Placement of mash transfer pump

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Stonecutter
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Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Stonecutter »

I’m going to be doing my first “large” batch mashing this St. Patrick’s Day. It’ll be in the fashion of a Single Pot Still Irish Whiskey .
24 gallon ferment. Off the grain
22 lbs. flaked Barley
24lbs. Malted Barley
5lbs. flaked Corn
US05 yeast
I’ll mash in the garage but my fermenter sits in the basement and rather than carry buckets up and down the stairs I’d like to use the Blichmann riptide pump to transfer from the garage down a set of stairs and into the fermenter.
First things first. I’m not even sure I’ll have the head pressure. Blichmann claims 7 GPM with 21’ of head pressure and as the mash tun is close to the stairs almost all fluid travel will be downhill, however it’ll be about a 40’ run.

My main question is pump placement. I think gravity will be my friend here and that the weight of the mash will be able to push most of the liquid down the stairs rather easily so my reasoning tells me to have that pump either midway between the mash tun and the fermenter. If not closer to the fermenter. What do you guys think?
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by juana_b »

As long as the pump is primed, you should be able to pump it UP 2 flights of stairs. 21' of head at 7 gpm is pretty good. Do they provide a pump curve graph?
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by greggn »

Stonecutter wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:10 am
I’ll mash in the garage but my fermenter sits in the basement and rather than carry buckets up and down the stairs I’d like to use the Blichmann riptide pump to transfer from the garage down a set of stairs and into the fermenter.

Is the pump even necessary ? If going from high to low perhaps all you need is to just start a siphon.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by juana_b »

Found it
riptide curve - Copy.PNG
at 18' of head it'll be about 1 gpm. at 6' head it'll be about 6 gpm.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Stonecutter »

Ya beat me to it Juana! It’ll be a 1/2” diameter hose
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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greggn wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:17 am

Is the pump even necessary ? If going from high to low perhaps all you need is to just start a siphon.
Yeah, I could definitely do that as well. I think I could use something to prop up the hose at the fermenter to make it work. I’ll try both. I got this fancy pump so I’m itching to try it out

Edit: I’ll put the pump near the fermenter and see how she goes :thumbup:
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by juana_b »

Stonecutter wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:59 am I’ll put the pump near the fermenter and see how she goes :thumbup:
Without seeing the liquid level of where it's pumping from, be careful not to run it dry. You'll be close to a 3 min transfer time if their curve isn't BS.
Edit: 50' of 1/2" pipe holds .5 gal of volume, according to that curve it'll take -5 seconds to move that.
Anytime you see generic competitor numbers, question the data.
Last edited by juana_b on Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Stonecutter »

Good point Juana. 3 minutes would be awesome, I’ll be happy if it works at all! I’m sure I’ll have to use a bucket for the last little bit of it but with a little luck o’ the Irish we should be able to save a few vertebrae.
I’ll have my cousins over. Identical Twin Brothers about as goofy as they come but between the three of us we should be able to bungle our way through the day.
One of us watch the pot, one watch the fermenter and the other can get the beer and pour the shots. :twisted:
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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Please tell me their names aren't Daryl.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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No Sir.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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juana_b wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 12:38 pm Please tell me their names aren't Daryl.
LOL! I miss the Bob Newhart show...
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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I knew I missing something. I’m too much of a young punk
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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skip to 2:30


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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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juana_b wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:11 pm
Haha!! Close. They’re a bit more put together than that. Just a bit though :lol:
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Since the mash will be flowing down to the basement, it will siphon downhill without a pump. I would use the pump at the mash ton and it will not only prime the siphon, it will likely push it faster than the mash would siphon on its own.

Head pressure charts are usually for pumping upward. Are you primarily asking about pumping the fermented mash back up to the garage to distill?
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by juana_b »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:03 pm Since the mash will be flowing down to the basement, it will siphon downhill without a pump. I would use the pump at the mash ton and it will not only prime the siphon, it will likely push it faster than the mash would siphon on its own.

Head pressure charts are usually for pumping upward.
+1
upward and for line losses, and your line loss will be insignificant next to an upward vertical push.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:03 pm Since the mash will be flowing down to the basement, it will siphon downhill without a pump. I would use the pump at the mash ton and it will not only prime the siphon, it will likely push it faster than the mash would siphon on its own.

Head pressure charts are usually for pumping upward. Are you primarily asking about pumping the fermented mash back up to the garage to distill?
Thanks for the response Salt. I really appreciate the input I’m not super familiar with pumps so it’s nice to get some solid suggestions.
To clear things up. I’m primarily asking about the best placement of pump from the mash tun in the garage to the fermenter downstairs. I distill on the same level as the fermenter so no worries there. :thumbup:
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Stonecutter wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:14 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:03 pm Since the mash will be flowing down to the basement, it will siphon downhill without a pump. I would use the pump at the mash ton and it will not only prime the siphon, it will likely push it faster than the mash would siphon on its own.

Head pressure charts are usually for pumping upward. Are you primarily asking about pumping the fermented mash back up to the garage to distill?
Thanks for the response Salt. I really appreciate the input I’m not super familiar with pumps so it’s nice to get some solid suggestions.
To clear things up. I’m primarily asking about the best placement of pump from the mash tun in the garage to the fermenter downstairs. I distill on the same level as the fermenter so no worries there. :thumbup:
Yeah these types of pumps are meant to push so I would absolutely put it close to the mash ton.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:03 pm Yeah these types of pumps are meant to push so I would absolutely put it close to the mash ton.
Awesome. I realize I could’ve asked the manufacturer but honestly I didn’t think about it till just now. It’ll be a little victory for me in my shed if everything works out and I’ll keep you all posted. Super stoked to try out this whiskey style.
Cheers Mates
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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Stonecutter wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:14 pm
To clear things up. I’m primarily asking about the best placement of pump from the mash tun in the garage to the fermenter downstairs.

Mash tun.
So, you're going to be transferring wort instead of a thick mash?
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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shadylane wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:01 pm Mash tun.
So, you're going to be transferring wort instead of a thick mash?
Yes Sir. False bottom with a pickup tube.
Fermenting off the grain and recycling the grains as best I can or feel the need to. I forgot to mention I’ll be using 3lbs of Rice hulls in my mash.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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Alright ladies, gents and what have yous.
The mash is a brewing about ready to try and transfer this gloop. The rice Hulls are holding up fairly well. I’m not sure if the HBS sold me flaked oat or flaked Barley. It’s damn viscous. Fingers crossed here. No BIAB just a screen. Dog help us if this shit don’t come out the pickup tube.
Got Corn Beef ages Cabbage on the stove and the “Quiet Man” on the tube
HAPPY ST. PATRICKS DAY!!! 🍀
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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Cheers!
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Stonecutter »

Well…. The whole plan is a flaming pile of dog shit on the carpet. I got good conversion but the pickup tube was completely useless. Lesson learned. Everything I read in the forum said to use a BIAB. I thought I could skirt the lessons learned by others. Nope

Anyway plan B in effect. Fermenting on the grain for the first time. Time to see what the conical can throw me in the 7th inning
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by Saltbush Bill »

That's the thing with this forum Stonecutter........many others have usually made the mistakes for us, before we even try, sometimes we still need to find out the hard way though.
On the other hand nothing ventured nothing gained, you can now be on the list of those who can advise NOT to do it that way....along with giving reasons why its not a good idea.
I also seem to remember once, a member saying he was going to build this wierd arse looking column thing with plates in it.............some said "WONT WORK"
He did it anyway.......out of that we ended up with hobby sized plated columns "the flute" , the rest is history, thank you Old Dog.
Moral of that one is "sometimes it pays to not listen and to find out for your self".
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by shadylane »

Stonecutter wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:37 pm
Anyway plan B in effect. Fermenting on the grain for the first time. Time to see what the conical can throw me in the 7th inning
One question.
Does the conical fermenter have a big enough lid you can dip it out. :lol:
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by still_stirrin »

Stonecutter, I lauter my bourbon. And I never said it was easy. As Shady has said many times, “never underestimate corn’s ability to f_ck things up”. Because of the oils and proteins in the corn, it will turn into a pastey mess.

My mash tuns are 10 gallon vertical Coleman coolers with a pickup grid of copper with longitudinal slots (not just holes) in the bottom. I have a stainless steel perforated grate above the pickup grid as well, so there should be a small “basin” for the wort to accumulate below the grist. Still, the fine dust from the mash will work its way below the grate and build up as I’m recirculating the wort to build the mash tun’s filter bed.

But the grains will still form a thick “goop”, as you’ve called it. And as I begin runoff to the fermenters, the grainbed becomes like a “yoghurt” consistency. As I runoff, I have to make thin knife slices down into the grainbed to allow the sparge water to rinse the grains deeper into the tun. I’ve learned through practice that this helps keep the liquor draining. The depth of your grainbed will make it easier to sparge if it’s not too deep.

And the runoff will have some of the fine grain “dust” as it drains. However, it would still be pump-able with a centrifugal pump. I use a magnetic-drive (March) pump with the output “throttled” so it doesn’t suck the grainbed down in the mash tun. It is a bit of a “balancing act” and a complete lauter does take a long time. From the pump, the wort runs through a tube-in-tube (Liebig) chiller so it is cool and ready to pitch immediately, which I do as I’m filling the fermenters. The ferment is often active even before the fermenter is full and I’m done with the sparge.

So, don’t fret your process. But as we’ve said, corn (and rye) will mess you up. So, you have to work diligently to get your liquor into the fermenter. Corn grist is thick like a pudding and the rye liquor is sticky like glue. So, when combined you get something like a “spongey brick”.

This could be why many brewers just resort to fermenting on-the-grain and leave the squeezing to post-fermentation. Indeed, I’m in the small minority of us here who lauter our mashes.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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shadylane wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:58 am
One question.
Does the conical fermenter have a big enough lid you can dip it out. :lol:
Not sure what you mean by dip it out? Was looking at the conical this morning. This has been and is going to continue be an interesting learning experience.
Going to make sure I get notes taken down for this one. Taking notes is something I definitely need to improve on

SS did a little searching all I could find was info regarding counterflow leibig style wort chillers but no pictures. Care to share or PM some images? I had every intention of recirculating and sparging. I’ve done so in the past with a different setup. I believe my perforated false bottom just isn’t designed for such a high unmalted grain bill.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

Post by juana_b »

https://a.co/d/i6kSUaB
Here's one style of counterflow tube in tube that's common in small water cooled refrigeration systems.
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Re: Placement of mash transfer pump

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still_stirrin wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:48 am From the pump, the wort runs through a tube-in-tube (Liebig) chiller so it is cool and ready to pitch immediately, which I do as I’m filling the fermenters. The ferment is often active even before the fermenter is full and I’m done with the sparge.

So, don’t fret your process.

ss
https://fhsteinbart.com/product/counter ... erconvolu/

Is this pretty much what you’re using? I like the idea. I might have to get me one of these things.
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