size of barrel matters question

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Tōtōchtin
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size of barrel matters question

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Hola,
Before I get to tired from spending money on this habit I thought it best to get some storage here before my funtickets dry up. I can get white oak barrels that are new, had wine, had whiskey then tequila. The used ones have been rebuilt with a medium toast. For my corn whiskeys I think 50 liters will work out. I plan on making more rum as I am near a sugarcane mill and planning on doing some trading to help offset this damn expensive hobby. I can get 200 lt barrels for about the the same price as a 20,50,100 lt container. I have read where wine producers use a barrel until they say the wood is dead it does impart any flavors, so I guess that will not work for my whiskey. I figure a small one at 100 lts might work storing my neutrals for gin or just for gin. Curious how it would be for rums.
My main concern if I buy a 200 lt because of the price, will slowly filling it full of rum effect the quality for the worse.
This is a link to what I have been looking at, there are a few wholesalers selling 200 lt barrels as is near me that I also want to check out. They get these from the tequila factories. I have emailed the factories but have not heard back.
I thank you for your time,
T
https://listado.mercadolibre.com.mx/bar ... e-blanco#D[A:barril%20de%20roble%20blanco]
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still_stirrin
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by still_stirrin »

Keep this in mind when choosing a cask for your spirits:

When the cask is not filled to capacity, the surface area of the cask exposed to the fill is greater than the volume of the spirit. This will cause the aging spirit to evaporate faster. And this won’t necessarily accelerate the aging process, only the shrinkage. As a result, your proof may go up, or down depending on the environmental conditions where you’re aging. But definitely, what you pull out of the cask will be less than what you put into it (likely quite significantly).

So, if you can’t fill a large cask in a timely manner, I’d advise choosing the smaller cask that you can fill sooner. And then, as your collection of aging products increases, you can select a larger vessel. Remember, it will take a LOT of fermentation to produce enough spirits to fill a 200 liter cask.

Just because you can get a large cask at nearly the same investment as a smaller one doesn’t mean you should. You should plan the storage vessel size based upon your intended production rate. Otherwise, shrinkage will disappoint you.
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by Stonecutter »

The first thing that stands out is the 50L barrel. To be direct, that is fairly large for a hobbyist who, from what I remember, hasn’t even fired up a still yet.
Again that’s a straight forward comment and take it how you want but like SS pointed out; as “funtickets” become scarce and/or the sand runs faster in the hour glass, the last thing you want to do is lose good Hooch in a unfilled barrel or damage a barrel by not filling it in a timely manner.
Just my two cents. I don’t know how dedicated you are to running your still.

I think 5 gallons 19 Liters is more than enough for a hobby Distiller to start off with ymmv. I started with a gallon cask planning on making the jump to 5 gallons, but all things being relative it’s a lot of work.
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Tōtōchtin
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I generally ask questions before I leap. True I am still waiting for about 35 tri-clamps and ferrules so I can not start building my still, but I see that as irrelevant to the other things I need. I have 4 kegs, hydrometers, alcometers, copper pipe and fitting, plastic barrels, controller, all with no still. I just keep plugging away at what I can do and control.
I did believe the 200l was a bit much but I was leaning towards a 20 l for my whiskey and the 120 liter for my rum. My thinking on that that once the alcohol evaporated enough it would reach a saturation point it would slow down dramatically. I would think the amount of money I used to make that rum the evaporation loss costs would be less then buying 2 50l barrels. My time loss well that's my time and loss. I think I can get in 20 runs in 8-10 weeks. What would be a guesstimate on liters loss due to a half filled barrel?
My plan is to store these in glass with white oak until I can find a recipe I really like. I don't know how the hell I can do that as I think all the new rum I have tried tastes like shit. I am hoping there are degrees of shit that I might be able to differentiate one crappy taste to another. Once I figure out a plan from the comparisons I'll start filling up a barrel and hope it turns out well enough I can trade it. Good rum in Mexico are like redheads, hard to find a good one with the taste you can appreciate.
I have 2 60l, a 120l, and 3 200l hdpe tambos that I purchased without a still also. In about 3 weeks I will be getting 120l of cane juice I want to start my first ever ferment with. I figure since I can store it I can do that and another with panela/molasses. This way I hope it can help me decide which way I lean towards. I was hoping to cut my teeth on Shady's sugar wash but its hard just to sit on my hands while I have this chance to do something with all this cane around me.
Again I appreciate your thoughts and your time,
T
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by shadylane »

Instead of wooden barrels, gather up an assortment of sealable SS containers.
My preference is Cornelious kegs, with a combination of charred and toasted white oak sticks.
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:05 pm I was hoping to cut my teeth on Shady's sugar wash
I think your taking the right path there, a neutralish sugar wash is a great place to start. I learned on a reflux still using sugar washes and I think its much easier to learn cuts on them than a wash made from an AG. The cuts and differences are more pronounced IMO.
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by jonnys_spirit »

If you start with cane juice fresh from the field I bet dollars to donuts it ferments spontaneously from the wild yeast. Love a good flavorful cachaca or agricole.

Storage is an issue to consider for ferment, low wines, feints, foreshots, and backset/dunder plus of course aging and drinking stock.

Cheers!
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Tōtōchtin
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by Tōtōchtin »

200 l tambo.jpg
100 l tambo.jpg
Another barrel question
Is it possible to ferment in a 59 l keg with a 10" openings w/2'' drain (I can use it also to store my rum low wines) or wide plastic barrels with lids?

If plastic, lids that seal tight or would a loosely threaded lid work .Also if plastic short and squat or tall as in the photos?

So many questions looking for the right path...
T
Again thank you for your time.

no clue why photos are sideways
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TwoSheds
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by TwoSheds »

Good news/bad news.

Good news, (food safe) plastic is good to ferment in and unless you expect to have a long time between your ferment and distillation they don't need to seal very well. You'll find plenty of people here who ferment with just a blanket on top of their fermenter and loads of professional distilleries who open-ferment with nothing on top!

Bad news, it's not great for storage of higher ABV. Even low wines may start to break down PE and other plastics over time. Sure, you can buy hard liquor in plastic bottles, but hell, they say you shouldn't reuse plastic even if it's just for water!

Stainless containers like corney kegs are handy and durable, and not usually to expensive secondhand. Glass carboys are usually pretty cheap too, ask your brewing friends.

Smaller jars are handy too. Make friends with someone who works in a restaurant to save you pickle jars for the occasional fifth of product. Bartenders even better for glass liquor jugs.

I waited until I had a 5 gallon carboy full of good stuff before I ordered a 5 gallon barrel to transfer it into. Better than having a barrel sitting around drying out!
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by NZChris »

You are casting your net too wide.

Narrow your research down to single products and their/your ageing/storage needs and then look for suitable containers. Rum isn't Whiskey, isn't gin, etc..

If you have found a barrel that might be useful, research how to use it to your advantage.

I've got nothing aging in barrels, but have a large variety of products aging on wood in glass. This suits me as I'm a hobby distiller and I like diversity and I like blending products for the drinks cabinet.
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Tōtōchtin
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Well my real question concern is do you think it is possible to ferment in a keg with only a 10" opening. I don't have a clue if that is too narrow of an opening for inspecting the mash/wash, stirring to get aeriated ect. The kegs are about 20% more in costs per 60l.
Would it be easier to go with 120l or 200l to ferment in that would make the double use of kegs not valid? Does having a container twice the height inhibit degassing co2?
T
5 gallon glass containers down here in Mexico are around $100 bucks. We all use bottled water here, you would thing there would be 1000's of them laying around.
30l keg now is $35
60l is about $50 plus 25 for a 10" ferrule and cap.
That 100l plastic tank above 40
a 120l and 200l are the same around 60
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by subbrew »

10 inch would work fine I would think. I have a 9 gallon plastic fermenter with a 6 inch opening which I used for multiple UJSSM generations. But now I mostly use a 55 gal/ about 200 l food grade barrel That way I can do 30 to 40 gallon ferments.

As for tall and skinny. There is some research showing yeast behave differently at the bottom than the top of such vessels. Perhaps fermenting cleaner at the bottom. Some brewers are experimenting with fermenting under pressure but I have not seen anything to suggest it makes a significant difference. For the sizes you are discussing it will not cause any problems.

wow $100 for a glass carboy. Many of the carboys you can buy new in the US for about $50 come from Mexico.
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by NZChris »

I don't have any problems fermenting in containers with 7" openings.

I only have one 5 gallon glass container, it was given to me and it sits empty except for when I'm desperately short of space and have no other choice. Breaking it filled with anything would be a disaster, but especially Low Wines. I would never age anything in it.
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by lest1 »

NZChris wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:37 pm You are casting your net too wide.

Narrow your research down to single products and their/your ageing/storage needs and then look for suitable containers. Rum isn't Whiskey, isn't gin, etc..

If you have found a barrel that might be useful, research how to use it to your advantage.

I've got nothing aging in barrels, but have a large variety of products aging on wood in glass. This suits me as I'm a hobby distiller and I like diversity and I like blending products for the drinks cabinet.
Could you give a bit more of a detailed description on how you store and age

Im keen to know your setup and thoughts thanks
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Re: size of barrel matters question

Post by NZChris »

lest1 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:10 am Could you give a bit more of a detailed description on how you store and age
2/3 full to allow for some O2 in the headspace.
Don't bang the cork in so tight that it can't breathe.
When sampling, or smelling, blow across the jar to let some more O2 into the headspace.

Use wood of your choice. That's a whole subject of its own and is well covered in the forum.

Draw off one bottle at a time, leaving the rest to continue aging. Don't remove the wood until the jar is empty.
If it is woody and astringent, it needs more time on the wood. Blow across the jar to let some more O2 into the headspace and put it away to mellow.

Aim to be aging for years, not months.
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