New modula column build

[Royalwulf]

I am building a modula column still. I read the page "Calculations for a Reflux Still"
The page said:
"Understanding the flowrate of distillate you are collecting, you can determine the reflux ratio that you are getting from your cooling coils etc. Once you know this, you can work out the HETP for your packing, and thus the number of "theoretical plates" your still has. This will determine the maximum purity that you can achieve "
Can someone give me more information or send me a link to more info on this?
I know how to measure distillate flow rate, but given that how do I determine reflux ratio, HETP of my packing (rather than theoretical), number of "theoretical plates" and maximum purity?

[Wildcats]

The search function is your best bet. It'll give you all kinds of information on the question you have. Personally I wouldn't worry to much about all the reflux ratio and hetp. Just lean how to run the still and make cuts. Keep a ferment going and keep running and gain some hands on experience. It'll make you some great booze and you'll learn so much in the process. Reading will only get you so far... Hands on is the best teacher. Have fun and stay safe.

[Wildcats]

Let's see that build process. We love pictures.

[Yummyrum]

Reflux ratio and HETP are not things you need to know to have your still work , how ever it is good to have an understanding of what they are so you know how your still works .
Although I have measured my reflux ratio once or twice in ten years just for curiosity , I couldn’t tell you what it is while running my still . It just doesn’t matter .

Basically , to measure reflux ratio , you have to be able to measure the full amount of product first . The easiest way to do that is to simply put the still into Pot still mode and collect everything that is coming up the riser.
In a CM still , you just stop water flow to the Deflagmator so all vapour goes past .
In an LM still , you open the takeoff valve wide open so there is no reflux returning .
In a CCVM , you remove the reflux condenser and cap the top .
A VM still is tricky because by its nature , you can’t collect 100% .So you need to switch the VM head fir a Pot still head .

Anyway the point being , what you are trying to determine , is how much total condensed liquid would the still have at a certain power before you take a percentage of that as collected product .
For example , if @2kw , you were able to collect 4 litres an hour (total from the Pot still test) and you were taking of product at say 500mls an hour , then 3500mls must be returning as reflux .
So your reflux ratio would be 3500:500 or 7:1
Remember that the more reflux you allow to return back through the packing , the more interaction it will have with the upcoming vapour and therefore , the purity will be higher . The more you collect , the less reflux , and the lower the purity .

AS far as HEPT goes, there are ways to work it out , but again , it's all theoretical. Understanding that the taller you can make your packed section , and using the best Packing material ( lowest HETP)you can afford will give you the highest purity.

At the end of the day , just look at what others use here . You'll see for a 2" reflux still , most use Scrubbers or Copper Mesh in a column that is around 1 metre tall . Those with 3" reflux stills will be using the same and possibly scoria rocks or marbles and the Packed section will be around 1.5metres tall . Those using a 4" Reflux still will mostly be using Scoria or some other structured packing , however some ( me included ) still use scrubbers , and the Packed column will be around 2 metres tall .

And of course , there are folk richer than me that use SPP (Spiral Prismatic Packing ) regardless of column diameter . But realise that in all cases the
height seems to be proportional to the diameter , the happy spot being around 20:1

Get the tallest section you can ( but remember there is not much gain going beyond 20:1) , fill it with whatever packing material is available or affordable .Run the bastard , and see what ABV comes out . If it's close to 96% , consider yourself a champ .
The compromise with a reflux still is always time verses purity . The faster you run it , the lower the AVB .
If you are happy with it dripping out @ 95.5 % for 16 hours then well done .
But you might find that with it coming off at 1 litre an hour @ 95% still makes a damn clean spirit and only takes you 6 hours .

If you're not happy with Scrubbers , then start saving and get some SPP . Personally , I,ve never bothered .

viewtopic.php?t=83079

[BoilerMaker]

Edit - Off topic question for wildcats, moved to a PM...

[Royalwulf]

Thanks wildcat, i am interested in the theory as well as the practice.

Thanks yummyrum for the detailed answer. I realise hands on is the best teacher, I am waiting for parts from China to finish my build.
I also realise it doesn't matter knowing these things but it is part of distilling i like.
I love data and experiementing with "what if" i try different things, i know it is theory.

When i get the still built I will experiment.
I like to know the theory as well
The post by haggy is interesting stuff

cheers,
John

[Wildcats]

Edit - Off topic question for wildcats, moved to a PM...

Stupid pm

[30xs]

Edit - Off topic question for wildcats, moved to a PM...

Stupid pm

I’ll apologize in advance if the skin is too thin, but stupid post.

I don’t usually look a post counts, but figured maybe that was what the above was about. I sometimes spend hours reading through the forum, nuggets can be found everywhere. Looking at counts you have been here months and I years and you’ve beyond doubled my count with little to no benefit to the reading material contained in this forum. Three posts in this thread alone that were of no benefit to this OP, and the rest of us basically have to read around. My apologies to the rest of the forum for voicing out negatively.

Now for the original poster to keep my post from being totally useless. I am not sure what size column you plan to run, but Yummy’s guidance was spot on. Reading the forum there are a few that are doing 4” neutral columns but 3” (maybe even 2”) for the beginner. I will explain my reasoning.

First off a 4” column is going to require either a 50-60 amp, or two 30 amp, breakers running in the neighborhood of 9k watts, iirc, to get the reflux ratio you would be looking for.

Secondly the larger column is going to hold for alcohol in suspension. That means a larger boiler, more alcohol, needed to have new evaporation happening to keep up with takeoff.

Lastly why I say 3” is not knowing your fermenting background running a 4” on a 26-30 gallon still is going to require a lot of wash to process the first batch. That first batch, although may be satisfactory, has a 99.95% chance of not being your best product. That is unless after figuring out how much work it is it becomes your last.

As Yummy said HETP and RR knowledge and full understanding are not required to put a good drop in the jar. I do second the suggestion of trying lava rock. Sizing to column size is important. I know Salt Must Flow and Otis have some discussion in a post on sizing it. Search cat litter scoop and lava rock in the search engine and it should bring it up.

Good luck with your journey.

[Wildcats]

Who cares about post count. I just like to interact with the community. And I like to welcome new member in . And sometimes I feel I have a bit to add to the conversation. . Personally I feel running the equipment and getting hands on are the greatest teacher.

[drmiller100]

As always yummyrum is right on. Theory numbers for your still can be calculated once it works

I suggest a different start. What size column and what kind of packing? From there you can guess wattage. And really max wattage is a function of diameter for most packing.

Next choose max purity desired.
I believe given enough column height most packing can go from 10 percent beer to 95 percent product. Marbles will do it in 36 inches. Other packing could be more. Some less.

Maximum efficiency is always going to be about 50 percent reflux for 10 % beer to 95% product. It is the nature of a reflux pot still. Also start highee percent beer things go a lot faster.

None of my advice has anything to do with flavor or aroma. I don't know how to do that.

[Royalwulf]

Thank you for your reply 30xs.
I didn't post this question for suggestions on what to build.
I thought the calculations might be easy as the "Calculations for a Reflux Still" page said:
"Understanding the flowrate of distillate you are collecting, you can determine the reflux ratio that you are getting from your cooling coils etc. Once you know this, you can work out the HETP for your packing, and thus the number of "theoretical plates" your still has. This will determine the maximum purity that you can achieve "
I was wrong as YummyRum indicated.

I had already decided on a 3" column initially packed with stainless steel scrubbers and/or copper mesh as that is what i have already, i am still sorting out element watt sizes. I will experiment once my parts arrive.

[drmiller100]

Thank you for your reply 30xs.
I didn't post this question for suggestions on what to build.
I thought the calculations might be easy as the "Calculations for a Reflux Still" page said:
"Understanding the flowrate of distillate you are collecting, you can determine the reflux ratio that you are getting from your cooling coils etc. Once you know this, you can work out the HETP for your packing, and thus the number of "theoretical plates" your still has. This will determine the maximum purity that you can achieve "
I was wrong as YummyRum indicated.

I had already decided on a 3" column initially packed with stainless steel scrubbers and/or copper mesh as that is what i have already, i am still sorting out element watt sizes. I will experiment once my parts arrive.

Would you like suggestions?

[Royalwulf]

always open to suggestions, just pointing out i was seeking them when i posted this

[drmiller100]

You might try 2000-2400 watts with your 3 inch.
You might try 36 to 45 inches of packing

[Royalwulf]

Cheers drmiller