Food for thought and a question for distillers who use Bakers Yeast

[Saltbush Bill]

Some food for thought , Ive made this recipe many many times, it uses normal everyday bakers yeast, in this country that usually means "Lowans Yeast" cause that's whats mostly in the supermarkets.
https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/how ... /3w0aoadih
Fwiw this recipe makes a great focaccia, please have a go at it.....super simple and very tasty....especially if you top before baking with a few anchovies, black olives , bits of capsicum or what ever else takes your fancy.
Twisted B this would go great in you Pizza Oven at the right temp.
The question is , why do we as distillers place so much importance on keeping a wash warm if its a wash that contains bakers yeast, when the same yeast can obviously do its job very nicely in a refrigerator when making this recipe?
Is it possible that we could run washes at lower temps , they would just be slower...............it never really gets cold enough here were I am that I have issues with temperature to the point where they interfere with fermentation..

[Steve Broady]

I’ve been baking bread for as long as I can remember, and have let dough rise anywhere from a warm oven to a refrigerator. Maybe for that reason, I’ve not worried about a wash being too cold. I always assumed that keeping it warm was mostly for speed, and maybe for some specific esters, in the case of rum. But like you, I’m curious to learn what others have to say.

[Yummyrum]

I guess it begs the question
What is the main purpose of bread yeast when making bread …… verse …. What is the purpose of bread yeast when making Alcohol

OK that was two questions o


And what are the desired outcomes from both .

[Steve Broady]

What is the main purpose of bread yeast when making bread …… verse …. What is the purpose of bread yeast when making Alcohol

Isn’t the answer the same for both, at least from the point of view of the yeast? Turn sugar into CO2 and alcohol. For bread, we want the CO2, for booze we want the alcohol.

[The Baker]

Well in both cases the yeast produces alcohol and carbon dioxide.
In the case of bread the expanding 'gases' fill and expand the cells in the dough, making the loaf rise and become less dense.
And are then baked off.

And in the case of distillation, the carbon dioxide is lost during fermentation.
And the heat of distillation, at its simplest, makes alcohol separate and rise from basically water. It is condensed and collected.

Geoff

[Bushman]

Fermenting at a higher temperature can cause your yeast to grow too quickly and run out of nutrients before it finishes consuming the sugar in the wort, leading to an incomplete fermentation. It also may result in unwanted esters from the yeast or even harsh fusel alcohols which can make your beer taste ‘hot’. At warmer temperatures yeast cells can start to become stressed and die, leaving less cells to do the work which can result in poor fermentation and off flavours. If the yeast cannot complete fermentation this can leave you with a lot of unfermented sugars in your beer, resulting in a sweeter final beer.

Fermenting below the recommended fermentation temperature may result in slow or stopped fermentation which leaves your beer susceptible to infection. Fermenting cold will also limit the production of esters which can result in a beer that is lacking flavour.

That is why the ability to control your temperature allows you to consistently replicate your beers across different batches.

Just some thoughts from other posts related to fermentation.

[NormandieStill]

I have no temperature control for my fermenters beyond the fact that they are in the house. However my house is very well insulated and generally stays at 19-20C from autumn to spring and only climbs up when it gets really hot (for Northern france) in the summer. As a result most of my ferments take place at 20C. I have trouble detecting the classic tails marker of wet cardboard which I've found very subtly in only one ferment. I do so see if this is related.

My Apple brandy ferments are outside where the temperature is currently holding at around 12C during the day. That's going to be a several month long ferment.

My neighbour who is a baker and various other online sources talk about slow bread ferments to allow textural changes to occur without overdoing the yeastiness.

[subbrew]

I would assume bread yeast has evolved over time to work best at room temp or perhaps a bit higher. Just like beer yeasts have optimum temperature ranges. Will they work higher or lower, certainly but may give off different flavors and ferment at different speeds.

An example I am familiar with is US-05, the yeast I have used most for beer over the last 17 years because I don't like an estery beer. But if it ferments a bit cold, say 64 degrees I can get peach flavors. And if it goes warm, say 74 F, it will throw some esters. But, if it is a beer I want to finish with a low residual gravity I will bump up the temp to 72 F or so at the last to help it consume a couple more points of gravity before it drops out.

Given the wide ranges of temp used for bread I have to assume bread yeast is more forgiving and has a wider optimum range. Having used it for Joe's ancient orange mead I do know it can have some esters and hot alcohols if you ferment that in the upper 70s. But it can take a long time to ferment if it is in the mid to lower 60s but fewer hot alcohols.

[tommysb]

My understanding is that warmer temperatures lead to active yeast, which allow yeast to outcompete unwanted organisms. Looking at it the other way, colder ferment temps lead to more chance of infection.

If you are pitching at a rate where the yeast has to first go through a reproductive phase, then warmer temperature shortens that lag time and also reduces chance for other nasties to take hold.

Once the alcohol level rises a bit, that also inhibits unwanted organisms - but also inhibits the yeast a bit more, too.

If you look at lager fermentations (which are classic cold fermentations), a lot of activity still goes on at low temperature at the end once most of the alcohol has been produced. In this part, the yeast is active 'cleaning up' things like diacetyl, but not so much producing alcohol.

If doing a lager fermentation profile you also want to prevent a stall - this can happen when temperature changes rapidly, or the yeast somehow undergoes any other type of 'shock' (pH crash, for example). Have a read about lager fermentation profiles/programs - the germans have a lot of material on it.

If you were to start with your yeast at say, 18c, and use active chilling cool by one degree per day - after a week you would have a slow 11c ferment, but the yeast would still be working, and not have dropped out of suspension.

I reckon you COULD ferment lower with quite some success - if you get a good, active yeast population, good level of nutrients, and don't shock the yeast. You would probably have to pitch proportionally more yeast at the start, also.

A really thorough explanation of the variables and considerations. I've attached some of the fermentation profiles in case the source site goes down.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Fermenting_Lagers

[Northsouth]

You are touching upon a question I have been, eheh, brewing on now for a while. If you can make a pizza with unmalted flour, why would milled grain not ferment with baker's yeast? Why does the pizza dough not need enzymes?

[Twisted Brick]

Thanks for posting this recipe, Bill. I love an authentic focaccia (not the faux stuff sold in the bread isles at the supermarket). My handle on the brick oven-building Forum was Gianni Focaccia. I make it on occasion, with thin garlic slices and rosemary. I once actually tried a recipe that called for an entire cup of olive oil poured into the valleys of a sheet pan loaf, and to this day wonder where all of that oil went. Gonna give your recipe a try.

The question is, why do we as distillers place so much importance on keeping a wash warm if its a wash that contains bakers yeast, when the same yeast can obviously do its job very nicely in a refrigerator when making this recipe?
Is it possible that we could run washes at lower temps , they would just be slower...............it never really gets cold enough here were I am that I have issues with temperature to the point where they interfere with fermentation.

IMO, yes. Since my brewing days I have always liked the profiles from ale yeasts that require cooler ferment temps. These yeasts make a really clean wash but take longer.

On the bread side, I let my sourdoughs bulk ferment (not proof) cold overnight, but let my pizza (NY style) dough bulk ferment for 4 days to build flavor. At fridge temps, the yeast kind of goes dormant, not making C02, but still eating sugars, increasing flavor (sour). The crusts brown nicely though.

My understanding is that warmer temperatures lead to active yeast, which allow yeast to outcompete unwanted organisms. Looking at it the other way, colder ferment temps lead to more chance of infection.

Pretty sure it works the other way around. Bacteria grow most rapidly in the Danger Zone (40F – 140F). Following conversion, I rapid chill my washes right away (to 90-95F) to get them into the (safer) lower half of the Zone. Also, fermenting in the mid 60’s to mid 70’s has largely removed all offensive tails for me, resulting in a really clean ferment overall. I pitch a large active starter that mirrors the main mash grain bill, and this volume of yeast gets to work with a minimum of lag time.

You are touching upon a question I have been, eheh, brewing on now for a while. If you can make a pizza with unmalted flour, why would milled grain not ferment with baker's yeast? Why does the pizza dough not need enzymes?

You’re talking about two different things. Pizza dough, like all leavened bread traps C02 created by yeast to make it rise. Milled grain, mashed with enzymes creates sugar that is later fermented into ethanol. FWIW, some flours have a small amount of malt added to them. Research Diastatic Power and it should make it clearer.

[subbrew]

. Also, fermenting in the mid 60’s to mid 70’s has largely removed all offensive tails for me, resulting in a really clean ferment overall. I pitch a large active starter that mirrors the main mash grain bill, and this volume of yeast gets to work with a minimum of lag time.

Twisted - have you used used bakers or DADY at those lower temps

[Twisted Brick]

Twisted - have you used used bakers or DADY at those lower temps

I have not. The only time I used bakers was when I was brand new on TPW and UJ. Its been ale yeasts ever since.

[tommysb]

My understanding is that warmer temperatures lead to active yeast, which allow yeast to outcompete unwanted organisms. Looking at it the other way, colder ferment temps lead to more chance of infection.

Pretty sure it works the other way around. Bacteria grow most rapidly in the Danger Zone (40F – 140F). Following conversion, I rapid chill my washes right away (to 90-95F) to get them into the (safer) lower half of the Zone. Also, fermenting in the mid 60’s to mid 70’s has largely removed all offensive tails for me, resulting in a really clean ferment overall. I pitch a large active starter that mirrors the main mash grain bill, and this volume of yeast gets to work with a minimum of lag time.

I think this is a matter of semantics, and what we mean when we're talking about hot/cold! As I would count 90F/30C as a warm ferment. But the idea, is that each yeast will have a sweet spot/range where it performs well. Drop below that range, and the yeast gets sluggish and can be infected.

Bakers' yeast is good around 25-30C (75-90F), and below this (let's say, 15C/60F) is colder for the yeast and its reproductive and anaerobic activity will be inhibited . If you were to use a specific lager strain, It would perform much better at 15C, and be able to reproduce and produce alcohol with less chance of infection, since lager yeasts are OK in that range (even might be a bit warm for it).

So when I am talking about colder/warmer, I mean 'colder compared to the ideal range for that yeast strain' and warmer being 'in the range where the yeast is warm enough to be vigorously active, without producing off flavours or being too hot for the yeast'.

I would still say that a lager yeast at 10c will take longer to ferment out the same wash than a bakers' yeast or Kveik at 30c, and so will spend longer in a low-alcohol state, and have a higher chance of an infection (of course infection can come after fermentation too).

[Dancing4dan]

Fleischmann’s website. Major bakers yeast manufacturer in North America. Gives some interesting insight into their “different “ yeasts and temperatures.

fleischmannsyeast.com/frequently-asked-questions/

[Tater]

Most of old timers I knew preferred buried mash boxes Claimed it kept ferment same .wild yeast after dogwoods had bloomed store bought in winter if something happen .From what Ive learned and read yeast that established in same environment over and over becomes best tolerant to that specifically .Remember grandpa and others talk about how fast ferments became as time went on .Regardless where yeast was sourced Temp wouldnt vary much and ground temp here would been around 60 f Sure wish ol Goose would comment .

[Deplorable]

. Also, fermenting in the mid 60’s to mid 70’s has largely removed all offensive tails for me, resulting in a really clean ferment overall. I pitch a large active starter that mirrors the main mash grain bill, and this volume of yeast gets to work with a minimum of lag time.

Twisted - have you used used bakers or DADY at those lower temps

Subbrew,
I normally use US05 for all of my AG mashes, but this fall I decided I'd try bakers yeast on a batch of Single Malt since the grain was gifted to me. I ferment in my garage, and its been in the mid 50s to low 60s here (F). Rather than cool my mash to 68F as normal I cooled it to 90, and dry pitched about 1.5 tablespoons of bakers on the top of the mash and put the lid on the barrel. for the first two days I left the barrel with just a warp of Reflectix bubble wrap around the side. On the 3rd day, it overflowed a little and I had to punch down the grain gap for the next couple of days. On the evening of day 3 when I cleaned up the mess, I removed the insulation and left it be. It got to 1.02 and seemed to stop or slow dramatically. I wrapped in in Reflectix and a couple of blankets and applied a heating pad to bring it back up to around 70 and it finished up dry. It'll probably be a couple of weeks before I run it, but the finished ferment tasted fine this morning.
All that to say, Bakers seemed to work fine fermenting in a cool place and made more than enough heat to keep itself happy with minimal insulation or effort. The jury is still out on if the finished product will keep me from buying US-05 for my regular mash bills.

[subbrew]

All that to say, Bakers seemed to work fine fermenting in a cool place and made more than enough heat to keep itself happy with minimal insulation or effort. The jury is still out on if the finished product will keep me from buying US-05 for my regular mash bills.

Be interested to see what you get. I tried US-05 on some whiskey, similar bill to others I have done with DADY, and to my surprise heads and tails were larger with the US-05. My keeper cut was at least 255 smaller. Just one data point but a surprising one.

[OlympicMtDoo]

Fermenting at a higher temperature can cause your yeast to grow too quickly and run out of nutrients before it finishes consuming the sugar in the wort, leading to an incomplete fermentation. It also may result in unwanted esters from the yeast or even harsh fusel alcohols which can make your beer taste ‘hot’. At warmer temperatures yeast cells can start to become stressed and die, leaving less cells to do the work which can result in poor fermentation and off flavours. If the yeast cannot complete fermentation this can leave you with a lot of unfermented sugars in your beer, resulting in a sweeter final beer.

Fermenting below the recommended fermentation temperature may result in slow or stopped fermentation which leaves your beer susceptible to infection. Fermenting cold will also limit the production of esters which can result in a beer that is lacking flavour.

That is why the ability to control your temperature allows you to consistently replicate your beers across different batches.

Just some thoughts from other posts related to fermentation.

Thanks Bushman I like your explanation it's short and very well put together

[bilgriss]

Part of the answer to Yummy's question - what is the purpose of bread yeast? makes us consider that bread yeast itself is bred and selected to produce CO2. It's an interesting derivative observation compared to brewing yeasts, which are bred and selected to produce alcohol and certain flavor profiles. You get slightly different results, but with good selection of cuts, the result for distillation is mostly pretty similar, with a bit of variance in head and tail cuts, and arguably smaller amounts of difference in flavor or feel of heart cuts.

Bushman's explanation is solid, and the affect of high/low temperature is probably more pronounced in this hobby than the yeast selection itself. A good healthy ferment is what we seek.

[shadylane]

My 2 cents worth about bakers yeast and temp.

When baking bread at room temp, let it rise in a warm place.
It's the same with fermenting. Ya need the temp to stay around 70'f - 86' ish.
Fast fermentation keeps the Co2 elevator working. That keeps the wash or mash stirred up.
A mash is slightly more forgiving because the cap will act like a blanket and helps hold in heat.

If extra heat is needed, apply it to the bottom of the fermenter.
The worst thing is to have a fermenter setting on the cold floor.

[shadylane]

Most of old timers I knew preferred buried mash boxes Claimed it kept ferment same .

In my neck of the woods, sawmills and distilling went hand in hand.
During the winter, they would burn slabs in the hole to warm the ground, shovel in some dirt, then set and hide the mash boxes.

[Bradster68]

I never ferment at the higher end of ferment temps. I use bakers but 80 is my (as often as I can maintain)highest temp.