ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

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Harley
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ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

Hi guys,

The ultimate question here is: How does changing the ABV of low wines in your boiler affect the running of the still and the final product?

1. How and why does it affect boiler temperature?
2. How and why does it affect the power input?
3. How and why does it affect efficiency?
4. How and why does it affect column flooding?
5. How and why does it affect the final distillate?
6. What low wine ABV is recommended for making neutral spirit?

If there's any other questions that I should be asking then please add them. Thanks in advance for the insights!
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by NormandieStill »

The answers to all of those questions can be found via a Google search of the forum.

Boiler temp is just physics!

Personally I strip to ~30% and then top up the low wines with water to help wash out the tails.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Sporacle »

Low abv won't let me hold my plates loaded as long as I want....
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

NormandieStill wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:16 pm Personally I strip to ~30% and then top up the low wines with water to help wash out the tails.
Sporacle wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:51 pm Low abv won't let me hold my plates loaded as long as I want....
Hi guys, thanks for the input.

Normandie, why does lowering the ABV wash out the tails in a column distillation? Aren't you going to start pulling off high concentrations of tails anyway as they separate in the column?

Sporacle, so lowering the ABV will moderate the about of vapour travelling up the column - I suppose this helps the stability? Otherwise small changes in energy would result in large fluctuations in output?
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by NormandieStill »

Harley wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:52 am Normandie, why does lowering the ABV wash out the tails in a column distillation? Aren't you going to start pulling off high concentrations of tails anyway as they separate in the column?
The tails tend to concentrate in water (they're often hydrophilic compounds as I understand it), which means that while they will come over, it's not until late in the run. By giving them more water to play in, you hold them back in the boiler for longer.

I've never tried it, as I get a decent yield of neutral from my current process, but I did think about doing a final stripping run before the reflux run. So Strip all your wash, then put the low wines in the boiler and add water. Now strip again. This should help clean up the low wines some before your spirit run. It was what I imagined doing for a pot still neutral, but then I built a reflux column.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

Hi guys,

I'm still battling with this in my mind. I've drawn a sketch with my reasoning of why the higher ABV is better for column distillation, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong!!

Can anyone help?!

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Low wines ABV sketch2.JPG
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by shadylane »

Harley wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm Hi guys,

The ultimate question here is: How does changing the ABV of low wines in your boiler affect the running of the still and the final product?
Wrong question.
Try asking. How does changing the ABV of low wines effect the character of the low wines and there for the final product.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

All I can think of it that it'll have a lower boil temperature, more volatile with equivalent energy input, and higher boil-off ABV...
Last edited by Harley on Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

shadylane wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:11 pm
Harley wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm Hi guys,

The ultimate question here is: How does changing the ABV of low wines in your boiler affect the running of the still and the final product?
Wrong question.
Try asking. How does changing the ABV of low wines effect the character of the low wines and there for the final product.
Okay, so how does it?
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Start with the simple stuff , which really doesn't even involve the still.
A 40% boiler charge is about what you would expect to end up with after stripping a neutral wash......some people might go lower......but on average 40% would be about it. In that case you have stripped and removed a lot of the water and other garbage that you didnt want from the wash.
In the case of the 20% boiler charge you have done the same , then you have diluted those low wines from a round 40% down to 20% using fresh water.
The extra water helps to keep the tails in the boiler, Ive seen it said that "the water acts as a filter" or "gives the tails a place to hide".
From my own experience of trying to get neutrals as neutral as I can I think the lower ABV choice works the best.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by shadylane »

Harley wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:29 pm
shadylane wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:11 pm
Harley wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm Hi guys,

The ultimate question here is: How does changing the ABV of low wines in your boiler affect the running of the still and the final product?
Wrong question.
Try asking. How does changing the ABV of low wines effect the character of the low wines and there for the final product.
Okay, so how does it?
I've got some questions of my own about the low-wines.
How did you get to 20% and 40% :?:
Did you run deep enough into the tails to have 20% or was it originally 40% that was then watered down.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

Thanks Saltbush. I'm happy to accept the conventional wisdom, but it doesn't make sense to me. I also don't know why the water would hold onto the tails. Been sifting through so may threads to understand why!
My method is to strip through a column, then I get ~55%ABV low wines, dilute them with tap water to 25% and then redistil.
Tried an experiment whereby I distilled a 25%ABV low wine and then a 55%ABV one (yes, yes, safety, I know...) and I can say that the 25% one is much cleaner.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

shadylane wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:40 pm
Harley wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:29 pm
shadylane wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:11 pm
Harley wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm Hi guys,

The ultimate question here is: How does changing the ABV of low wines in your boiler affect the running of the still and the final product?
Wrong question.
Try asking. How does changing the ABV of low wines effect the character of the low wines and there for the final product.
Okay, so how does it?
I've got some questions of my own about the low-wines.
How did you get to 20% and 40% :?:
Did you run deep enough into the tails to have 20% or was it originally 40% that was then watered down.
Strip with a column to get 55%ABV and then watered down.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Renhoekk »

Harley wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:43 pm I'm happy to accept the conventional wisdom, but it doesn't make sense to me. I also don't know why the water would hold onto the tails.
Ethanol is a good solvent for many organic compounds, some of which can contribute to off-flavors in the distillate. By diluting the boiler charge with water, you decrease the solvent power of ethanol, reducing the amount of these compounds that it can carry over into the distillate. Fusel oils in particular will start to “drop out” of solution at lower ABVs.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

Renhoekk wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:53 am
Harley wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:43 pm I'm happy to accept the conventional wisdom, but it doesn't make sense to me. I also don't know why the water would hold onto the tails.
Ethanol is a good solvent for many organic compounds, some of which can contribute to off-flavors in the distillate. By diluting the boiler charge with water, you decrease the solvent power of ethanol, reducing the amount of these compounds that it can carry over into the distillate. Fusel oils in particular will start to “drop out” of solution at lower ABVs.
Very interesting Renhoekk! Thank you :D

So in summary I suppose we can say that diluting your boiler charge ABV% is more about preventing organic compounds carrying across into your final product; rather than that you get more heads/tails in your hearts.

Furthermore, as Normandie says, lower boiler charge ABV% will help to keep the tails in the boiler. Regarding the fusel oils that "drop out", these have a boiling point of ~130C, so they'll stay behind in the boiler.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by zed255 »

Remember as well it is not always about a compounds BP, but often wether it has an affinity for water and how strong that affinity is. Tails can come out early, well before their individual boiling points are reached, because they have an attraction to water and will basically 'follow' as the water vaporizes. Give the mixture more water and more of the tails will stay in the boiler longer.

The converse can be true too, causing lower BP compounds to come out later than expected where they have a strong affinity for water.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

zed255 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:47 am Remember as well it is not always about a compounds BP, but often wether it has an affinity for water and how strong that affinity is.
Thanks very much Zed - This explains what people mean when they say the tails gets left behind.

Had to look up affinity: the degree to which a substance tends to combine with another.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Harley »

Hey guys, since it's on topic, I just found this thread when researching affinity in water. It's pretty relevant to boiler charges and also goes into hydroseperation - which isn't a very inconvenient additional step since we need to dilute anyway.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19169&start=12
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by shadylane »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:31 pm
The extra water helps to keep the tails in the boiler, Ive seen it said that "the water acts as a filter" or "gives the tails a place to hide".
From my own experience of trying to get neutrals as neutral as I can I think the lower ABV choice works the best.
I hear Ya Salty.

On every distillation alcohol boils off first and the tails want to stay in the boiler.
I figure if I dilute the low-wines 50/50 with water there's now only half the percentage of tails in the pot. :lol:

Often I'll do a single stripping run, then dilute the low-wines for a packed column run.
The extra water keeps the elements submerged.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:31 pm Start with the simple stuff , which really doesn't even involve the still.
A 40% boiler charge is about what you would expect to end up with after stripping a neutral wash......some people might go lower......but on average 40% would be about it. In that case you have stripped and removed a lot of the water and other garbage that you didnt want from the wash.
In the case of the 20% boiler charge you have done the same , then you have diluted those low wines from a round 40% down to 20% using fresh water.
The extra water helps to keep the tails in the boiler, Ive seen it said that "the water acts as a filter" or "gives the tails a place to hide".
From my own experience of trying to get neutrals as neutral as I can I think the lower ABV choice works the best.
Bill you (Or another of the masters) may hopefully be able to clarify my mind on something.

I've done lots of reading on the use of water to dilute low wines, for cleaning up taste, getting tails to bind to the water etc.
I've also read a fair bit about adding bicarb/sodium carbonate to get more usable product.

My brain is consistently going to the same conclusion over and over, that the chemistry going on here is strongly and possibly even solely pH driven.

I fully understand that the tails/water bond is not a reaction rather in interaction, but has anyone done any work on what final pH range gives the very best results?

Would the water hold more tails at pH5? Or would it work much better at pH10?
Could we be missing out on a simple, reliable and repeatable set of conditions by not knowing this?

The consensus seems to be that a pH in the area of pH9 is desirable when adding sodium to feints etc. but again, would it work better at higher pH?
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by zed255 »

Spend some time stillin'.

There are a lot of things you could do to possibly improve your spirit, and many more ways to screw it up. Messing with pH and / or adding things to your runs can often lead to questions like 'my booze is blue, how to fix' or ' I did process x and my product tastes bad'. Keeping things simple results in way more success. Don't be greedy, just make your cuts.

Experience will do more to improve your product than anything else. Go make a wash, mash or must and get stillin'.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by still_stirrin »

zed255 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:15 am… Experience will do more to improve your product than anything else. Go make a wash, mash or must and get stillin'.
:clap: :clap: Bravo!

So many times new hobbyists try to find the answer in these pages when the best answer can be found in their still shack. I guess Youtube and the Discovery channel has made us all too reliant on media sources instead of our own resources.

Sure, there is so much fantastic advice here, indeed the world’s best, but “just do it” is the best teacher. However, I will add my caveat to include, “be safe, responsible, and discrete”.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by MooseMan »

I've not tried any of these things I'm speaking about yet guys and not really intending to, I'm just asking if there's any work been done on pH and it's effect on cuts/results.

I dilute my low wines with RO water at pH neutral for spirit runs and it's working well, I've not really paid attention to pH of the total up to this point.

But I have an enquiring mind and can't help returning to the pH thing and thinking there's a sweet spot.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by Tōtōchtin »

This article might give you a little motivation to test your idea.
https://byo.com/article/sorting-the-fac ... o-mash-ph/
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

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Tōtōchtin wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:34 am This article might give you a little motivation to test your idea.
https://byo.com/article/sorting-the-fac ... o-mash-ph/
Thanks for the link Toto

I've done lots of beer AG brewing and although I know that pH can have an effect on the ferment, I just know that the grains will not only get me into the correct range but will buffer as needed so I have never worried about it and never had a problem.

But I'm talking about altering the pH of stripped low wines in order to maximize distillation efficacy.
If that is just as simple as adding clean neutral water with no measurement, fine.
But do we know what the best terminal pH is? Or why?
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by NormandieStill »

MooseMan wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:17 am I've not tried any of these things I'm speaking about yet guys and not really intending to, I'm just asking if there's any work been done on pH and it's effect on cuts/results.

I dilute my low wines with RO water at pH neutral for spirit runs and it's working well, I've not really paid attention to pH of the total up to this point.

But I have an enquiring mind and can't help returning to the pH thing and thinking there's a sweet spot.
I've not done a side-by-side because I really don't have the time, but anecdotally, my last two neutral runs I treated the low wines with washing soda and I feel that the heads cut is significantly smaller that it was without treatment. I've been adding water to the low wines before running since my first refluxed neutral and combined with the CCVM the tails just don't seem to make it out of the boiler.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

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MooseMan wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:29 am The consensus seems to be that a pH in the area of pH9 is desirable when adding sodium to feints etc. but again, would it work better at higher pH?
That consensus seems to have slipped right by me. If you want to know how accurate it is, try it out.

I don't, and wont, use bicarb. I borrowed an idea from H. H. Cousins and have been using slaked lime to get to pHs around 6.8-7.5 to pretreat my nastiest collections of feints before doing All Feints runs. I figure that if judicious use of Calcium hydroxide can clean up my nastiest of nasties, it should work well for Low wines.

A few weeks ago I did a feints cleanup of my shed at the end of a Sugar Shine run. Instead of collecting tails, I shut down at the first hint of cardboard, then shot the boiler with every jar of heads, tails and foreshots I could find, including a couple of bottles from other home distillers that were never going to get any better, or drunk. Ran it until it was nasty.
Added the heads and adjusted the pH to 6.8 with slaked lime over a few days.
Nine days later the pH was 6.8 and wasn't changing. It smelled ok and the salts had precipitated out, so I racked off a good sized sample and proofed myself some. It was quite nice straight and with Coke. It's over a month later and I still haven't gotten around to doing the spirit run on it. Sniffing it, I suspect I could get a healthy heart cut out of it using a pot still, (a trick I have done before). It would be a better test of the idea than putting it though my Bokakob, but I want some high proof neutral.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

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NZChris wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:07 pm
MooseMan wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:29 am The consensus seems to be that a pH in the area of pH9 is desirable when adding sodium to feints etc. but again, would it work better at higher pH?
That consensus seems to have slipped right by me. If you want to know how accurate it is, try it out.

I don't, and wont, use bicarb. I borrowed an idea from H. H. Cousins and have been using slaked lime to get to pHs around 6.8-7.5 to pretreat my nastiest collections of feints before doing All Feints runs. I figure that if judicious use of Calcium hydroxide can clean up my nastiest of nasties, it should work well for Low wines.

A few weeks ago I did a feints cleanup of my shed at the end of a Sugar Shine run. Instead of collecting tails, I shut down at the first hint of cardboard, then shot the boiler with every jar of heads, tails and foreshots I could find, including a couple of bottles from other home distillers that were never going to get any better, or drunk. Ran it until it was nasty.
Added the heads and adjusted the pH to 6.8 with slaked lime over a few days.
Nine days later the pH was 6.8 and wasn't changing. It smelled ok and the salts had precipitated out, so I racked off a good sized sample and proofed myself some. It was quite nice straight and with Coke. It's over a month later and I still haven't gotten around to doing the spirit run on it. Sniffing it, I suspect I could get a healthy heart cut out of it using a pot still, (a trick I have done before). It would be a better test of the idea than putting it though my Bokakob, but I want some high proof neutral.
I used the word consensus incorrectly, sorry.
During my searching, that pH range came up a few times so I wanted to mention it.

So, what I'm trying to understand is in fact just what you are explaining, your use of slaked lime is essentially doing the same job as would any other alkaline base, and that is raising the pH to a point where things chemically bind/unbind, is it not?

Why did you aim at pH6.8 specifically Chris?
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

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MooseMan wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:55 am So, what I'm trying to understand is in fact just what you are explaining, your use of slaked lime is essentially doing the same job as would any other alkaline base, and that is raising the pH to a point where things chemically bind/unbind, is it not?
Wrong. Slaked lime makes calcium salts, which is what H. H. Cousins was using. I don't know what you're making.
MooseMan wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:55 am Why did you aim at pH6.8 specifically Chris?
Because I didn't want to go over 7. No science behind it, and I have successfully used 7.5.
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Re: ABV of low wines in your boiler (neutral spirit production)

Post by shadylane »

MooseMan wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:17 am I've not tried any of these things I'm speaking about yet guys and not really intending to, I'm just asking if there's any work been done on pH and it's effect on cuts/results.

I can't say wither adjusting the pH of low-wines before redistilling helps or not.
The jury is still out on that question.
I have noticed the pH of the fermentation makes a difference.
Low-wines from a wash that struggled along, @ 3.5pH is more fiery than a 4.5pH
That means more alcohol is lost to the heads cut.
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