Long Liebig for stripping setup

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NZChris
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

You don't have to build your Leibig the same as most of the pics you see on the net and in books. Most of them don't have the outlet in the optimal place and are drawn so that gravity kinks the outlet hose as soon as it gets filled with hot water.

I have posted a pic of one of mine at least once. The water outlet comes out of the highest point in the Liebig and is curled around the vapor inlet so that it points down to accept the drain hose and eliminate kinking.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by MooseMan »

shadylane wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:33 pm
NZChris wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:27 pm
Air will always accumulate in the top of the jacket unless you do something about it. I put the outlet hose tail at the top of the jacket so that the jacket is always filled to the top with water.
If the outlet is placed underneath the jacket, the water will only fill the jacket to where it overflows into the outlet.
That's true.
But if the condenser is placed at an angle, jacket will stay full of water due to gravity.
Even with the outlet pointing down, there will be a small bubble of air, but not enough to matter.
Yes shady, your image shows what I'm seeing in my head, thank you.
But what I was getting at is, because I've got the outlet side being restricted by the valve, the jacket HAS to fill because the water can't get out as quick as it can get in.

Although I fully agree, better to have it cold side for every other possible reason.
I'll try different angles based on all of this feedback in any case.
All this discussion is literally brain food for me so I thank you all.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by shadylane »

NZChris wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:55 pm You don't have to build your Leibig the same as most of the pics you see on the net and in books. Most of them don't have the outlet in the optimal place and are drawn so that gravity kinks the outlet hose as soon as it gets filled with hot water.

:thumbup: Having the hose hanging down so it doesn't kink when hot.

I figure is more important that the location of the valve.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

MooseMan wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:00 pm But what I was getting at is, because I've got the outlet side being restricted by the valve, the jacket HAS to fill because the water can't get out as quick as it can get in.
Flawed logic, I'm sorry.

Air is lighter than water, so it will fill the top end above the lowest point of the outlet. Draw yourself a diagram of what you think will happen.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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shadylane wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:10 pm
NZChris wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:55 pm You don't have to build your Leibig the same as most of the pics you see on the net and in books. Most of them don't have the outlet in the optimal place and are drawn so that gravity kinks the outlet hose as soon as it gets filled with hot water.

:thumbup: Having the hose hanging down so it doesn't kink when hot.

I figure is more important that the location of the valve.
I have a Leibig that is over thirty years old and the top end has always leaked and been noisy because of the siphon. If it goes quiet, there is a problem. The last time that happened, Her Indoors had arrived home and parked the truck on the outlet hose.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by shadylane »

MooseMan wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:00 pm
But what I was getting at is, because I've got the outlet side being restricted by the valve, the jacket HAS to fill because the water can't get out as quick as it can get in.
This is where you're mistaken.
Water doesn't compress, water volume in equals water volume out.
There's a small advantage to pressure, any air trapped in the jacket will compress and get smaller.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

shadylane wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:44 pm
MooseMan wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:00 pm
But what I was getting at is, because I've got the outlet side being restricted by the valve, the jacket HAS to fill because the water can't get out as quick as it can get in.
This is where you're mistaken.
Water doesn't compress, water volume in equals water volume out.
There's a small advantage to pressure, any air trapped in the jacket will compress and get smaller.
It will be under pressure. It will still take up the same volume in the jacket.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by MooseMan »

Thanks for the clarification gents, this is why I enjoy using this forum, I can have a giggle, look at pretty pictures of well made things, and even have a technical discussion with people who understand a concept more deeply than I do and walk away better educated.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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The drawing someone posted assumes that no more air will enter the system. I've run two Leibigs with clear water jackets and can assure you that it will.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by Saltbush Bill »

If the Liebig is long enough to start with its more than going to compensate for an air bubble or two........we aint trying to fly to the moon here folks.
Keeping the hoses from kinking, having a good means to regulate the water flow, and having some support under the condenser to take some weight so that there isn't a nasty accident mid run some time in the future are all further up the list of priorities in my opinion.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

Airspace at the top is more important if you are trying to build very small and efficient, however someone suggested running close to horizontal. If you did that, there would be a lot of air in it. Holding a level against it at the height where the water is entering the tail should give you an idea of how much.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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NZChris wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:35 am Airspace at the top is more important if you are trying to build very small and efficient, however someone suggested running close to horizontal. If you did that, there would be a lot of air in it. Holding a level against it at the height where the water is entering the tail should give you an idea of how much.
That was probably me NZChris . My liebig has a spiral wound shell to ensure even coolant flow .
When I say near horizontal , I’m meaning perhaps a 10° fall .
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:43 am That was probably me NZChris . My liebig has a spiral wound shell to ensure even coolant flow .
I have done that in one with a clear jacket. Because the spiral doesn't completely fill the gap so that it is impossible for the water to do anything but circulate within the spiral, it doesn't give a toss about the spiral and just leaks through the tiny gap as though the spiral isn't there. Hot water is lighter than cold water and the difference in density is enough to overcome the influence from my spiral unless the flow rate is far higher than I need.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by shadylane »

I've wasted a fair amount of time experimenting with liebigs.
All the mods I've tried on the water jacket side made no measurable difference.

The vapor side of the condenser is a different story.
A cold finger is good, anything without a cooling water source is bad.

Wire spirals, copper mesh and such is a detriment.
They absorb heat on the hot end and conduct it to the cold end.
Basically, they thermally short out the condenser.

Ya don't believe me.
Start by marking the spot on your condenser where the temp gradient goes from hot to cold.
Then start sticking pieces of copper wire or mesh inside the vapor tube.
See what direction the hot to cool spot on the jacket goes.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

I don't think experimenting is a waste of time. It sorts out fact from speculation.

I painted a stripe of thermochromic pigment onto some of mine. Doing that dispelled some myths I've read here.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Splitting hairs is good. Shaving the whole head is orders of magnitude better.

If you're concerned about a small air bubble in the liebig add some length if possible AND do the other things mentioned. Adding length will probably be the best way to fix the issue while worrying about eliminating the small air bubble probably won't.

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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:30 pm Splitting hairs is good. Shaving the whole head is orders of magnitude better.

If you're concerned about a small air bubble in the liebig add some length if possible AND do the other things mentioned. Adding length will probably be the best way to fix the issue while worrying about eliminating the small air bubble probably won't.

Cheers,
jonny
The bubble thing came up because someone thought putting the flow control valve on the outlet side of the Leibig was a good idea? Where do you recommend putting it?
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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shadylane wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:27 pm I've wasted a fair amount of time experimenting with liebigs.
All the mods I've tried on the water jacket side made no measurable difference.

The vapor side of the condenser is a different story.
A cold finger is good, anything without a cooling water source is bad.

Wire spirals, copper mesh and such is a detriment.
They absorb heat on the hot end and conduct it to the cold end.
Basically, they thermally short out the condenser.

Ya don't believe me.
Start by marking the spot on your condenser where the temp gradient goes from hot to cold.
Then start sticking pieces of copper wire or mesh inside the vapor tube.
See what direction the hot to cool spot on the jacket goes.
This thread is generating some awesome discussion I love it!

Shady something you said above has triggered a thought.
When you say "Anything without a cooling water source is bad" are your saying that anything put into the vapour path is bad, unless that thing is itself actively cooled?

So for example the short length of twisted copper blade I've put into the vapour in end of my Liebig, is likely to be detrimental due to the fact that it's acting as a thermal sink inside the vapour path, and is actually helping to transfer the heat down along the condenser? (Regardless of whether it is having a positive effect by agitating the vapour flow)

So, if someone were to take a thick, solid copper flat with plenty of mass, or even better a cross sectional piece, and solder it to the outer jacket so that it has a direct contact with the actively cooled tube and would sink the heat to that tube pretty effectively, would this not have a similar level of effectiveness to a shotgun?
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by shadylane »

MooseMan wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:40 am
When you say "Anything without a cooling water source is bad" are your saying that anything put into the vapour path is bad, unless that thing is itself actively cooled?
That's what I'm saying.
If it's not actively cooled, all its doing is occupying space.
To get around the obstruction, vapor has to flow farther and faster.
Faster vapor speed means there's less time for the vapor to condense.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by MooseMan »

That's made me think some more Shady.

I know that Graham condensers exist, but why has no one built a simple cold finger that can be pushed up into the end of a Liebig, or for that matter any open ended condenser, to increase effectiveness?

It would be really easy to knock up a tube over tube cold finger, essentially a closed ended Liebig with in and out lines on the same end but the water having to travel the full length to get back out.

Or am I just being dumb and not looking for the right thing?
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by NZChris »

It's probably easier to build a slightly longer Leibig.

You could also use a heat pipe to wick away at lot of heat if you were bored enough to invent something and try it.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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NZChris wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:18 am It's probably easier to build a slightly longer Leibig.

You could also use a heat pipe to wick away at lot of heat if you were bored enough to invent something and try it.
Your are totally right Chris of course, just go bigger and keep it simple haha

I just have a curious mind and like to think that the occasional great idea can come from discussing and experimenting with changes to established concepts.

I really enjoyed messing around with aluminium heatsinks on the non water condenser I made for my gin still, but I had no idea how well it would work or, at that scale, if at all.
When it did work well enough to run with I was in all honesty pretty shocked! :lol:

As far as I'm aware no one has done air/passive cooling the way I did it with both fixed and removable sinks, probably because it looks batshit weird and it's a hassle to make, but if it ever inspires someone else to do a better, more efficient and properised job of it with a similar design I'd be super happy and feel like the time I spent on it was worthwhile.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by squigglefunk »

no issues with a tiny bit of airspace at the top at all

as been mentioned this is not rocket science - your condenser should work great.

I used my 3/4" over 1/2" 4ft long liebig last night, stripped about 8 gallons of low wines in 4ish hours, using a 55 gallon barrel of water and had no issues with running out of cooling capacity,

the water was pretty warm by the end but I set it up so the pump will circulate the water in a circle all day and it will be cold enough to run again tonight
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by MooseMan »

Just thought I'd post an update as I'm stripping with the long leibig today.

I've got it at approx 6-8° from horizontal, the minimum amount of water flow through the jacket with just a really gentle huffing noise from the output end but not actually huffing, surging or spitting etc.

I'm stripping at max input power and outputting 12l/Hr which is considerably faster than I was able to do with the Dimroth!
1682071244595929170146148371049.jpg
Good solid stream at just above blood temp
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by Yummyrum »

Happy days Mooseman :thumbup:

12l/h is a good place to be . :clap:

I am always a little concerned though when I see a wad of scrubber mesh in a Liebig . Sure it stabilises huffing but , what are you running ?

I have a mate on another forum that was stripping a mash and it puked , plugged and shit almost happened except he realised something was wrong before it blew .He had a wad of mesh in the end of his long Liebig too .

Not running a mash ….. go for it .
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by Wildcats »

MooseMan wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:02 am Just thought I'd post an update as I'm stripping with the long leibig today.

I've got it at approx 6-8° from horizontal, the minimum amount of water flow through the jacket with just a really gentle huffing noise from the output end but not actually huffing, surging or spitting etc.

I'm stripping at max input power and outputting 12l/Hr which is considerably faster than I was able to do with the Dimroth!

1682071244595929170146148371049.jpg
Good solid stream at just above blood temp
Looks good man.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Moose those figures look good......did some stripping my self tonight.....averaged 10 to 12 LPH...the entire run........probaby could have pushed harder if need be.
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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Yummyrum wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:00 am Happy days Mooseman :thumbup:

12l/h is a good place to be . :clap:

I am always a little concerned though when I see a wad of scrubber mesh in a Liebig . Sure it stabilises huffing but , what are you running ?

I have a mate on another forum that was stripping a mash and it puked , plugged and shit almost happened except he realised something was wrong before it blew .He had a wad of mesh in the end of his long Liebig too .

Not running a mash ….. go for it .
Stripping some of last year's unwanted Apple and Rhubarb wine.

I get you with the scrubber, it's just a tiny bit wound around a bit of copper wire to stop it falling out, to make a product stream director.
No Raccoons around here! :D

I never have any solids in the boiler, too scared of burning.

I'm very happy with this kind of output speed for stripping!
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:54 am Moose those figures look good......did some stripping my self tonight.....averaged 10 to 12 LPH...the entire run........probaby could have pushed harder if need be.
Yeah thanks, I collected right down to 10%ABV too, as it went so quick.
It's so much less of a chore when it runs this fast!

I've even had time after cleaning up, to make a little condenser for a friend who I've gotten hooked on the idea of making his own bourbon! :clap:
16820902442185195705216812878236.jpg
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Re: Long Liebig for stripping setup

Post by Yummyrum »

MooseMan wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:18 am
I've even had time after cleaning up, to make a little condenser for a friend who I've gotten hooked on the idea of making his own bourbon! :clap:

16820902442185195705216812878236.jpg
Oh you’ve been bitten bad Mooseman :ebiggrin:
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