Running low wines in reflux or pot still?

[CatchingShadePhotos]

Sorry if this has been asked before but after searching forever, I couldn't really find the answer I am looking for so will just ask outright.
I have been distilling a number of years and up until very recently, just ran sugar washes to make neutral spirits that i watered down and then used natural flavourings, herbs, spices or fruits to make the majority of my drinks apart from whiskey's, gins and rums or that kind of drink. For those I used essences. I have always used the turbo 500 reflux still or did so up until now. I am about to embark on my first full grain washes as well as molasses washes for rum. Recently I have started using the Alembic pot still on the T500 and am branching into double distilling, stripping and spirit runs. My first run was from a pear, grape and passionfruit wine I made that didn't turn out that well so decided to run that, along with a few reds that I had that I didn't enjoy and a couple of left over other drink bases I had from previous reflux concoctions. After doing the stripping run and then the spirit run, 20 cuts as it was my first time, after dumping the first 250mls, I now have almost 5 litres of a brandy of sorts aging on charred French oak and second use Irish whiskey oak chips. After mixing the cuts, what I had left I kept as low wines or feints, please correct me of which they are, heads and tails that didn't go into the final hearts that were kept. I also made a vodka using a sugar wash with the addition of oats and sultanas that I did a stripping run before a spirit run, discarding the first 250 mls, down to 40%abv before keeping the tails that I added to the low wines or feints that was left from the wine run. I now have 4.2 litres of 48.2%ABV of the low wines or feints.
I am wondering if I can run them through the reflux condenser to make a neutral spirit, after watering it down to below 40%ABV, and if I do, will it strip the nastier flavours from the spirit or will I still get carry through flavouring from the wash? I know I can keep it for adding to a future stripping run on something else but as most of it was from a wash that I will never repeat, I don't really want to add it to a new grain wash because it will add other flavours that I don't really want.
So, do i run it in reflux mode or do another pot still stripping run? What will give me the best, usable spirit with the least amount of unwanted flavours. Thanks for any suggestions you can make.
CatchingShadePhotos or Greg if your prefer. .

[shadylane]

I am wondering if I can run them through the reflux condenser to make a neutral spirit, after watering it down to below 40%ABV, and if I do, will it strip the nastier flavours from the spirit or will I still get carry through flavouring from the wash?

Go for it.
Some of the good will be lost by diluting and redistilling brandy feints.
But even more of the nastier tails flavor will removed.
40% dilution is for safety, I'd recommend diluting even more.

[shadylane]

I did a stripping run before a spirit run, discarding the first 250 mls,

For making brandy, I think you may have discarded too much on the stripping run.
Much of the flavor and character is hiding in the heads, by discarding that during the stripping run, you lost it.

[GrumbleStill]

That was one helluva paragraph Greg! Apologies - the answer will be a bit shorter

1. Feints. Low wines are what you get after the stripping run.
2. Yes - but no guarantees as to how good they will be…
3. Run them through your Reflux column to clean them up for a neutral. Some people save a couple of batches worth to do a feints run. Some add some sodium carbonate or bicarbonate to the feints first to help clean them up a bit.

Cheers and have fun.

Posted same time as Shady - whose advice is worth about 1000 times more valuable than mine.

Cheers

[CatchingShadePhotos]

I did a stripping run before a spirit run, discarding the first 250 mls,

For making brandy, I think you may have discarded too much on the stripping run.
Much of the flavor and character is hiding in the heads, by discarding that during the stripping run, you lost it.

I discarded the 250 mls during the spirit run, not the stripping run.

[still_stirrin]

Greg, you’re obviously a newbie here so I’ll try to explain a couple of things which may help you understand not only the processes, but also our nomenclature.

When you do a “stripping run”, you strip mostly water from your wash (ie - the ferment product). Well actually to be more correct, you strip alcohols and other volatiles from the water in the wash. And what you collect at the spout (what’s stripped from the wash) is considered “low wines”, because it has been distilled ONCE through a potstill.

If you use a reflux still instead of a potstill to do the strip run, it could (theoretically) be considered a “spirit run”, if you make cuts on the product from the 1st distillation. That is because the reflux column (complete with packing or plates and a reflux condenser) will generate multiple distillations within the column before the product progresses to the product condenser (and outlet).

Most hobbyists here would promote the double distillation protocol (strip + spirit run) to produce a better quality product. And when doing this method, cuts are made from the collection of the spirit run, not on the strip run, although some would advocate a small foreshots removal from the strip run to reduce these highly volatile constituents from the low wines. I wouldn’t recommend this “tool” unless you know what you’re doing, that is, you have experience with making cuts properly and can identify the foreshots from the rest of your low wines collection.

If, on the other hand, you only use a reflux column for your distillation(s), you could skip the strip runs and collect the product from your first pass through your still. Again, I don’t advocate this, especially if you’re relatively inexperienced at distilling. So, I prefer to strip using a potstill and then reflux using a reflux column, if you’re trying to get a high purity product. Otherwise, the potstill can be used quite successfully for full flavored spirits using the double distillation protocol. Likewise, using a potstill + thumper will help with full flavored spirit distillations. However, I still recommend the strip + spirit run protocol if you plan to use your thumper on the spirit run pass.

Since you’ve come from the T500 background, which is a good tool for producing high purity, neutral spirits, using the Alembic top for your boiler will function well as a potstill, netting a good full flavored spirit, especially when stripped through the Alembic. Whiskey, brandy, and rum all benefit from this process and you likely won’t need to use “flavor essences” to the products offstill (after proper cuts).

Of note, there are several T500 experienced users on the website and many, many threads which discuss the tool and how to maximize its performance. Search for the threads and settle in and read a while. It’ll help you a lot.

OK, long post here (sorry). I hope my discussion has helped you understand a little better and challenge you to move forward in this hobby.
ss

[OlympicMtDoo]

Nice answer SS a great explanation!! OMD

[CatchingShadePhotos]

Greg, you’re obviously a newbie here so I’ll try to explain a couple of things which may help you understand not only the processes, but also our nomenclature.

Thanks SS for the explanation.
I did do the stripping run first and then the spirit run, maybe I did not explain that properly. The first 250 ml of the spirit run was discarded and will be used for cleaning. Then I did 20 cuts and blended the last of the heads and fist of the tails with the hearts and now have that aging on charred French oak and second use Irish whiskey, made with essences and neutral spirits, oak. The rest of the heads and tails I kept.
The second distillation was from a sugar wash with oats and sultanas. That I also did a stripping run on, followed by a spirit run, discarding the first 250ml from the spirit run and then I kept the rest down to 40% ABV, as a Vodka and added the remaining 40% down to just under 20% ABV to the heads and tails of the first distillation.
I was just trying to find out the best way to get a neutral spirit from the mixed heads, tails and tails from the two runs or what would be suggested as the best way to get the usable alcohol from that. I Was looking for a neutral spirit from what I had as I did not think that doing another spirit run would give a pleasant tasting drink but wanted confirmation that it would be better making a neutral spirit using the reflux condenser over the alembic, which I thought would strip flavour if I went that way.
Yes, you are right, I am new around here but not a complete novice to the art of distilling, though, when it comes to non sugar wash mashes, I am and thjat is where I am headed with the hobby. I want to make more traditional style drinks using grain mashes and other fermentations instead of just using sugar. My next big thing will be to upgrade the still to one that holds more liquid and has plates.

[still_stirrin]

… The second distillation was from a sugar wash with oats and sultanas. That I also did a stripping run on, followed by a spirit run, discarding the first 250ml from the spirit run and then,

… I kept the rest down to 40% ABV, as a Vodka and added the remaining 40% down to just under 20% ABV to the heads and tails of the first distillation.

Well, it wasn’t a “vodka”, because by definition that must be distilled to at least 95%ABV, And that means, the whole collection, not just the highest you get off the spout. So, you were a long way away from a vodka, and even a neutral spirit. In order to get this high of purity, you NEED a reflux still, and one capable of a high reflux ratio. That will require a tall PACKED column with a reflux condenser above the column.

Incidentally, it is not uncommon to try to strip the remaining alcohol from an all feints run regardless of the source of the feints (what various spirit runs went into making the feints). Sugar washes and grain ferments are often the most common source because rum feints are often LOADED with flavor congeners.

… I was just trying to find out the best way to get a neutral spirit from the mixed heads, tails and tails from the two runs or what would be suggested as the best way to get the usable alcohol from that. I Was looking for a neutral spirit from what I had as I did not think that doing another spirit run would give a pleasant tasting drink but wanted confirmation that it would be better making a neutral spirit using the reflux condenser over the alembic, which I thought would strip flavour if I went that way.

Ironically, your “confirmation” is imbedded in the volumes of reading you’ve skipped over. Neutral runs from feints are discussed at length throughout these forums. You just need to read more.

… Yes, you are right, I am new around here but not a complete novice to the art of distilling, though, when it comes to non sugar wash mashes, I am and thjat is where I am headed with the hobby. I want to make more traditional style drinks using grain mashes and other fermentations instead of just using sugar. My next big thing will be to upgrade the still to one that holds more liquid and has plates.

So, my hint to you is, “read a lot more (for understanding) before buying anything”. As I’ve noted already, a plated column (flute) is NOT the best tool to produce neutral spirits. A flute is ideal for “one & done” full flavored spirits like rum and brandy and most whiskeys. If you’re trying to do that, then OK. But, it is a vary narrow product line.

What would be wiser would be a potstill head and a packed column with a reflux head, beit a CM, LM, or VM. And to add diversity to your potstill, you could add a thumper to enhance your flavorful spirits lineup. And the reflux column would be capable of very high purity spirits, including vodka, if that’s your true goal.

I wouldn’t BUY a flute for a 1/2 barrel keg unless you really plan to produce a LOT of flavored spirits. And that would be on the “fringe” of hobby distilling. A good potstill and thumper will work just fine for most of the hobbyist’s goals.

So, I’ve read your posts and I think I understand what your objectives are. Now, I want you to read and absorb my replies, as well as those from other experienced distillers here. Settle down and read a while…it’ll help you make wise decisions going forward.
ss

[CatchingShadePhotos]

… The second distillation was from a sugar wash with oats and sultanas. That I also did a stripping run on, followed by a spirit run, discarding the first 250ml from the spirit run and then,

… I kept the rest down to 40% ABV, as a Vodka and added the remaining 40% down to just under 20% ABV to the heads and tails of the first distillation.

Well, it wasn’t a “vodka”, because by definition that must be distilled to at least 95%ABV, And that means, the whole collection, not just the highest you get off the spout. So, you were a long way away from a vodka, and even a neutral spirit. In order to get this high of purity, you NEED a reflux still, and one capable of a high reflux ratio. That will require a tall PACKED column with a reflux condenser above the column.

Incidentally, it is not uncommon to try to strip the remaining alcohol from an all feints run regardless of the source of the feints (what various spirit runs went into making the feints). Sugar washes and grain ferments are often the most common source because rum feints are often LOADED with flavor congeners.

… I was just trying to find out the best way to get a neutral spirit from the mixed heads, tails and tails from the two runs or what would be suggested as the best way to get the usable alcohol from that. I Was looking for a neutral spirit from what I had as I did not think that doing another spirit run would give a pleasant tasting drink but wanted confirmation that it would be better making a neutral spirit using the reflux condenser over the alembic, which I thought would strip flavour if I went that way.

Ironically, your “confirmation” is imbedded in the volumes of reading you’ve skipped over. Neutral runs from feints are discussed at length throughout these forums. You just need to read more.

… Yes, you are right, I am new around here but not a complete novice to the art of distilling, though, when it comes to non sugar wash mashes, I am and thjat is where I am headed with the hobby. I want to make more traditional style drinks using grain mashes and other fermentations instead of just using sugar. My next big thing will be to upgrade the still to one that holds more liquid and has plates.

So, my hint to you is, “read a lot more (for understanding) before buying anything”. As I’ve noted already, a plated column (flute) is NOT the best tool to produce neutral spirits. A flute is ideal for “one & done” full flavored spirits like rum and brandy and most whiskeys. If you’re trying to do that, then OK. But, it is a vary narrow product line.

What would be wiser would be a potstill head and a packed column with a reflux head, beit a CM, LM, or VM. And to add diversity to your potstill, you could add a thumper to enhance your flavorful spirits lineup. And the reflux column would be capable of very high purity spirits, including vodka, if that’s your true goal.

I wouldn’t BUY a flute for a 1/2 barrel keg unless you really plan to produce a LOT of flavored spirits. And that would be on the “fringe” of hobby distilling. A good potstill and thumper will work just fine for most of the hobbyist’s goals.

So, I’ve read your posts and I think I understand what your objectives are. Now, I want you to read and absorb my replies, as well as those from other experienced distillers here. Settle down and read a while…it’ll help you make wise decisions going forward.
ss

Thanks.
I ran the heads and tails through my reflux condenser and ended up with 2 litres @ 92% ABV, which I have watered down, used spring water, to 50% ABV. I will run that through a carbon filter before flavouring and using it for making different drinks. I also dumped the first 160 ml, just to be safe. Wasn't sure if I needed to considering it had had it done already at the start of the two stripping runs but decided to be safe and did it anyway.

[NormandieStill]

I ran the heads and tails through my reflux condenser and ended up with 2 litres @ 92% ABV, which I have watered down, used spring water, to 50% ABV. I will run that through a carbon filter before flavouring and using it for making different drinks. I also dumped the first 160 ml, just to be safe. Wasn't sure if I needed to considering it had had it done already at the start of the two stripping runs but decided to be safe and did it anyway.

Reading this I don't see that you're making cuts. A generous fires cut perhaps but then you sound to be keeping everything. On my cleanest neutral runs, with good fermentation and resulted low wines, I expect to dump a good few jars at either end if I want a clean drink. Your refluxing should be concentrating those bad flavours at either end leaving some good clean hearts that don't need carbon filtering.