Neutral Spirit .

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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florr
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Neutral Spirit .

Post by florr »

Mod Edit : I have changed the topic title as it was confusing . Sorry but I am not going to change the Re : tittle on all posts as there are now too many to deal with

Hello everyone,

I would like to build a reflux distiller for neutral alcohol. To make liqueurs afterwards.

I would like to build a CCVM packed column in stainless steel, I have the welded material. Why CCVM? From what I understand, it does the job and it's simple to build. The best thing would be to wait for the azeotropic, around 96%abv

For the boiler, I have the choice between 50L and 100L. I don't really know what to take yet

For the column, I need information, particularly for the length and the diameter. I can build it with a 2mm thick tube, and for the diameter I have the choice between 76mm, 89mm or 114mm (I think it's 3", 3.5" and 4.5" but I'm not sure)

For the length, I would also like to have your opinions, I heard in 12x and 20x the diameter of the column is it real for all diameters

For the length and packing material, I don't know what to put also, do you have any ideas?

If you have similar installations, I would like to have your feedback, photos...

I made a small diagram, but the dimensions are not definitive, it is to have an overview.
still.png
I would also like to have your opinions on the necessary heating power and the time to run the quantity of the boiler? (Gas because I'm not connected to the grid)

Thanks in advance
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I went with a 3" VM still. With VM, it just runs itself. All I have to do is set the water flow to the condensers and the flow rate is not at all critical like it is with CM. With a CM, the flow rate is what controls the still. You might consider this if you're working off the grid. To adjust the take-off rate, I simply turn the knob on the gate valve. It literally just runs great by itself from the beginning to the very end of the run. I only have to turn the gate valve knob a couple of times. Once to start taking off foreshots, maybe again during heads and again during hearts. It's literally that simple. It's really the most convenient design I've ever seen.

2" sounded slower than I wanted so I went with 3" and I'm very glad I did. My packed column is constructed of 4 Tri-Clamp spools in total being 6' tall. I can remove a 12" spool to make it 5' if I wanted to, but I usually just operate with 6'. For a 3" column, 5' is standard. I use properly sized Lava Rock for the packing and 4 rolls of copper mesh at the very base of the column because my still is nearly 100% stainless steel.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by florr »

Thank you for your experience, do you have a photo? The VM method questions me... What is the size of your boiler? And your column diameter, 3" is really 76mm?
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by greggn »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:12 am
With VM, it just runs itself. All I have to do is set the water flow to the condensers and the flow rate is not at all critical like it is with CM.

+1

My still head progression has gone CM > CCVM > VM. Each move has made distilling a refluxed product easier and then easier still.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Yummyrum »

That still design you posted is a CM ( Coolant Management )not a CCVM .(Condenser Controlled Vapour Management)
They are the trickiest of all to run .

I agree with Salt and greggn that a VM ( Vapour Management ) is the simplest and easiest to run .

You might as well go the 100l boiler if you can . Seeing yiu are on Gas , it won’t matter if you run smaller amounts in it .

I’d go 3” .
I built 4” but its a pain in the arse .They really need to be driven hard to get the advantage of the bigger size . That means you’ll have the gas so so high , flames will be leaping up the sides of the boiler . You will require a tank of water about 3-4000litres to do a run . It will be over 3 metres tall and require a ladder to operate . Sure , it could produce just under 4l/h ( probably could have run it harder , but flame safety was a concern )
(Incidentally , if you do use a tank , the temp of the water in it will rise through out the run .On VM , this is of little concern , but on a CM and to a lesser degree CCVM, you’ll need to constantly adjust coolant flow to compensate .The smaller the tank , the bigger the problem )

2” column is OK if you don’t make a lot . Be prepared to spend a day babysitting it as it drips out at circa 1 l/h .

Having said this , I have stopped using my 4” and gone back to 2” . I’m hoping to one day build a 3” as I see that as a more realistic size .

Yes 20:1 seems to work the best in terms of bang for buck .
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Salt Must Flow »

florr wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:21 pm Thank you for your experience, do you have a photo? The VM method questions me... What is the size of your boiler? And your column diameter, 3" is really 76mm?
Being totally off the grid is huge inconvenience. Will you be using 12V batteries, water pump and water reservoir?

If you can get access to 240V, it will spoil you.

This is the VM head. The reflux condenser is 5/15" double wound and 9" long. There's a thermowell for temp sensor in the vapor take-off. The sight glass is just a convenience so I can see the falling reflux. That's a 1" gate valve.
VM Head.jpg


15.5 gal keg boiler for doing spirit runs. I use a significantly larger boiler for doing stripping runs. If I could do this boiler over again, I'd use the 3" ferrule in the center and the 6" ferrule off to the side.
15.5 gal Keg Boiler.jpg
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Here's a recent thread where Jabman switched his CM over to VM. I think his was 2" though.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by elbono »

Unless you want to buy SPP you need a lot more than 12:1 height: diameter, 20:1 or more is normal.

I run a 24" x 2" CCVM with SPP on a keg similar to SMFs and am very happy with it. I'm extremely limited on how high I can go though.

I went the easy route and used CSST (flexible gas line) for my condensers. Search the forum for CSST and you'll find pictures.

Since you're in Europe you may be able to get SPP at a reasonable price. Here's a supplier in Poland but it is sized for 50mm diameter or smaller.
https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... results=16
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Florr , the image that you first posted is not a CCVM.....it is a CM.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by still_stirrin »

Here’s another “user’s endorsement”:

I have a combination LM/VM stillhead for my column. (see my signature for a link to my reflux stillhead description)

The boiler is a 1/2 barrel (15-1/2 gallon) keg, electric heated and insulated. The column is 2” ID copper x 1 meter tall (39”), or 20 times the ID. It too is insulated and I use glass marbles as packing.

The reflux condenser is concentric and the LM condensate cup is annular around the vapor tube. The LM valve is a 3/8” compression needle valve.

The VM branch is a 2x2x1-1/2 DWV (drain-waste-vent) plumbing Tee. The VM valve is a 1” stainless ball valve (a gate valve would work just as effectively tho). The advantage to the ball valve is that the position of the valve handle is a good indication of the valve’s opening for repeatability.

The VM (vapor managed) is very easy to operate because the reflux ratio is determined by the vapor split between the reflux condenser and the branch line where the VM throttles the vapor that progresses to the product condenser. The RR is independent of the vapor rate production (proportional to heat input) or the reflux condenser’s coolant flow (you don’t have to adjust the water flowrate). However, the reflux condenser must be sized to knockdown all of the boiler’s vapor production even at full power input. So, the VM valve is the control for what vapor advances to the product outlet and the rest of the vapor goes up to the reflux condenser gets condensed and sent back down the column.

Basically, the VM reflux head is “set and forget” and it will maintain the same reflux ratio throughout the run. But, the note here is that as you approach the end of the run, the product output will naturally slow even though the %ABV will stay high (as determined by the RR setting).

I use the VM output primarily when I’m running reflux. But I occasionally use the LM valve outlet to catch and collect the very 1st volatiles, or foreshots, and then open the VM for the balance of the run. The liquid managed control is a very slow process although it is capable of producing a very high %ABV. It is good at compressing the early (volatile) constituents. So, the combo head is a great tool for reflux distilling.

Finally, on sizing, I find the 2” system works fine, although a 3” would cut the distillation day by 50%. But, 3” copper pipe and fittings are significantly more expensive than 2”. So, I made a budget decision to use 2”. I have no regrets, however, with my decision. A boiler charge will take me 10 hours from start to clean up and I can live with that.

Sorry for the wordy response, but I wanted to add a thorough perspective for you to consider. Hope it helps.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I've been curious by what metric or convention does someone measure how LM "is good at compressing the early (volatile) constituents" better than VM. A recent topic here. Exactly HOW does LM supposedly do it BETTER and just HOW does one determine how it does? That thread isn't the only one that questions this.

Until that has been definitively determined, by what margin is it a supposed 'improvement' or in some way any benefit vs the additional cost to build, I'd consider just keeping it simple at first while maintaining modularity. Choose a reflux still head, use it and LATER consider whether adding additional modifications might improve your results based upon actual facts.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by NormandieStill »

elbono wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:12 pm Since you're in Europe you may be able to get SPP at a reasonable price. Here's a supplier in Poland but it is sized for 50mm diameter or smaller.
https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... results=16
Stop tempting me!

I can pull 94-95% at about 800ml / hr with my 1m 2" column packed with copper mesh. Putting about 2kW into the boiler. The question is: would replacing my copper mesh with around 2 litres of spp get my take-off rate up enough to justify the €54 investment. Bearing in mind that even shaving 2 hours off a neutral run would only save me 4-6 hours per year. :wink:
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by shadylane »

florr wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:53 am
I would like to build a reflux distiller for neutral alcohol....(Gas because I'm not connected to the grid)
1st question is water source for cooling?
2nd question is how tall is your ceiling?
Last question is, are you planning to do one run and done or strip and spirit run?
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by elbono »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:30 am Stop tempting me!
Since my short column only holds I liter I'd be guessing. I can easily pull 95+ ABV at a pretty good rate though. I've been on a pot stilling kick for about a year I'll look for some old notes and look for actual production rates.

They will ship by cheaper methods if you send an email and and ask. I had 4 liters shipped to the US for €130 total last year before I went back to the pot still. It was "postal economy" which is ocean freight, took just over 8 weeks.

I've built up too many feints at this point, need to pull out the CCVM and make some neutral soon.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by elbono »

elbono wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:34 am
NormandieStill wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:30 am Stop tempting me!
I'll look for some old notes and look for actual production rates.
Looks like I was running about 3 liters/hour of what I judged to be clean azeo from a batch of 27% ABV feints.

I was running on gas back then so power was unmeasured but enough to be at or near "semi-flooded"

That was with SPP purchased as 1 liter but I got more like 1.1 liter.

2" type m copper pipe column actual ID 51 mm.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by MooseMan »

florr wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:53 am Hello everyone,

I would like to build a reflux distiller for neutral alcohol. To make liqueurs afterwards.

I would like to build a CCVM packed column in stainless steel, I have the welded material. Why CCVM? From what I understand, it does the job and it's simple to build. The best thing would be to wait for the azeotropic, around 96%abv

For the boiler, I have the choice between 50L and 100L. I don't really know what to take yet

For the column, I need information, particularly for the length and the diameter. I can build it with a 2mm thick tube, and for the diameter I have the choice between 76mm, 89mm or 114mm (I think it's 3", 3.5" and 4.5" but I'm not sure)

For the length, I would also like to have your opinions, I heard in 12x and 20x the diameter of the column is it real for all diameters

For the length and packing material, I don't know what to put also, do you have any ideas?

If you have similar installations, I would like to have your feedback, photos...

I made a small diagram, but the dimensions are not definitive, it is to have an overview.
still.png
I would also like to have your opinions on the necessary heating power and the time to run the quantity of the boiler? (Gas because I'm not connected to the grid)

Thanks in advance
Hi florr

I built a 2.5" (63mm) CCVM column on a keg and it works really well for neutral.
I had to re pack the column as I got that wrong first and could not get past 94% ABV, but now I can run 95%+ at over 1.5l/HR and I get a great neutral.

I did a build thread on it which might be helpful to you, search for it but let me know if you can't find it

Also there is a thread called "chasing the last 2-3%" that I started, and it got quickly filled with priceless info from people here who REALLY know their reflux kit!
Check that out.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by florr »

Thank you all for your messages. I understood my mistakes. I didn't have time to read everything (I'm French and it takes me time :wink: )

Thank you for your feedback, I will study all of this, I will come back to ask you questions. I understand that the best of the best is a VM for many of you.

thank you all
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by shadylane »

florr wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:55 am
I understand that the best of the best is a VM for many of you.
My preference is CM, because it has the widest range of adjustment.
For neutral spirits a LM works good also.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I cant say that one is better than the other, they will all do the job if run properly, I think it comes down to personal preference in the end.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by shadylane »

For making neutral it really doesn't matter, all the options are pretty much equal.
LM has an advantage over other still heads due to it not requiring a product condenser.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by drmiller100 »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:30 am
elbono wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:12 pm Since you're in Europe you may be able to get SPP at a reasonable price. Here's a supplier in Poland but it is sized for 50mm diameter or smaller.
https://destylatorymiedziane.pl/en/acce ... results=16
Stop tempting me!

I can pull 94-95% at about 800ml / hr with my 1m 2" column packed with copper mesh. Putting about 2kW into the boiler. The question is: would replacing my copper mesh with around 2 litres of spp get my take-off rate up enough to justify the €54 investment. Bearing in mind that even shaving 2 hours off a neutral run would only save me 4-6 hours per year. :wink:
If you can add another 10 to 12 inches of packing to your existing still you might be over the hump.

It sounds like you have almost enough packing. You can't have too much packing.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by drmiller100 »

I prefer offset LM. Simple. Effective. Easy to build.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by florr »

Hello everyone,

After researching the subject a bit, I'm still lost. Between the CM, the VM and the LM. Technically, I could build 1 of the 3 types indifferently.

- the cooling source comes from a 6000L buried tank
- the pot will be a 98L, which can be more or less
- the diameter of the column, I will go with 89mm. so 3.5" or for the high 20:1 would be 1600mm
- the filling, what height do you recommend? SPP with copper mesh and stainless steel mesh?

For the type of design, I will perhaps go with a VM in the end, I have the possibility of having a 1"1/4 valve, do you think that this is sufficient?

Can you briefly describe the distillation steps for each design?
What I understood, don't judge me if I'm wrong, help me instead:

- Heat the wash
- Harvest the heads up to 78°C
- Maintain the steam temperature at 78°C to harvest the hearts
- Play with the valve to have an output output of around 1L/min to have a good reflux rate


Thank you again for your clarifications
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by still_stirrin »

florr wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:54 pm Hello everyone,

After researching the subject a bit, I'm still lost. Between the CM, the VM and the LM. Technically, I could build 1 of the 3 types indifferently.

- the cooling source comes from a 6000L buried tank
- the pot will be a 98L, which can be more or less
- the diameter of the column, I will go with 89mm. so 3.5" or for the high 20:1 would be 1600mm
- the filling, what height do you recommend? SPP with copper mesh and stainless steel mesh? <— If you’re trying to make a high purity spirit, then you should pack it to 1.5 meters, at least. 20 x 89mm = 1780mm, so you’re less than that by a considerable amount. I recommend getting it as close as possible to the 20x design for the highest purity.

For the type of design, I will perhaps go with a VM in the end, I have the possibility of having a 1"1/4 valve, do you think that this is sufficient? <— A 1-1/4” valve will work, especially for lower reflux ratios. You could use a 1” valve too. For high reflux ratios, your valve will be almost closed such that takeoff will be slow. Large valves just allow you to pass more vapor out to the product condenser, which will allow lower purity products.

Can you briefly describe the distillation steps for each design? <— I could, but that would be “spoonfeeding”. You need to do your “due diligence” and read a while. The VM is easy to run, so you’ll learn quickly. Enjoy the read.
What I understood, don't judge me if I'm wrong, help me instead:

- Heat the wash
- Harvest the heads up to 78°C <— Well, first off … as you heat the boiler, ALL of the wash will heat up, not just the heads. If you don’t understand this, you need to read a while longer.
- Maintain the steam temperature at 78°C to harvest the hearts <— Good luck with this. You’ll be watching the thermometer a LONG TIME waiting for it to produce. Again, you’ve got a lot reading to do.
- Play with the valve to have an output output of around 1L/min to have a good reflux rate<— Adjusting the VM valve adjusts the reflux ratio, not the rate of production. To adjust the production rate, you adjust the heat input because that affects the vigor of the boil and the corresponding vapor production rate. You need to read some more.


Thank you again for your clarifications
Good luck with your progress.
Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss
Last edited by still_stirrin on Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Wildcats »

viewtopic.php?p=6848104#p6848104 here is just one. I found this by using the search function. All the questions you have... Have already been answered. All you need to do is read.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by florr »

Thanks again for these details.

I have a lot to learn in fact, I found a French website, it will be easier to familiarize myself with distillation.

I want you to share my new VM design.
vm.png

See you
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by NormandieStill »

In your diagram the dephlegmator is a reflux condenser. A dephleg lets some vapours pass through it to make it out of the column. A reflux condenser will condense all the vapours that reach it and the tee and valve are what you use to dial in the reflux ratio.

Other than that... yep. That looks like a VM. :wink:
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Salt Must Flow »

- the cooling source comes from a 6000L buried tank
That is awesome! I'm on well water and just send wast water down the drain. I'd love to have a buried tank to recirculate water.

- the diameter of the column, I will go with 89mm. so 3.5" or for the high 20:1 would be 1600mm
My VM is 3" and I get at least 3 to 3.25 LPH take-off rate at 2750W. I suspect 3.5" might be able to get a take-off rate around 4 LPH.

- the filling, what height do you recommend? SPP with copper mesh and stainless steel mesh?
SPP is so expensive and you'll need a lot for a 3.5" column. It's my understanding that most all SPP is made for 2" columns. I've seen one SPP that claims to be made for 3", but the wire diameter they use is smaller than what is typically recommended. I've always wanted to try SPP, but I tried properly sized Lava Rock and it has performed so well that I no longer have any interest in SPP. Lava Rock is inexpensive, readily available and easy to use.

For the type of design, I will perhaps go with a VM in the end, I have the possibility of having a 1"1/4 valve, do you think that this is sufficient?
1-1/4" gate valve should be fine. I use a 1" valve on my 3" and the valve is open 6 full turns while taking-off hearts. That means the valve is only partially open. If I used a larger (1-1/4") valve it would be open less, but will work fine. It's not so much about the size of the valve, but how much it needs to be open to give you the desired take-off rate. I know of at least one person on this forum that uses a 1-1/2" gate valve on a 3" VM.

- Heat the wash
- Harvest the heads up to 78°C
- Maintain the steam temperature at 78°C to harvest the hearts
With VM you can heat the boiler at 100% power. I heat-up at 5500W. Once up to temp, vapor will start to rise up the column. The reflux condenser should be turned on. Reduce power and operate at full reflux (gate valve closed) for 30 min to allow the column to stabilize/equalize. I reduce power to 2750W. Turn the product condenser on, barely crack open the gate valve and take-off foreshots slowly (smells like Acetone). Once you're into heads you can crack the gate valve open a bit more and continue taking-off heads a bit faster. Once you think you're out of heads and into hearts you can open the gate valve more. Keep taking-off hearts until tails arrive.

NOTICE I never mentioned any temperature. That's because temperature doesn't really mean anything. You will notice that the vapor temp at the top of the column will settle down once the column is equalized. You'll notice that the temp will rise a few 1/10ths degree in the beginning while removing foreshots, but the temp doesn't really mean anything and doesn't indicate cuts at all. You'll notice that the vapor take-off temp remains stable throughout the entire run through heads and hearts right up until the very end of the run. Once tails hits the vapor take-off temp will begin to rise a few 1/10th degree, doesn't drop and continues rising which indicates the run is over because you're into tails. At this point you should already be collecting in smaller jars so you don't get any tails in your hearts collection jars. VM is SUPER SIMPLE to operate. You'll love it.

- Play with the valve to have an output output of around 1L/min to have a good reflux rate
When you open the gate valve, that allows vapor to exit the still. The more the gate valve is open, the more vapor escapes therefore the higher take-off rate. You can tell what your take-off rate is by collecting in a glass graduated cylinder while timing it. 100% reflux means the gate valve is closed and 100% of the vapor is condensed by the reflux condenser. 90% reflux ratio means that 10% of the vapor is exiting the still and 90% is condensed by the reflux condenser.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Yeah I really don't know how well a dephlegmator would work as a reflux condenser. I understand it is desirable to just click to buy a condenser online, but I personally haven't seen a reflux condenser in an online shop that would work anywhere near as well as a simple double wound copper coil.
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Re: Neutral Spirit CCVM

Post by Sporacle »

Hey Florr good luck with your project.

Mods could we get the title of this thread changed, there is not one single diagram or real reference to a CCVM
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
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