Troubles running my new CM still

[PoolGuy]

I bought this still a few months back:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568012 ... pt=glo2usa



Changed gaskets. Added SCR controller. Added needle valve and 90degree ells to cooling. Added 2000W pre-heat element. Dumped parrot. Might have been better off..............don't say it.

I just finished running 30gal of SSS. Five stripping runs (worked fine with or without plates), and two spirit runs. I am trying to make as natural a spirit as I can with a plate still. I am a novice trying to figure out how to run a CM.

My first question is what should the plates look like when trying to create fractions? Spitting? A bit of boiling liquid? Lots of liquid boiling half way up the windows? Just how "vigorous" should they be?

Take a look at the dephlegmator in the picture. It is smaller that the already small 1.75" stack. I ran a strong stream of cool well water through the RC, and brought the heat up just to the point where it could hold vapor back (100% reflux). The plates were sputtering, but not vigorously. I held it there for some 30 minutes, just preventing vaper from passing by adjusting power. A little too much power would quickly overcome the dephlegmator. I then started to close the needle valve to get product. I had to reduce it to a trickle to get vapor, head around 168F. I collected drip by drip. I finally had the needle valve fully closed, and I was still just getting drips. So I'd call it a pot still at this point running on reduced power.

I finished the run by keeping the little dephlegmator very cool, and controlling product rate by adjusting power. At one point the plates were boiling vigorously. But WTF? I did not think this was how things were suppose to work.

Dephlegmator just too small? Or operator error? Help!

This CM seems like a PITA. I'm thinking of building a Bokakob stack for this contraption.

[shadylane]

I ran a strong stream of cool well water through the RC, and brought the heat up just to the point where it could hold vapor back (100% reflux). The plates were sputtering, but not vigorously. I held it there for some 30 minutes, just preventing vaper from passing by adjusting power. A little too much power would quickly overcome the dephlegmator. I then started to close the needle valve to get product. I had to reduce it to a trickle to get vapor, head around 168F. I collected drip by drip. I finally had the needle valve fully closed, and I was still just getting drips. So I'd call it a pot still at this point running on reduced power

Sounds like you need.
More power and adjust the dephleg cooling water to keep the plates loaded properly.
Happy plates sizzle, with the liquid level slightly above the downcomer inlet.
If you want a faster takeoff, increase the power if the plates will let you without flooding.
If not, increase the takeoff rate so the plates stop wanting to flood.

[Sporacle]

Same as Shady, more power. The plates need to be loaded so they are bubbling above the inlet for the downcomer.

I have two valves in parralel one is a ball and the other a needle on my deflagameter.
The needle valve is preset on a compression and fores flow and has another mark for when I start running.
This set up allows me to repeat accurately the flow for my deflagameter.

I would full power the still and full flow the deflagameter, the plates should begin to load.
If you are getting product out the PC then lower the power until the deflagameter can knock everything down.
Hopefully the plates are loaded, they should be bubbly quite vigorously.
Take note of your power setting, lower the power and observe the plates, do it slowly as the power change takes a while to come through.
When you are at a stage where you drop a plate then take note of that power.
Somewhere between those two is your power.

Mine is around 3kw on a 4 inch 4 plate.

Once you've set your power, gradually wind in your needle valve, this needs to be done slowly and methodically as it takes some time for the change to appear.
This will give you your water flow.
Now all you have to do is balance flow vs power and take off rate.
For me on my 4 inch fores and heads are at 1 lPH and I toss a litre into the cleaning jug.
Run speed is 2 to 2.5 LPH

This is just the way I ran and got the marks for my still, plenty of other ways to do it though
Keep at it, they are a really good piece of kit

[ThomasBrewer]

Folks, he already explained in the OP that he ran his cooling flow at 100%, brought the power up, and was only able to increase the power to the point the the plates were "sputtering".

He needs more cooling power, but the RC he currently has isn't up to the task with the temperature and flow of cooling water available.

Poolguy- You're going to need to figure out how to cool the water going into the dephlegmator, or get a boost pump to push more water volume.

[shadylane]

I collected drip by drip. I finally had the needle valve fully closed, and I was still just getting drips.

Add more power.

[MooseMan]

As you are so new to this hobby, I really think you'd be better off learning to run your new still as a pot for a few runs whilst you continue to read.

You've said "With or without plates" so you can take them out of each of those sections and have them empty yes?

If so, my advice would be to use enough empty sections to get the height you need for that condenser, and run it as a pot still to get used to it. Keep everything you run stored together if you like as your going to run it again.

Then, get some copper scrubby, fill all your empty sections with it and run everything that you've made so far (Proofed down to under 40%abv with the best water you can get) through the still again, setup like that, instead of plated. It's well accepted that plates are for flavour and packed is for neutral, no getting around it.

Doing this will get you closer to the neutral you want, with the limitations you have in that still.

[Sporacle]

Folks, he already explained in the OP that he ran his cooling flow at 100%, brought the power up, and was only able to increase the power to the point the the plates were "sputtering".

He needs more cooling power, but the RC he currently has isn't up to the task with the temperature and flow of cooling water available.

Poolguy- You're going to need to figure out how to cool the water going into the dephlegmator, or get a boost pump to push more water volume.

Either way he needs to increase his power, if he has to virtually stop flow to the deflagameter to get product he needs more power.
If he had no flow to the deflagmeter and his plates still wouldn't load then he is short on power, no amount of water flow will fix that problem.
My suggestion involved having a ball valve in parallel to hopefully improve his water flow.
The actual flow rate change through a deflagameter to change things dramatically is minuscule.
Yes he needs to maximise his water flow, hopefully a second valve as I suggested will do that

[shadylane]

30 liter boiler, but what is the column diameter and heater size.
Also are the plates bubble caps or sieve plates?

[Yummyrum]

Shady ,I think he said in the “which still should I buy “Topic that it was 2” and the Defleg is only 1.75”’

2” plated stills have never got much good press . You’ll notice the modules are quite long relative to the diameter . This at least a good thing and necessary in a 2” due to the relatively high vapour speed.

I think looking at the picture of the still , that the pissy Deflag is way undersized to cope . It’s short ,made of Stainless , so its conductivity is poor compared to an equivalent copper one and it’s narrower than the column so that will be even less available cooling surfaces . In short , vapour will be shooting right through it uncondensed no matter if you were pumping water flat chat through it …… unless of coarse you have the power turned right down to the point where the plates won’t load.

For shits and giggles , I’d put the longer PC in it’s place. Then see if you can run it at 100% reflux and get the plates to load and run smoothly .

Are the plates sieve plates or bubble caps . Are they installed up side down?

Edit : I’ve never watched 2” plates first hand , but I wonder about the description of spluttering . As I mentioned above , 2” have to be much longer between modules due ti the higher vapour speeds and the entrainment that occurs . Maybe the spluttering yiu see is just the problem that 2” have . Instead of a nice fizzing , the liquid gets blasted upwards .

[Sporacle]

Are the plates or bubble caps . Are they installed uosife down

Imagine doing that

[Saltbush Bill]

2” plated stills have never got much good press

Can't imagine how painfully slow one would be to run.......there is a reason that most built.....and 99% of the well built commercial available ones are 4 inch.

that the pissy Deflag is way undersized to cope .

My first thought when I looked at the photos.

Are the plates sieve plates or bubble caps .

Good question.....bubble caps will need less power than perforated plates.

[PoolGuy]

Thanks for all the replies, and sorry that I was not able to chime back in until today.

I think looking at the picture of the still , that the pissy Deflag is way undersized to cope . It’s short ,made of Stainless , so its conductivity is poor compared to an equivalent copper one and it’s narrower than the column so that will be even less available cooling surfaces . In short , vapour will be shooting right through it uncondensed no matter if you were pumping water flat chat through it …… unless of coarse you have the power turned right down to the point where the plates won’t load.

I think you nailed it. The deflag is just to small to knock everything back down unless the power (and vapor speed) is set so low that there is not enough power to properly load the plates.

For shits and giggles , I’d put the longer PC in it’s place. Then see if you can run it at 100% reflux and get the plates to load and run smoothly.

Brilliant idea. I could probably clamp the RC and PC together, plumb in series, and see if I can achieve 100% reflux and properly load the plates. Then reduce cooling water and see if I can get some vapor to pass. This would at least prove my "deflag just too freakin' small" theory.

Here is what the plates (bubble caps? sieve plates?) look like. Installed metal tang down per instructions. Looks like they aint' even copper!

As you are so new to this hobby, I really think you'd be better off learning to run your new still as a pot for a few runs whilst you continue to read.

You've said "With or without plates" so you can take them out of each of those sections and have them empty yes?

Yes. I have 5 strips/2 spirits (TPW) and 5 strips/3 spirits (SSS) under my belt with this still. No pro, but I think that I am starting to understand her.

Then, get some copper scrubby, fill all your empty sections with it and run everything that you've made so far. It's well accepted that plates are for flavour and packed is for neutral, no getting around it.

Doing this will get you closer to the neutral you want, with the limitations you have in that still.

Since neutral is my goal, maybe just dump all the plates and fill the column up with copper scrubbies? Or SPP? After of course addressing the deflag.

Thanks again all. Happy Thanksgiving. So much to be thankful for. Like homedistiller.org!

[Sporacle]

I finished the run by keeping the little dephlegmator very cool, and controlling product rate by adjusting power. At one point the plates were boiling vigorously. But WTF? I did not think this was how things were suppose to work.

What was your output like at this point? Your plates are supposed to bubble vigorously.

. I finally had the needle valve fully closed, and I was still just getting drips. So I'd call it a pot still at this point running on reduced power.

This bit is the one that Shady has pointed out, you need to address your power input as well

The solution is probably as simple as Yummy has pointed out.

Plus how have you got your RC plumbed?

[PoolGuy]

Long story short, the dephlegmator makes virtually no difference whether I am running it with a steady STRONG stream of cool 50F-ish water or if it is shut down completely. Product rate is not controllable with RC water. I can crank the power, get the plates boiling nicely, even flooding. But output is much faster than I think it should be. I can reduce the power and get a nice little trickle, but the plates sputter and/or shut down. This is all regardless of RC water flow rate.

I like your ball valve bypass idea, and may implement it in the future. I messed around with RC plumbing, swapping input/output, moving needle valve, dedicated "drain" line, etc. I was trying to make sure there was not air trapped in there or something. But I am confident that I had strong solid cool water in that thing. Cold to the touch. But good question.

Here is a picture of the lil' fella:

[Salt Must Flow]

If you need to give that dephlegmator more knockdown power, you could drill 3 more holes on both ends, insert copper pipe and solder them or have them TIG welded or brazed in place. That would give it more than twice the knockdown power and responsiveness to the water flow rate.

[Sporacle]

Poolguy, good luck. If you could an actual figure on your output rate when the plates were loaded would help along with an abv.
What may seem to fast might actually be OK.
Flow rates, abv and power inputs. As much info as possible otherwise we will all still be guessing as to what's happening.

[IAmPistolPete]

With that dephleg design even a few drips/sec water flow adjustment will make a huge difference. You're talking 50F inflow water temp and waiting for those small tubes to heat up that spool full of cold water with vapor to allow it to pass the higher vols. Otherwise you're just pushing any vapor thru due to pure force of vapor speed.
Poolguy: how long did you wait after an adjustment to decide it wasn't working?

I used to run 2" plates and you really have to be patient with every adjustment. I'm talking up to 10min, until you figure out your rig. It is such a delicate balance between power input[vapor speed] and cooling flow[dephleg temp]. Remember the plates load more by falling reflux than by rising vapor, unless the falling reflux is very cool, whereby the rising vapor and each plate are extra cooled at each section, and then you're not getting any separation[smearing] and most likely you're flooding..
2" plates can be run but they're not much fun learning on. It's a small system & needs to be run painfully slow. Best to get empty spools & fill em with packing. Keep 1 sight glass on with no plate added on so you can watch the reflux action.

[shadylane]

No wonder the plates don't work right, that's a terrible looking sieve plate design, the holes are too big and there's not enough of them. The downcomer is physically too big and takes up room that could have holes.

[shadylane]

Here is a picture of the lil' fella:

That looks big enough to get the job done.
Just guessing, it will have enough knock down power to handle a 2" packed column @ around 1500w
I'd pull all the plates out and fill the column with packing. Or better yet, buy a SS spool

[ThomasBrewer]

I've never seen a perf plate with a bubble cap as a downcomer vapor lock. Definitely an interesting hybrid.

[MooseMan]

Thanks for all the replies, and sorry that I was not able to chime back in until today.

Then, get some copper scrubby, fill all your empty sections with it and run everything that you've made so far. It's well accepted that plates are for flavour and packed is for neutral, no getting around it.

Doing this will get you closer to the neutral you want, with the limitations you have in that still.

Since neutral is my goal, maybe just dump all the plates and fill the column up with copper scrubbies? Or SPP? After of course addressing the deflag.

Thanks again all. Happy Thanksgiving. So much to be thankful for. Like homedistiller.org!

Yes that's what I'd suggest with neutral as your goal.

Caveat here, you won't get a totally clean neutral at any kind of decent output rate with what you've got, but strip, potty, water down, reflux will get you as near as you can without buying/making a proper reflux setup.

I only have experience of a CCVM for neutral so I can't advise on what to do for an RC above the packing, but someone else might.

[PoolGuy]

If you could an actual figure on your output rate when the plates were loaded would help along with an abv.
What may seem to fast might actually be OK.
Flow rates, abv and power inputs. As much info as possible otherwise we will all still be guessing as to what's happening.

Here are the raw notes from my very first spirit run with the new still "out-of-the-box". This was TPW. Chinese kettle on full bore (no SCR control yet, 1500W I believe). I just kept RC cooling water on full flow the whole time since things were "boiling hard" (I now realize they were flooding) and all the RC cooling that I could muster with this still could not hold it back. There was no way I could achieve full reflux, or even keep the plates from flooding. Rate was about 12 pints in 1-1/2 hours = 1 gallon/hour = 3.8l/hr. Too fast? I think? But I had no practical way of slowing it down with the crappy bang-bang thermostat (now fixed) and ineffective deflegmator.

Later runs had better power control, and were run slower. ABV typically started ~88% and dropped to ~82% into tails. But the thing is I have no control over it. If I set the power to where the plates are properly loaded, I get a large pencil lead rate of product. I can turn the RC water off, or turn it back on full, and see very little if any difference in product rate. The vapor appears to be just shooting through the deflag. If I turn the power down, the plates just sputter.

I am no master by any stretch, but my cuts seem schmeared and my end product is not particularly clean or pleasing. Everything ends up tasting a little "heady" to me, even after resting. But my expectations may be in left field. I am learning.

Poolguy: how long did you wait after an adjustment to decide it wasn't working?

I spend about six hours on my last (5th) spirit run. I was determined to make the dephlegmater "work". Tossed in bed the night before tweaking valves and dials in my brain. I took my time. But your point is well taken.

I'd pull all the plates out and fill the column with packing. Or better yet, buy a SS spool

Yup, that is the plan.

I have ordered a new 2" dephlegmator to match the size of my column. Eight tubes instead of three. Less than $40 US. Two weeks out.

This will hopefully address my RC issues and I will be able to find the mythical nirvana balance.

I have read a lot of great things about SPP here (and a few videos), so I am thinking pull the plates out and fill the column with some sort of SPP. Not sure what is best to get or where to get it. I need to do more research. Then what I am thinking is put a bit of copper mesh in front of each column window opening to keep the SPP out of the window area before adding the SPP. This way I can have a bit of a view of what is going on in the column.

Eh?

Thanks again all for the wonderful and thoughtful advice.

[PoolGuy]

strip, potty, water down, reflux will get you as near as you can without buying/making a proper reflux setup.

What is "potty"?

[MooseMan]

Sorry PoolGuy, I need to stop using slang and shortening words when I'm typing.

I meant to say strip run, then run slowly through the still set up in pot mode (Just the riser, the elbow and the product condenser) then water it down again to below 40% abv, then run again with your sections packed.

[PoolGuy]

There is a LOT of slang and shorthand used on HD. Like HD. The normal Joe reading this would have little idea what folks are talking about.

When I told my wife that I thought "my dephlag was too small" she smiled and kindly said "no honey, it is just right for me".

[Saltbush Bill]

Rate was about 12 pints in 1-1/2 hours = 1 gallon/hour = 3.8l/hr. Too fast?

That's way to fast for a 4 plate 2 inch column.
To give you some idea a lot of people run a 4 plate 4 incher at only about 2 lph.
You need to slow everything down.....take your time.....I wouldn't be surprised if that still will work........you just need to learn what your doing with it.
I would suggest that a good take off rate for that still will be less than 1 lph.........it should also be putting out at 92 % abv for most of the run........if you have everything running right.

[Yummyrum]

I agree Salty .

Poolguy, with a Power controller and a decent deflag , it should be a game changer for you .
But also agree that Packing will do more than plates in that Length .

[MooseMan]

There is a LOT of slang and shorthand used on HD. Like HD. The normal Joe reading this would have little idea what folks are talking about.

When I told my wife that I thought "my dephlag was too small" she smiled and kindly said "no honey, it is just right for me".

Hahahaha!
Actually just laughed out loud!

[haggy]

Poolguy,

Here are posts from SDEngr1 who has successfully run a HooLoo 2" sieve plate column probably like yours. Note that he ran with a 9 - 15% ABV wash in the pot.

Re: Bubble plates in 2 inch column?
Post by SDEngr1 » Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:47 am

I run 2" perforated bubble plates with a single downcomer cap and it works perfectly. I typically pull 92% ABV with all four plates. Typical output when running hearts is around 1 Liter per hour.

Re: Bubble plates in 2 inch column?
Post by SDEngr1 » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:16 pm

My photo importing on this site is non-existent. Search Amazon for Hooloo 22 L still and you will see the setup and plate detail. I believe the sight glass segments are around 7" in height per segment.


Re: Plate Reflux Column Operating Characteristics
Post by SDEngr1 » Tue Oct 18, 2022 4:59 pm

I have run everything between 9 - 15% ABV with no effect. I normally run around 900 to 1100 watts and almost religiously take off 1 L/hr rate.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure, but SDEngr1 probably had the same defleg condenser that you have and it worked.

You had runs with low wines at 40% ABV in the pot. The higher abv will generate more vapor up the column and can more easily lead to flooding, depending on the watts used for heating.

Below are some expected operating ranges for a 2 " sieve plate reflux column. You see that higher ABV in the pot has a lower flooding limit on watts ( KW ) than with a lower ABV in the pot. The information comes from this thread.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88352

I estimate the HooLoo 2" plates at 32 holes at 0.078 in diameter to give about 5.6% hole area, on the low side. Is this what you have? If so, follow up along this line for your 2" sieve plate operating range.

Note that SDEngr1 ran at about 1 KW and 1 L/hr takeoff rate and about 10-15% pot ABV. This is in the range of good operation even with the 5.6 % hole area. You can check your runs on the graphs and see where you fall in the range.

Maybe you can try the plate still again at a lower pot ABV ( 10 -20% ) and at about 800 watts and 0.9 L/hr takeoff rate. if your defleg condenser is not working right then, it is the problem.

haggy

[PoolGuy]

Impressive body of work that you have contributed to HD Haggy. Very useful and educational. I am learning every day. Has anybody here thought of using AI to digest the wealth of information on HD and build a BOT for users to query? Maybe ChatGPT has already done that? Off topic.

I PM-ed SDEngr1. Details to follow, hopefully.

9% ABV wash? That may solve (or prove/disprove) my "dephlag too small" theory, but wouldn't it be pretty inefficient to run this way in real life? Or am I missing something? I'll keep the "lower ABV wash" in the tool bag for the moment.

I estimate the HooLoo 2" plates at 32 holes at 0.078 in diameter to give about 5.6% hole area, on the low side. Is this what you have

My 2" plates have 32 holes measuring 0.082 (best I can measure). So your estimates are pretty solid. My plates (sections) are only 4.5" tall. Total column is 18". SDEngr1 seemed to think his were 7"?

My hope is that the larger 2" dephlag that I have on order will "solve" my problem. Might it backfire? Can my RC be TOO large?

Thanks again for the new breath of fresh air Haggy.

Learning!