Thumper Volume and Distillate Gal
Pot and Thumpers Liquid ABV
So, this run by rubberduck71 proved the objective stated above. Go to the link to see details of the runs and the amount of hearts made in the runs.
Re: What Two Thumpers Can Do
Some ( well-known ? ) facts about thumpers are:
1. Thumpers that are WELL INSULATED:
Have less heat losses
Have more product vapor distillate - good
Have less liquid fill up of the thumper - good
Require less pot heating (gas) - good
And conversely,
Thumpers UNINSULATED have more heat loss, less product volume and more liquid fill. This could lead to more heat ( gas) that is needed to get a desired product rate.
2. Stills with Two Thumpers can do a One n Done Run using only Wash
Barrel strength hearts product ( 62.5% ABV or greater ) can be made in one run using > 9% abv wash in the boiler and in both thumpers.
I have seen these two facts demonstrated in several of Kareltje's previous two thumper runs and now in some recent two thumper runs. He used only a wash in the boiler and also in the two thumpers. He sent me this recent data for three different runs and agreed to me posting it.
His thumpers were well insulated and had low heat losses ( 25% to 30% ). I fit my two thumper calculation model to his data by varying the amount of heat loss in each thumper. Thumper 1 was lower heat loss than Thumper 2. He measured the volume in the thumpers after the run was completed and the ABV and amount of distillate product during the run. The model results agreed well with the data.
Details of a One n Done Run using Wash only
Here is an example of one of the three recent runs. The boiler had 14 liters of 12% abv TFFV wash and was run at about 510 watts heating. Both of the 10 liter thumpers had 3 liters charge of the 12% abv TFFV wash at the start of the run.
Here are the calculated and data abv results during the run:
Here are each thumpers volume and amount of the distillate and data during the run:
The volume of the thumpers did not increase too much after their initial heat up. Run time starts when the boiler starts boiling and sending vapor over to the first thumper to heat it up. Tails started at about 45% abv out the spout, 290 minutes run time. The thumpers each started at 3 liters volume and rose to about 4.8 and 5 liters volume at the end of the run ( 440 minutes ).
Also, a good amount of hearts, about 2.3 Liters at 70% abv (above barrel strength) was made. The alcohol yield of the hearts based on total alcohol charged was about 67%, a very good result.
There were also two other very similar runs, only the amount of wash in the thumpers was varied, 2L + 4L and 4L + 2L. The run results were very similar. They were also One n Done runs. My two thumper calculator using the same heat losses fit the abv and distillate amount of the other two runs just as well.
So, these three double thumper runs demonstrated the above thumper facts very well and helped confirm the validity of the two thumper calculations.
haggy
1. Thumpers that are WELL INSULATED:
Have less heat losses
Have more product vapor distillate - good
Have less liquid fill up of the thumper - good
Require less pot heating (gas) - good
And conversely,
Thumpers UNINSULATED have more heat loss, less product volume and more liquid fill. This could lead to more heat ( gas) that is needed to get a desired product rate.
2. Stills with Two Thumpers can do a One n Done Run using only Wash
Barrel strength hearts product ( 62.5% ABV or greater ) can be made in one run using > 9% abv wash in the boiler and in both thumpers.
I have seen these two facts demonstrated in several of Kareltje's previous two thumper runs and now in some recent two thumper runs. He used only a wash in the boiler and also in the two thumpers. He sent me this recent data for three different runs and agreed to me posting it.
His thumpers were well insulated and had low heat losses ( 25% to 30% ). I fit my two thumper calculation model to his data by varying the amount of heat loss in each thumper. Thumper 1 was lower heat loss than Thumper 2. He measured the volume in the thumpers after the run was completed and the ABV and amount of distillate product during the run. The model results agreed well with the data.
Details of a One n Done Run using Wash only
Here is an example of one of the three recent runs. The boiler had 14 liters of 12% abv TFFV wash and was run at about 510 watts heating. Both of the 10 liter thumpers had 3 liters charge of the 12% abv TFFV wash at the start of the run.
Here are the calculated and data abv results during the run:
Also, a good amount of hearts, about 2.3 Liters at 70% abv (above barrel strength) was made. The alcohol yield of the hearts based on total alcohol charged was about 67%, a very good result.
There were also two other very similar runs, only the amount of wash in the thumpers was varied, 2L + 4L and 4L + 2L. The run results were very similar. They were also One n Done runs. My two thumper calculator using the same heat losses fit the abv and distillate amount of the other two runs just as well.
So, these three double thumper runs demonstrated the above thumper facts very well and helped confirm the validity of the two thumper calculations.
haggy