Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

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Pyruvate
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Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Pyruvate »

Air still, run with a copper mesh 'boiling chip' in the pot, and as much copper as I can get in the basket, with a controller to keep takeoff In my spirit run around 50 mls every 10 minutes, collected in 40 ml fractions.

All barley/malt, fermented on grain. My last batch I got right at 1 gallon of low wines after stripping, right at 35% ABV. This gave me about 400 - 440 ml of hearts, coming off from just over 80% ABV, down to just over 70%.

Early tails are clearly nasty. It's a nastiness that sticks to your tongue and nose In a vaguely nauseating way, at least for me. So once I thought I was into tails I collected another couple 40 ml fractions to be sure, and then turned the still up and collected the remainder of the tails in a larger jar, down to about 30% ABV coming off the still.

But here's my question. I thought I noticed the smell changing as the tails were coming off, and took a taste, and it wasn't bad. It seems like maybe there's a period in early tails when it's got that real nastiness, but then maybe that can clear up later and the deeper tails might have some interesting pleasant stuff? They did have a bit of a thicker oily feel to them, so there's clearly fusel oils in there too.

My hearts are going to be about 75% ABV once I've combined the fractions, so I'll have to dilute those down anyway. Would it make sense to keep collecting fractions through the tails, get through that nasty stuff, and use some of those pleasant and interesting later tails fractions instead of water to proof my heart's down? Are the fusel oils a problem if I do that?
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Yes! lol...

In general I would recommend collecting in 20-30 jars of fractions and then when you do your "cuts" make some test blends to see what you like.

Consider collecting more fractions the first time(s) you run a recipe until you're more comfortable with where you feel like you will enjoy your cuts or your blend of fractions.

You don't have to use a whole jar of late tails or late heads either. You might prefer 1/4 jar from a particular fraction...

And of course, your tastes may change on different days or you may find that aging for a year on charred oak smoothes out some heads and integrates some tails differently than you would expect..

You might also like to only cut a middle middle hearts blend for drinking white and then making a feints cut - perhaps discarding early heads - for recycling of some feints into next spirit run.

Best luck and still safe!
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by still_stirrin »

Blending is as much of an art as is brewing. Likewise, making “good” cuts is dependent on your taste differentiation and how you distinguish “good” from “nasty”.

Of course, at the root of it all is “experience”. So, you’ve got to pay your penance. And PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. No book, or forum will give you the skills … you’ve got to do it yourself. Or quit.

Now, stop whining and get busy.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Pyruvate wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:53 pm
But here's my question. I thought I noticed the smell changing as the tails were coming off, and took a taste, and it wasn't bad. It seems like maybe there's a period in early tails when it's got that real nastiness, but then maybe that can clear up later and the deeper tails might have some interesting pleasant stuff? They did have a bit of a thicker oily feel to them, so there's clearly fusel oils in there too.
This has been my experience. On my whiskies, once tails have started, several times I have discovered a single jar of tails I don't like so I omit it. The following jars are fine, and never get worse, just gradually weaker. I have gotten into the habit of including almost all tails since they do a much better job than water of proofing my overall newmake down to barrel proof or white drinking strength.

Maintaining tight control of mashes and ferments can make your job of making cuts easier.
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Avalir
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Avalir »

How deep did you distill into low wines when you stripped? I'll generally distill low wines until it collectively is around 25%. Tails are where you'll find a lot of good whiskey flavors - distill the low wines deep enough and you'll have a ton of flavor carry over into the hearts too.
When I fist began this hobby, I didn't distill low wines that deep and I'll tell you this from experience, if you don't at the very least distill until low wines are 30% or better yet lower, you'll find that tails are instantly gross like how you described when you reach them in the spirit run and your hearts will be missing out on a ton of good flavors too.
With low wines at 25% I'll also consistently hit at or about 125 proof after making cuts from the spirit run which is perfect for aging and it also means I don't need to dilute the flavor more with water.
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NZChris
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by NZChris »

How far you strip will make a difference to your experience. I strip grains to get Low Wines below 27%. Using those ABVs, I haven't noticed anything worth keeping from the later jars, but I choose my cuts differently to some here, only tasting prospective blends, instead of tasting individual jars and trying to guess what they will do for the heart cut. My choice of heart cut is usually so close to my desired barrel strength that I don't have to dilute with anything before aging.

The flavors in my heads & tails are not lost, they get re-run with some fresh wash when there is enough in the feints collection to be worth running. These runs are either drunk white so that I don't steal my best products out of the aging vessels before they are ready, or used for blending after they have been aged. The Feints Rum I'm sampling tonight was made from all manner of leftovers from a series of rum ferments and distillations, plus some held back fresh wash, about four years ago and is surprisingly good now.

Keep good notes of what you do and how it turns out. They are a very important part of your distilling library.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by shadylane »

Best way to figure out how deep into the tails is to do an "extended" stripping run.
Before you start, get a shit load of jars and lids.
Run the still until there's nothing but whiskey flavored sweet water, then run it even longer. :lol:
Use a paper towel to soak up any oils floating on the lowines.
Then decide which tails jars you don't like and leave them out before redistilling.

My 2cents worth on a spirit run.
Don't get into a rush to start blending jars together.
Wait awhile and see what changes with time.
While your sampling, you're also learning.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by NZChris »

I'm sure I've seen old posts here recommending felt in the collection funnel to trap oils. I've never bothered to try it, but I always have oils floating in my stripping receiver and in my tails jars, so I should try it for myself.

The first jar that has visible oil floating on it never gets included in my hearts cut, not because of the oils, that's just a coincidence, but usually because the flavors in the previous jar meant that it was excluded too.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Avalir »

The floating oils in the collection jars is a tell tale sign for me too in terms of flavor, I'll generally use the first jar will oils as I don't think it has enough nasties to cut, but my nose is also good at picking up odors off the still and when I can detect tails approaching I tend to collect 4oz or so at a time, if I were collecting full pints I'm sure that first jar with oils would be on the gross side.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by NZChris »

Including oily jars is highly likely to give you a misty end product when proofed after aging. If that doesn't bother you, it's not a problem. If it does, it is a problem.
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Single Malt Yinzer
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

When you go exploring tails to find rum oils...

Image

Yes, there's tons of good stuff in the tails. Though for most things in the tails it takes some time and chemistry to produce a great product. It's a little scary but worth it.
Siva283
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Siva283 »

I tend to use alot of tails. Enough to where sometimes the product gets slightly cloudy. It doesnt bother me I like that flavor. I do %100 corn alot and I like the warm buttery corn flavor you can get by adding more tails.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Pyruvate wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:53 pm get through that nasty stuff, and use some of those pleasant and interesting later tails fractions instead of water to proof my heart's down? Are the fusel oils a problem if I do that?
The short answer is yes, get past the really tails stuff to what is know as "Sweet Water", and you can use it to cut your product to barrel proof.
Which jars before the sweet water at the tails end of the run you choose to add or not add is your choice.
FWIW "Sweet Water" is exactly that ..it tastes like sweet water with a little of the grain flavors left.....at least that's how my taste buds perceive it.
Ive tried the method a few times ....Ive done it with Rum and with UJSSM......both experiments are now heading into their 3rd or 4th year.
Can I taste a difference over the same diluted with plain old rain water from my tank ?
All I can say is that I "think" the sweet water ones have a slightly more complex flavour and somehow a little more mouth feel.
Another year might tell me more.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Avalir »

I'll use oily, I won't use cloudy. If you let the cloudy sit, you'll see clumps of nasties start to form, and that's where I draw the line.

Also I'm hoping that with everything I've said, I wasn't misunderstanding the question. For the most part, in my humble opinion the late hearts and early tails are the same thing. Tails I would call anything that came off at the end of the run that didn't make the cut.
Are there nice desirable flavors present in the tails: yes. Are the tails (what I call the tails) good: no.
So back to stripping deeper - by stripping deeper you accumulate more of the taily essence, both good and bad. Fortunately, the good stuff hiding there likes to smear into the hearts/stuff worth keeping, whereas the nasties don't tend to show up until the actual tails cut. So if you don't strip deep, your hearts will lack these desirable tail qualities since they can't smear as far, and when you finally notice the tails, they'll have more of the nasties traits.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Avalir »

I just thought to add this.. I've read about people doing it but I haven't bothered, though I think it's a good and valid idea. But a handful of people will, after a spirit run, separate the nasty tails fractions to reflux with early heads and will only keep the more pleasant tails and closer to the sweetwater to be saved as feints. When I do a spirit run, once I'm comfortably past where I believe my tails cut will be I crank the heat up to high to strip off the remainder, so any fractions I might try to collect would probably be too smeared for that to be an effective method for me personally. But I have contemplated attempting it. This doesn't help much for a spirit run, but food for thought for a feint run or for collecting feints to rerun in your next spirit run.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Personally, I don’t care to extend my sprit run time by collecting so deep into the tails. Once it stinks like feet, I’m out. I crank up the power and the rest of the run becomes feints stripping.

One little anecdote. I frequently recycle all my tails feints into subsequent runs. I find this builds flavor over time as I’m concentrating some of the good tails every time I do this. When I’m working to fill a barrel, I find my last sprit runs have more flavor than the first.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by kimbodious »

Yes. I keep running the spirit run slowly through and past tails still collecting in jars. The nasty component of tails is surprisingly small in volume and reasonably easy to cut. I use a litre or so of the sweet water to proof down the final blend and believe it contributes towards a creamy mouthfeel.
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Pyruvate
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by Pyruvate »

Thank you everybody for the comments and suggestions.

I'm starting stripping runs today on my next batch, which is an experiment with 100% Munich malt. This might or might not be a good idea, we'll see.

But when I get to my spirit run I'm going to try to keep taking fractions deep into the tails, and see what happens out there.
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Re: Is there good stuff deep in the tails?

Post by cmac62 »

I did the stripping run on my first peeted single malt this last weekend. After reading to the above I probably stopped early. From 5 gals of 10% wash I ended up with almost 2 gals of 35% LW. I sure hope I didn't miss all the peet in the late tails and sweet water. 🤞
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