Best yeast for a very grainy flavour?

[Lundail_34]

I really like a strong "grainy" taste on a whiskey. Like johnny walker rye for example, it almost tastes like chewing on a handful of wheat.
I am wondering if you guys know of a yeast that will really bring that out, because I wanna chase that taste.

Thanks in advance!

[still_stirrin]

I really like a strong "grainy" taste on a whiskey. Like johnny walker rye for example, it almost tastes like chewing on a handful of wheat.
I am wondering if you guys know of a yeast that will really bring that out, because I wanna chase that taste.

Thanks in advance!

I get a lot of “grain” or “bread” flavors in a baker’s yeast ferment. Yes, plain old baker’s yeast from the grocery store. You could try some exotic beer yeasts, like a Belgian ale yeast or even the Chico ale yeast. They’ll make a lot of good flavors in the beer. But more importantl is the grainbill, as that affects the flavors that develop in the beer. Also, how you mash the grains matters too. A highly fermentable mash schedule will reduce the grain flavors, whereas a beer mash with less fermentable mash schedule will retain some of the grain’s malt flavors.

But, when making a spirit, the distillation processes are ultimately more important to flavor development. I use the 1-1/2 distillation method if I really want to “punch up” the flavor in the spirit. Also, when stripping the distiller’s beer, be sure to collect down to 25%ABV at least to get all of the flavors often found in the “backend” of the run. A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

So, the key points to consider for flavor are: 1) Recipe, 2) Mash Process, 3) Fermentation Process (and that does include yeast selection), and finally 4) Distillation Processes (and that includes how you collect and make cuts).

In the end, yeast selection is really quite minuscule when considering the potential “flavor” contributions. I’d focus on the recipe and the processes associated with the mash, fermentation, and distillation.
ss

[Salt Must Flow]

A highly fermentable mash schedule will reduce the grain flavors, whereas a beer mash with less fermentable mash schedule will retain some of the grain’s malt flavors.

By "highly fermentable mash schedule", does that mean a higher potential % ABV?

[Ridgeback816]

I always find that second use barrels provide better grain flavor or cover up less grain flavor muted by all the great oak flavors
I have done the same grain bill with a first use vs 2nd use barrel and I overwhelmingly feel the 2nd use is a higher quality product

[Saltbush Bill]

I'll nominate Yellow Lable for grainy, if the right grains are used.

[bilgriss]

Most beer yeasts are selected to bring out certain nuance in the beer, typically things that will be described as maltiness, breadiness, or hoppiness. Probably selecting a yeast that lets the ingredients shine through rather than accentuate something is the right path for what you're looking for. I agree with Still Stirrin that bread yeast is a fine choice.

To bring out grain flavors, concentrate on a healthy fermentation that doesn't create other flavors. Then concentrate on cuts to select the flavors you are looking for in the distillation. If you like the spicy, wheaty rye notes you describe then select those from your product.

[Stags]

TLDR: bakers is fine but if you have the extra $$$ to spend playing with yeast strains is FUN

That said:

Agreed with most of the above. Other things matter more but yeast selection also matters imo. It’s like choosing what bbq sauce to coat ribs with- it’s not gonna change what you’ve already done in terms of smoking or oven cooking, how you rubbed it, trimmed it, etc. it just allows you to add a different accent. Yeast will not cover up a bad mash bill or mashing or distilling process, but it will allow you to accentuate certain things. For example, my Hornindal rum has zero fruit in any part of the process and yet it comes out with a beautiful subtle mango flavor.

A wheat ale yeast or a malty Scottish ale yeast would likely pass the grain flavor on nicely. I’ve been making UJSSM with WLP099 high gravity ale yeast and it tastes fine, nice and grainy, but with a delightful butterscotch note.

I would also tell you that I agree with SS, 1.5 distillation is great for flavor. I’ve experimented with 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3x. My experience has been with 1.5x from a 10-12% wash I get a 50-55% abv hearts which is what I would want to put into a jar anyways. If I do 2x I get a higher abv and I’m forced to dilute it down which is inherently bad for flavor

[Swedish Pride]

[/quote]
I get a lot of “grain” or “bread” flavors in a baker’s yeast ferment. Yes, plain old baker’s yeast from the grocery store. You could try some exotic beer yeasts, like a Belgian ale yeast or even the Chico ale yeast. They’ll make a lot of good flavors in the beer. But more importantl is the grainbill, as that affects the flavors that develop in the beer. Also, how you mash the grains matters too. A highly fermentable mash schedule will reduce the grain flavors, whereas a beer mash with less fermentable mash schedule will retain some of the grain’s malt flavors.

But, when making a spirit, the distillation processes are ultimately more important to flavor development. I use the 1-1/2 distillation method if I really want to “punch up” the flavor in the spirit. Also, when stripping the distiller’s beer, be sure to collect down to 25%ABV at least to get all of the flavors often found in the “backend” of the run. A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

So, the key points to consider for flavor are: 1) Recipe, 2) Mash Process, 3) Fermentation Process (and that does include yeast selection), and finally 4) Distillation Processes (and that includes how you collect and make cuts).

In the end, yeast selection is really quite minuscule when considering the potential “flavor” contributions. I’d focus on the recipe and the processes associated with the mash, fermentation, and distillation.
ss
[/quote]


Well, there is a nice nugget that I never came across before, thanks SS

[still_stirrin]

A highly fermentable mash schedule will reduce the grain flavors, whereas a beer mash with less fermentable mash schedule will retain some of the grain’s malt flavors.

By "highly fermentable mash schedule", does that mean a higher potential % ABV?

No. I mean if you mash at 145* opposed to 150*F. Not more “potential”. More fermentable.
ss

[Twisted Brick]

Lundall,

Yeast plays a smaller role than the other disciplines involved in distilling. Each individual grain's unique flavor shines the most when handled with care (mash/ferment/distillation/cuts) and given enough time to age properly.
.

No. I mean if you mash at 145* opposed to 150*F. Not more “potential”. More fermentable.
ss

Good point, ss. The difference in fermentability between brewer's and distiller's beer was one of the very first distilling principles I learned when transitioning from a brewing background. Also, that its not efficient to create unfermentable sugars that never get to become ethanol.

[Tōtōchtin]

I'll nominate Yellow Lable for grainy, if the right grains are used.

And what might those grains be?
Tōtō
A thumper with the mash would help increase the grain flavor and pull a lingering flavor that coats your mouth.

[Lundail_34]

The beer yeast really sounds promising thanks guys! Ive been using daddy yeast, I do all grain ferments, I never add sugar, and with my new still I built I can distill on grain. I am gonna do a big batch of high rye, thank you guys for the knowledge!!

[Renhoekk]

Whisky that hasn’t been matured for very long often has a grainy flavour. It takes a while for those flavours to mellow out and for the other barrel chemistry to happen.

Baker’s yeast is cheap, or use an M1 strain whisky yeast. Oak it for months not years and enjoy a grainy drop.

[Mr_Beer]

Question from a newbie

A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

would also tell you that I agree with SS, 1.5 distillation is great for flavor. I’ve experimented with 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3x.

What does the term 1.5 or 2.5 distillation refer to? A process, ratio of ingredients, ??

[Deplorable]

Question from a newbie

A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

would also tell you that I agree with SS, 1.5 distillation is great for flavor. I’ve experimented with 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3x.

What does the term 1.5 or 2.5 distillation refer to? A process, ratio of ingredients, ??

Half of the spirit run boiler charge is low wines, the other half is wash.

[Stags]

Question from a newbie

A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

would also tell you that I agree with SS, 1.5 distillation is great for flavor. I’ve experimented with 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3x.

What does the term 1.5 or 2.5 distillation refer to? A process, ratio of ingredients, ??

Half of the spirit run boiler charge is low wines, the other half is wash.

Said differently, running wash through a simple pot still is 1x distillation

Running wash through a still with a thumper attached is 1.5x distillation

If you have a 10 gallon simple pot, you could arrive at 1.5x by making 15 gallons of mash or wash, doing a ten gallon stripping run, and then combining the low wines with the remaining five gallons of wash to do a spirit run.

All that to say there’s a lot of ways to skin that cat.

[Deplorable]

Question from a newbie

A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

would also tell you that I agree with SS, 1.5 distillation is great for flavor. I’ve experimented with 1.5, 2, 2.5, and 3x.

What does the term 1.5 or 2.5 distillation refer to? A process, ratio of ingredients, ??

Half of the spirit run boiler charge is low wines, the other half is wash.

Said differently, running wash through a simple pot still is 1x distillation

Running wash through a still with a thumper attached is 1.5x distillation

If you have a 10 gallon simple pot, you could arrive at 1.5x by making 15 gallons of mash or wash, doing a ten gallon stripping run, and then combining the low wines with the remaining five gallons of wash to do a spirit run.

All that to say there’s a lot of ways to skin that cat.

Mr_Beer doesnt have a thumper.

[Stags]

Question from a newbie



What does the term 1.5 or 2.5 distillation refer to? A process, ratio of ingredients, ??

Half of the spirit run boiler charge is low wines, the other half is wash.

Said differently, running wash through a simple pot still is 1x distillation

Running wash through a still with a thumper attached is 1.5x distillation

If you have a 10 gallon simple pot, you could arrive at 1.5x by making 15 gallons of mash or wash, doing a ten gallon stripping run, and then combining the low wines with the remaining five gallons of wash to do a spirit run.

All that to say there’s a lot of ways to skin that cat.

Mr_Beer doesnt have a thumper.

Maybe Mr_Beer needs a thumper. Or two.

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks for the answer. Everyone is correct, I do not have a thumper.

Now to clarify for newbies like me...
1X is a pot still with low wines that have been 'striped' and then all are introduced to the spirit run.
1.5 is a pot still with 2/3rds of the mash that has been stripped plus 1/3 that has not been stripped all being used in the spirit run.
2.0 would be 1/2 of the mash that has been stripped plus 1/2 of the mash that has not been stripped all being used in the spirit run.

Selection of the 'mode' will result in different flavor outcomes.

The notion of this thread is that the 'grainy' flavor moves through and is more pronounced at the 1.5 level.

Did I catch the sense of the thread??

[NormandieStill]

I think 1x is just a single pot still run, so cuts on what should have been a stripping run.
2x is your normal strip + spirit protocol.

[Stags]

Thanks for the answer. Everyone is correct, I do not have a thumper.

Now to clarify for newbies like me...
1X is a pot still with low wines that have been 'striped' and then all are introduced to the spirit run.
1.5 is a pot still with 2/3rds of the mash that has been stripped plus 1/3 that has not been stripped all being used in the spirit run.
2.0 would be 1/2 of the mash that has been stripped plus 1/2 of the mash that has not been stripped all being used in the spirit run.

Selection of the 'mode' will result in different flavor outcomes.

The notion of this thread is that the 'grainy' flavor moves through and is more pronounced at the 1.5 level.

Did I catch the sense of the thread??

Wrong.

1x through the still = low wines or 1x distilled. Unless you go for a high gravity wash (pretty much universally not recommended) that’s not going to get you sufficient proof.
1.5x would be a 50/50 blend of low wines and wash
2x would be all low wines distilled a second time

[still_stirrin]

Question from a newbie: What does the term 1.5 or 2.5 distillation refer to? A process, ratio of ingredients, ??

In general, it refers to the number of distillations the spirit run’s boiler charge has been run through.

For example, for the 1-1/2 distillation when using a potstill (assumed as the still of choice for full-flavored spirits, ie - whiskey and rum) a portion of the mash/wash is stripped and then the collected low wines are added back to the remainder of the mash/wash for the spirit run. In this case, a portion of the mash/wash has been stripped + spirit run while a portion is only spirit run.

This method will increase the %ABV during the spirit run to give you a full-flavored new make ready for cask entry.

In a similar manner, the strip + spirit run protocol is a “double distillation”, or a 2X distillation because the entire mash/wash has been distilled twice. And again, these definitions assume using a potstill as the distillation tool.

For those hobbyists who use a thumper, it may become a little more confusing depending on what you put into the thumper, ie - mash/wash or low wines, and then how many times the collected product is actually run through the boiler (once, twice, or more).

I hope this explanation helps new hobbyists to understand our nomenclature, as the experienced here understand well what multiple distillations mean.

Oh, and as a point of interest, I typically triple distill (3X) my rums in order to refine the rough flavors from the deer-lick molasses I use. It also produces a collected spirit that I age at 75%ABV. For my bourbons, I like 1-1/2 or 2X distillations, since I do not have a thumper.

And for my gins, I triple distill them, with a strip + spirit run protocol (2X) to produce the neutral base. And I’ll typically run the spirit run through the reflux still so I get a very high purity neutral (185-190 proof). Then, after macerating the botanicals, I run the gin spirit run through the potstill, giving the gin a 3X distillation.
ss

[Beerswimmer]

I'll nominate Yellow Lable for grainy, if the right grains are used.

I'll second it. YLAY gives almost zero yeast/fermentation flavor to my washes and spirits so all I taste is the grains.

[bluc]

Saf yeasts are good for strong malty grainy flavours ..
Good for biscuit flavour to.

[Bolverk]

Sorry not much help on the yeast part... but I'd pic something on the neutral side like US-05 or bakers.

My understanding from reading on pre-prohibition style whiskeys is that the mashes didn't have enough DP to convert all the starches from the grain, and that unconverted starch would carry in the distillate giving the whiskeys a much more grainy profile. I've even heard of some pros only using like 80-90% of recommended amount of enzymes so that they are intentionally leaving unconverted starch.

[dukethebeagle120]

Up your fermentation temperatures and distill on grain

[rubberduck71]

But, when making a spirit, the distillation processes are ultimately more important to flavor development. I use the 1-1/2 distillation method if I really want to “punch up” the flavor in the spirit. Also, when stripping the distiller’s beer, be sure to collect down to 25%ABV at least to get all of the flavors often found in the “backend” of the run. A 1-1/2 distillation will help you get to proper barrel entry proof while keeping as much of the grainbill’s flavor as possible.

ss

I will 2nd (or is it 3rd by this point?) the 1.5 technique.

I started out on a 4L Airstill about 4 years ago. Each run is ~3 hrs. What a time-sink it was to run 5 gal of ferment 4x, gathering the low wines, and then the spirit run, which if memory serves, was 4+ hrs.

Then I ran into a thread here on HD regarding that technique, so I gave it a whirl. I love rye, so my go-to was Odin's Rye Bread recipe (found under Tried & True HD sub-forum) for the next 6 months:

Run 1 - collect as low wines (~1L)
Run 2 - low wines + ~3L of wash as a spirit run. Yield was roughly 500 mL hearts + 800 mL feints (heads + tails)
Run 3 - feints from previous run + wash. Rinse & repeat until you're out of wash.
Each run was 3-4 hrs, but after run 2, you're getting hearts cut. So time invested gave more "instant" returns.

Then I upgraded to 35L/8 gal Digiboil. For some reason, didn't do many 1.5 runs; mostly just 2x which made good stuff.

Then a buddy of mine got a 16 gal pot w/ a thumper. Made some very decent stuff there. I went & got a 2nd thumper & have been messing around with various thumper charging techniques since.

Hope you find your optimal technique. The beauty of this hobby is the infinite variables to mess with.

[MooseMan]

I'll nominate Yellow Lable for grainy, if the right grains are used.

I'll second it. YLAY gives almost zero yeast/fermentation flavor to my washes and spirits so all I taste is the grains.

I'll 3rd YLAY.

It might be that the YLAY is not fully converting everything, and that's what is providing the flavour.
As a beer maker, you aim for less than a full starch conversion to gain extra body and mouthful, which also brings the malt flavour higher.
Anyone who wants to understand it better, either listen to the podcasts or read the ExBeeriments on the website, it's chock full of info that carries across into all grain distillation.

[bluc]

I find a high abv mash helps to. Another vote for ylay(you really should sour the mash to prevent off smell).
Big fan of biscuit in whiskeys. Any hints?