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Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
by Sp33dSnake
I know I am getting ahead of myself (havent used a still yet), but I have been reading material on this site. One of the things I have read is that cool, running water surrounding the worm is preferable to ice, as you will typically get a better flavor.
I have an idea about the size and length of copper coil I want to use, but I was thinking about how to keep the coil cool. Then, I thought about Maxim, Vickers, and the Browning 1919 from WW1. All used a water jacket to keep the barrel cooled and not rise above the boilng point of water.
Why not apply the same idea to a condensor?
A simple, tightly wound copper coil surrounded by a water jacket. Even including plumbing for an inlet/outlet to circulate water from a reservoir to the jacket.
Perhaps made of SS or Copper. It doesnt need to be particulary thick, just watertight.
If this has been discussed, I beg your pardon. Just brainstorming.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:39 pm
by Salt Must Flow
A simple water cooling system can keep a barrel from reaching destructive temperatures. The cooling water cannot exceed 'boiling temp' because it is not pressurized so the water reservoir can only boil and just allow steam to escape. The only limiting factor to that cooling system will be the volume of water. If it runs out of water, the barrel cooling system will run dry, get red hot and self destruct.
With a product condenser, you want it to condense the vapor, but you also don't want the condensed product to exit too hot. With a gun's barrel, the water temp evidently isn't a consideration. Long, continuous fire will only cause the water to boil. As long as the system doesn't run out of water, the barrel will be cooled. With a product condenser, if the water gets too hot then the vapor will no longer be condensed and vapor will escape.
When it comes to distilling, you can use a simple water jacket (Liebig Condenser). Another type of product condenser is a Shotgun Condenser which has multiple vapor tubes running through it surrounded by water. Shotgun Condensers can be significantly shorter than Liebig Condensers because of the multiple tubes (higher surface area being cooled per linear inch of condenser).
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:49 pm
by Yummyrum
Do you mean like the Graham Condenser ?
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:22 pm
by Saltbush Bill
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
One of the things I have read is that cool, running water surrounding the worm is preferable to ice, as you will typically get a better flavor.
I don't know where you read that ,but as far as I am aware, temperature, running water or ice have no impact on flavour.
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
A simple, tightly wound copper coil surrounded by a water jacket.
If you did go that way the condenser will have to be vertical at all times or it won't work.
A liebig would be a better idea, it's still a jacketed condenser, but can be run on any downward sloping angle to obtain the desired collection hight and location.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:45 pm
by shadylane
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
I have an idea about the size and length of copper coil I want to use, but I was thinking about how to keep the coil cool. Then, I thought about Maxim, Vickers, and the Browning 1919 from WW1. All used a water jacket to keep the barrel cooled and not rise above the boilng point of water.
"and not rise above the boilng point of water"
Water boils at 212'f that's good enough to keep an automatic weapons barrel from getting red hot.
The problem is alcohol vapor has a boiling point lower than water.
Evaporative cooling can be used, folks have wrapped a copper tube with wet rags, and it's worked.
But not very good.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:53 pm
by shadylane
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
I know I am getting ahead of myself (havent used a still yet), but I have been reading material on this site. One of the things I have read is that cool, running water surrounding the worm is preferable to ice, as you will typically get a better flavor.
Flavor isn't the reason for using running water vs ice for condenser water.
There're other more practical reasons.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:54 pm
by Salt Must Flow
There's a VERY BIG difference between keeping the barrel of a machine gun from melting down in comparison to keeping the exiting vapor of a still condensing and exiting at a relatively cool temp.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:07 pm
by Sp33dSnake
Yummyrum wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:49 pm
Do you mean like the Graham Condenser ?
IMG_8670.jpeg
Honestly, that's what I thought in my head when I started thinking about it, lol. (But I thought I would need a larger water jacket than that, tbh). Just substitute a machine gun barrel for a copper coil, water jacket with an inlet/outlet you can pump cool water to and fro, and you have a condenser.
I thought I read that on here about running water and flavor, but can't find it right now. If I was wrong, I'll be the first to own up to it.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:35 pm
by shadylane
It all boils down to physics. No pun intended.
Theirs folks here that can give the formulas to figure it out.
But basically, cool flowing water is what's needed to keep a condenser happy.
A tub with a worn in it will need additions of cool water, just not as constant.
The cooler water will fall to the bottom of the tub, but ice stays on top instead and shock cools the vapor as soon as it hits the condenser.
Ice can be added to cooling water, but it gets expensive.
That and "depending on the rig" it's possible to have problems with huffing.
Not a major problem, but worms tend to huff and puff sometimes.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:48 pm
by shadylane
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:07 pm
I thought I read that on here about running water and flavor, but can't find it right now. If I was wrong, I'll be the first to own up to it.
I apologize.
There ain't no need to own up.
Your asking questions and looking for answers.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:03 pm
by Yummyrum
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:07 pm
Yummyrum wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:49 pm
Do you mean like the Graham Condenser ?
IMG_8670.jpeg
Honestly, that's what I thought in my head when I started thinking about it, lol. (But I thought I would need a larger water jacket than that, tbh). Just substitute a machine gun barrel for a copper coil, water jacket with an inlet/outlet you can pump cool water to and fro, and you have a condenser.
As a general rule , it takes about twice the volume of water to adequately condense a volume of wash . So say you were stripping 100litres of wash , it would take 200litres of water to remove the heat energy and condense the distillate .
Now, that 200litres could be just a big bucket with a worm in it or it could be pumped through a Liebig , a Shotgun or even your Graham condenser . At the end of the run , the water will be the same temp regardless of what sort of condenser you used .
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:42 am
by LWTCS
Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:22 pm
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
One of the things I have read is that cool, running water surrounding the worm is preferable to ice, as you will typically get a better flavor.
I don't know where you read that ,but as far as I am aware, temperature, running water or ice have no impact on flavour.
Sp33dSnake wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:16 pm
A simple, tightly wound copper coil surrounded by a water jacket.
If you did go that way the condenser will have to be vertical at all times or it won't work.
A liebig would be a better idea, it's still a jacketed condenser, but can be run on any downward sloping angle to obtain the desired collection hight and location.
I reckon its a correlation vs causation kinda thing Salty?
I've been asked about this before and have also heard that a well known brandy guy espouses the worm makes a better finished product.
The way I figure is that the worm in flake stand is simply a lesser technology that more often than not is undersized.
This lack of knockdown power forces the operator to run low and slow.
Or,,,,allowing for the expression of warm distillate allows some low boiling point constituents to vent off the discharge / vent off during collection and thus makes a ,,,,,"smoother" finished distillate.
Either way, I'm with you. The worm on its own accord has nothing to do with flavor.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 4:09 am
by Saltbush Bill
LWTCS wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:42 am
Or,,,,allowing for the expression of warm distillate allows some low boiling point constituents to vent off the discharge / vent off during collection and thus makes a ,,,,,"smoother" finished distillate.
I did consider that before commenting Larry....taken to extremes the combination of the two things might make a tiny difference I guess. How noticeable that difference would be is questionable.
Re: Condensor - Inspiration from WW1 water cooled machine guns
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 4:25 am
by Chucker
A coil in a bucket is really no different and is basically a simplified Graham condenser. I use one and am very happy with it. As for varying the angle to better direct collection point, I can do that just as easily with an extended arm or tube at the exit.
Mine is just 10’ of 3/8” soft copper coiled to fit in a piece of 3” ss tube with ferrules on each end. The tri clamp caps each have a ss bulkhead fitting welded thru with swagelok connection for inside and outside. A couple threaded fittings are welded top and bottom to the ss tube exterior to connect cooling flow through the shell.