Confusion about mashing. Boiling and gelatinization

[Moon_Moon]

Hello,

I've recently started thinking about doing my first sour mash and the info on this forum is confusing me a bit or I don't understand it properly since I'm not a native English speaker.

So the procedure is as such: You boil water, put corn in, and stir until the corn gelatinizes. Here is where my confusion comes from, in the gelatinization chart if I read it properly says that anything over 80C will kill the enzymes. Then there is also mention that if your corn is too clumped or too thick you add amylase in to make it more liquid and then reboil. Does boiling here mean heating it back to 70ish or actually boiling it?

I plan to follow this recipe: Booner's Casual All Corn (Although I'm not sure about the 2nd amylase, I only have 1) but have read more on corn topics for crossreference.

In this recipe, the corn is "cooked" at 180F which is 82C but doesn't this temp kill the enzymes? Is this why he is adding amylase to offset the enzymes of corn he kills(technically it says denature but that's the same right)?

Also at higher temps tannins are released which give a bitter taste.

I plan to start this Saturday and I'm cramming all the knowledge I can get to start the sour mash(technically sweet whisky, sour will be 2nd run). I'm hoping I'll make something good. I reckon I have the rough distilling process down so the next best flavor factor is the fermentation and since I've been eyeballing all my ferments until now I'm pretty sure this is the biggest improvement I can make.

[elbono]

I think your confusion comes from mixing information from different recipes. Follow the Booner's recipe if that's what you want don't use information from other recipes that probably doesn't apply.

Key points:

You need BOTH enzymes! Sebstar alone won't make sugars the yeast can ferment.

Sebstar is good to 190F keep the mash about 185F for an hour or two or more after you put it in.

Sebamyl is good to 150F. Cool the mash to 145F before you add it. It is sensitive to pH (acidity) use citric acid or similar to get it to between pH 2.8 and pH 5.5 or it won't work. Keep the mash close 145F for several hours, overnight is a good plan.

Tannins aren't a problem with all corn, see my first paragraph.

[Moon_Moon]

I see, then I wont be able to follow his recipe at all. I only have alfa-amylase available to me. Seems like I got something very wrong with amylase info. In that case if I abandon amylase all together and go just with cooking and getting less conversion then the chart should apply and I should not go above the temp that will kill the natural enzymes.

I was not following other recipes but was looking into mashing and fermenting while wanting to follow the recipe and that I did look into more of them to see the procedure (what I can do with tools on hand and methods that will be easy for me).

But would you say he didn't care about natural enzymes cause he added amylase and the temp was optimal for the amylase itself, or that the natural enzymes for corn can also be ok at this temp?

[shadylane]

So the procedure is as such: You boil water, put corn in, and stir until the corn gelatinizes.

Ya make a huge batch of gravy.
Sebstar high temp alpha liquifies the gravy when it converts the starch into dextrin.
At a lower temperature, gluco chops the dextrin into fermentable sugar

[Tōtōchtin]

He's confusing malted corn enzymes and bottled enzymes I believe.
Tōtō

[shadylane]

viewtopic.php?t=51458

[NormandieStill]

I see, then I wont be able to follow his recipe at all. I only have alfa-amylase available to me. Seems like I got something very wrong with amylase info. In that case if I abandon amylase all together and go just with cooking and getting less conversion then the chart should apply and I should not go above the temp that will kill the natural enzymes.

Unless your corn is malted it wont have any natural enzymes. And unless you malted it yourself, it's unlikely to be malted. Which means that you either need external enzymes in the form of bottled liquid / powder or some other malted grains (barley being the classic choice). If you choose the latter then you're not making Booner's and you'll need a new recipe. If you choose the former then you need both alpha and gluco amylase. With just alpha, you'll get a thinner porridge, but very few fermentable sugars and a very low yield. You won't be able to wing Booner's Corn without both enzymes. Wait until you've got the other one as well.

[shadylane]

I see, then I wont be able to follow his recipe at all. I only have alfa-amylase available to me.

You will need both high temp alpha and gluco.

[elbono]

I see, then I wont be able to follow his recipe at all. I only have alfa-amylase available to me. Seems like I got something very wrong with amylase info. In that case if I abandon amylase all together and go just with cooking and getting less conversion then the chart should apply and I should not go above the temp that will kill the natural enzymes.

I was not following other recipes but was looking into mashing and fermenting while wanting to follow the recipe and that I did look into more of them to see the procedure (what I can do with tools on hand and methods that will be easy for me).

But would you say he didn't care about natural enzymes cause he added amylase and the temp was optimal for the amylase itself, or that the natural enzymes for corn can also be ok at this temp?

Find a recipe in the tried and true that all the ingredients are available to you. Nchoochs Carolina bourbon only needs corn and malted barley for example.
viewforum.php?f=14
Starting out it's easier that way.

I think the information in other recipes were confusing you, I didn't think you were trying to follow them.

You will need GA enzymes from some where. Malted grains is a normal source.

[Moon_Moon]

Ty for all the info. Yes, I was of the wrong opinion that non-malted corn also has enzymes. After further review, I will switch to "uncle jesse's simple sour mash method". Better to not go down the enzyme path until I get more understanding of this topic since this thing started from me not knowing about the state of enzymes in corn.

Just to clarify and so that I know my line of thinking is correct: If I had malted corn then the temps would have mattered and I should not exceed the temp in the chart, right(this is what im referring to: viewtopic.php?t=16799)?

[shadylane]

Just to clarify and so that I know my line of thinking is correct: If I had malted corn then the temps would have mattered and I should not exceed the temp in the chart, right(this is what im referring to: viewtopic.php?t=16799)?

Malted corn has problems of it's own.
The natural enzymes needs a mash temp of 145 -150ish, but higher temps are needed to gell the starch.

[NormandieStill]

Malted corn has problems of it's own.
The natural enzymes needs a mash temp of 145 -150ish, but higher temps are needed to gell the starch.

Does the malting process not at least partially gel the starch? I thought that was one of the gains when malting corn is that it comes essentially pre-gelled.

[Bradster68]

This is why people say corn is a bitch. IMO all you need is some gluco enzymes (u have the alpha) Boil the shit outta your corn when it cools add gluco. Done.

[Opdog]

I think you are on the right track with the UJSSM to start. Do a few generations of that to get the feel of the process. Then get yourself some Glucoamalyse and try the Boomer’s recipe as written. After you have some good results with that , work your way up to something a little more complex.

Keep using the enzymes but start adding malts for flavor and practice adding them at the correct temperature. It may seem like overkill but it is hugely disappointing to go through all of that work only to fail the starch test. The enzymes help make sure you get good conversation. As you get experience, you will start to work with out them. It takes a while to get the feel of the process.

Make sure that you have the equipment and time to keep the temps where you need them. For smaller batches coolers work fine.

[Homebrewer11777]

UJSSM sounds like a good plan given where you are about learning to mash. You will get a decent product that will get you started learning to run your still while you figure out mashing.

Then work on all grain batches in parallel. If you follow a tried and true recipe from here more or less exactly you will be ok but that means really no substitutions and follow the temperatures and times called for in the recipe. OK to scale up or scale down to match your equipment.

[still_stirrin]

Malted corn has problems of it's own.
The natural enzymes needs a mash temp of 145 -150ish, but higher temps are needed to gell the starch.

Does the malting process not at least partially gel the starch? I thought that was one of the gains when malting corn is that it comes essentially pre-gelled.

Yes, malting the cereal grain does help develop the enzymes that will convert the starch to sugars. It is a part of the lifecycle of the grain from seed to plant and on to seed generation. The enzymes help provide the “food for growth”.

So, if you take the time (and effort) to malt your field corn (whole kernels, not the milled “cracked corn”), it will have some enzymes necessary to reduce the carbs to sugars. However, not all of the sugars developed will be fermentable, so extract efficiency will vary.

Bear in mind that corn, as a cereal grain for brewing, is considered an “adjunct grain”. Malted barley is the primary grain because of its enzymatic power. The corn has a large store of available carbs, but is low in enzymatic potential. Therefore, you still need a good source of enzymes to convert the starches, and malted barley is that (natural grain) source. When adjunct ratios get too high, like the bourbon’s 50% minimum of corn or an “all corn” recipe, additional enzymes will be needed, be-it from malted barley or liquid enzymes.

Beer brewing experience helps us understand the processes of extracting fermentable sugars from these cereal grains, although when making beer for consuming (as a beverage) it is slightly different than when making (distiller’s) beer for distilling into spirits. Since the focus for THIS hobby is maximizing the fermentation potential, we use adjunct grains as a low cost means to increase the potential alcohol as a compromise to the flavor, like brewers beer brewers would exploit in their products.
ss

[Garouda]

To answer this question, let's go back to basics. There are three main ways to make alcohol.
1. based on sugar or molasses to produce a neutral alcohol (Vodka) or Rum, this is the easiest method;
2. based on fermented fruit juice (wine) to make a brandy (Cognac, Calvados), this is the most traditional method;
3. based on cereals to make a beer which will produce Whisky, Whiskey, Bourbon etc., this is the most complicated method.
Traditionally, a beer comes from brewing barley, and sometimes other cereals, such as wheat, to make a white beer. We use malted barley because starch is not fermentable; enzymes are needed to convert it into sugars. I explained the calculation of the diastatic power in another topic.
In a brewery, we classically proceed in four rests. Here’s one example:
Protein rest 15 min, 50 °C (122 °F)
β- saccharification 45 min, 63 °C (145 °F)
α- conversion 30 min, 68.3 °C (155 °F)
Mash Out 10 min77.0 °C (171 °F)
There is another single rest method at 66°C (151°F), this is what we are going to follow here.
The enzymes that interest us here are α-amylases and β-amylases. In brewing, we play on the duration of the rests at one or the other temperature to have a beer that has more body or more alcohol.
In our case, where we use corn, we see a conflict in terms of temperatures, bringing the brew above 77°C completely inhibits the enzymes. However, it is important to gelatinize the corn and boil it to properly disperse the starches in the mash. This will be done in three steps, gelatinize, let cool down and add α-amylases to liquefy everything to avoid scorching, then boil for about 30 minutes. Those who have been to Italy know polenta, a dish obtained from corn flour, this is what we will have, or almost, in our brewing vessel. The role of α-amylases is to liquefy this broth. You can either use part of your malted barley or directly use α-amylases, up to 1 tsp/15lbs. Care should then be taken to allow the mash to cool down below 75°C (167°F) before adding the α-amylases enzymes.
After 30 minutes of boiling, the temperature must be brought back to around 66°C (151°F) and either add the malt from the recipe or gluco amylases (0.2-0.5%) if you want an all-corn recipe, stir now and then, and maintain this temperature for 90 minutes which is the duration of conversion of starches into sugars. We use glucoamylase because you won't find β-amylases and because of its working T°, see the next topic. Then proceed with an iodine test to make sure the conversion process is complete.

[Garouda]

To avoid confusion, I divided my explanation into two parts.
The difficulty caused by Corn (or Rice) is the high gelatinization T° compared to other cereals, e.g. Barley.
In our hobby, what we want to maximize is the alcohol % ABV.
So there is a variation of the above explanation.
First, we need to understand what the enzymes do. Starch is like a polymer, a long chain of individual carbohydrate molecules.
α-amylases break that chain attacking its centre and divide it in smaller chains, but do not produce fermentable sugars, while β-amylases attack the extremities of the shorter starch chains and produce fermentable sugars.
Here is a graph that explains this:

Why do we choose 66°C in the one rest method in beer brewing

From that graph, we can conclude that we could either add α-amylases in the case of an all corn recipe, or add all our malt in the case of an all grains recipe for the corn liquefaction process.
If we look at the graph, we understand that the β-amylases are destroyed by the high T°needed by the α-amylases. Conclusion: we won't get any fermentable sugars.
Here comes the glucoamylase that has an action similar to the β-amylases by liberating single glucose units.
The most interesting characteristic of glucoamylase is a different T° range than β-amylase, that would enable us to use both α-amylase and glucoamylase together...
The ideal T° range of α-amylase is around 70°C(158°F), see graph above.
It's almost the same for glucoamylase...
Look at this graph:

source: Lallemand Brewing

α-amylase breaks the middle of the long starch chains, glucoamylase like β-amylase works only at the ends of the formed smaller chains, but at almost the same T° as α-amylase.
In conclusion, we could hit two birds with one stone and have the liquefaction and saccharification at the same time.

[Garouda]

Yesterday I went on an Australian forum I hadn't visited for a while and discovered they have a library page with some must have books that we can download, like The Compleat Distiller (sic).
About the present topic, I found this book:" The Alcohol Textbook" with an interesting diagram on page 23...

The rest of that chapter is worth reading it too.
There's no need to name that forum as most of the members of this forum are also active on that one...