Scorching priorities

[fiery creations]

I know a lot of factors go into scorching such as unfermented sugars, non cleared wash, wrong element type, and throwing too much power into the elements. How would you guys rank the issues in order of importance? I haven't scorched anything since getting my new set up, but couldn't stand another 3 hour heat up to strip so I started pushing it a bit. I ended up with a tiny bit of scorch on the elements, but I can't really smell or taste it so I think I'm good.

I'm wondering what's more likely to scorch out of all the factors. This wash stalled at 1.012 and wasn't dry. It was what I'd call medium cleared (yeast mostly settled out and I racked it, but it was crystal clear like it would be in another week or two). I was heating up with 1300 watts in each element, and this time I put a hair over 2000 into each. Previously I would crank 5000 watts into each element until the end. This time I did it as soon as the risk of puking had subsided.

Was my minor scorching more likely due to the higher power on heat up? Once it's boiling, can you pretty much throw anything at it or is there still a limit?

My last mash stalled out around the same and didn't scorch, but I did heat it up for 3+ hours. So I'm guessing unfermented sugars isn't the likely culprit?


Curious what people have found they can and cannot get away with.
Thanks.

[Demy]

Excessive heating is certainly the main cause but it could be multiple factors together... I had a burn when I distilled fruit pulp (before having the steam jacket) and I can tell you that the burn smell is terrible and doesn't work away not even with many distillations.

[fiery creations]

Yeah it is. I scorched at least 100 gallons one my first attempt at AG. Couldn’t get the stench out of my carboys.

Now I seem to be on the edge of it again. Not sure if it’s the heat up or running it harder once going. I can slow down on one but if I do both one strip will be an all day event.


Wish I would have changed only one variable at a time

[fiery creations]

$@%#ing @&$*!!!!!

Heated up with lower power and waited longer to crank it up since the last one showed a tiny bit of scorch. This time the entire element was black. Do I really fricken have to spend an entire day to do one strip or ruin it all.

[shadylane]

Sound like you have been flirting with disaster.
It's time to start looking at steam injection.

[fiery creations]

Sound like you have been flirting with disaster.
It's time to start looking at steam injection.

I looked at it last night. Couple grand for a jacketed boiler many more grand for a steam generator.

is it possible to have an element pretty toasted with scorch but not have ruined the product? Last time it seemed rancid once I smelled the difference but now it doesn’t seem terrible and I’m tempted to run the low wines.

The real scary part is now realizing just how much mash it will take to do true triple distilled Irish pot whiskey and facing the possibility of ruining all of it from one or two
Bad strips

[shadylane]

Sound like you have been flirting with disaster.
It's time to start looking at steam injection.

I looked at it last night. Couple grand for a jacketed boiler many more grand for a steam generator.

Didn't mean a jacked boiler, what I was thinking is use the boiler you already have to make the steam and buy or build a thumper. The steam injection also works excellent for cooking the mash.

[zach]

Here is a pretty picture from TB of a steam rig.

viewtopic.php?t=81504

I have a similar unit, except I have a 23 gallon milk can for the thumper. I fill my keg with water to generate steam. No chance to scorch. I strip with propane burner. A 15 gallon charge in the thumper takes 90 minutes to strip at most.

[Bolverk]

While excess sugar and/or starch in the beer can lead to scorching, 1.012 should be fine, so it sounds like you're just running too much heat.

Are you using ulwd elements?

I looked at it last night. Couple grand for a jacketed boiler many more grand for a steam generator.

Hate to toot my own horn on my thread, but start towards the bottom of page 6 of this thread on how I build my external steam generator. viewtopic.php?t=92012 I've got approx $600 into it.

It doesn't have to be complicated to get into steam.
Just a boiler full of water and a thumper for your beer, and you can strip pretty much any solid laden beer with ease.

Check out the steam mashing and distilling sub forum.
viewforum.php?f=92

[NormandieStill]

I was maybe lucky, but I only recently switched to steam, and that was so I could get those last few litres of alcohol and flavour out of my ferments. Until then I let them settle out (or cold crashed in the winter) and siphoned off the clear. Then I poured the gloop into a BIAB bag (in small portions) and squeezed. Te resulting cloudy mess then got a good few days to settle out and I again siphoned off the clear. All the clear went inot the boiler with a 4.5kW element with which I stripped at around 2.5-3kW (because my condenser couldn't handle any more). Never had a scorch!

If you've got enough stuff floating around in your wash to burn onto the elements, then either you're not letting the ferments clear properly, or you're doing somethign that leaves them hanging with a lot of dissolved sugars.

...or your element is running a super-high watt density. But even then, it can only scorch if you're putting scorchable stuff into the boiler. Try letting your ferments run longer so that they settle out. If you want to run more, then start more ferments rather than trying to run them too soon.

[fiery creations]

Wow. Those steam set up are incredible and make me want to build some new stuff already. Thanks for the links.


Is scorching more likely from the heat up or max power input during the run?

Is there a sure way to test the distillate? I don’t trust my nose. The element was so bad I feel like the product is ruined. But I can’t tell anything crazy off with it. I’d like to throw it with my boiler charge for a spirit run but I’m worried it’s going to ruin it all and I can’t tell.

[Oystercracker123]

The sure way is gas chromatography. You’d have to make the determination on if it’s worth it and if so figure out who to send a sample to. The bigger question you asked is the difference between knowledge and perception. On that front sometimes ignorance is bliss. Steam fixes most of if not all your scorching issues.

[fiery creations]

The sure way is gas chromatography. You’d have to make the determination on if it’s worth it and if so figure out who to send a sample to. The bigger question you asked is the difference between knowledge and perception. On that front sometimes ignorance is bliss. Steam fixes most of if not all your scorching issues.

I dont have access to one anymore and I’m sure not paying to send it off.


Is the conventional knowledge that any time an element looks this bad, then the distillate should be chucked?

I don’t want to chuck 6 gallons of AG low wines, but I also don’t want to taint the 18 for sure good gallons I have, along with future batches from recycled feints.

[Oystercracker123]

I think you already made your determination. At least that’s my read based off your earlier posts where you dumped ferments because of doubt. If you have doubt, just keep them separate.

[Twisted Brick]

I was maybe lucky, but I only recently switched to steam, and that was so I could get those last few litres of alcohol and flavour out of my ferments. Until then I let them settle out (or cold crashed in the winter) and siphoned off the clear. Then I poured the gloop into a BIAB bag (in small portions) and squeezed. Te resulting cloudy mess then got a good few days to settle out and I again siphoned off the clear. All the clear went inot the boiler with a 4.5kW element with which I stripped at around 2.5-3kW (because my condenser couldn't handle any more). Never had a scorch!

+1

For me, clearing (twice) is the key to produce the cleanest (no hints of yeast in aged spirit). Secondary is a 60-75min heat-up (I have yet to experience a puke). My keg is heated directly with a NG burner that works great on all AG washes and distillations except rye. Rye mashes and strips require the steam rig.

Like Bolverk says, steam doesn't have to be complicated (or expensive if you build it yourself).

[ozark_jake]

I had a couple batches in which the element ended up looking like that but the batches were fine and the resulting whiskey is quite good with no hint of scorch. I also had one real scorch of a rye batch. It was absolutely unmistakable and I dumped it immediately.

In any case, I've since let all my ferments run out at least a week, with no other significant change in process, and I've had no more of any of the above. My element always ends up as clean as it began.

[Bolverk]

Is there a sure way to test the distillate? I don’t trust my nose. The element was so bad I feel like the product is ruined. But I can’t tell anything crazy off with it. I’d like to throw it with my boiler charge for a spirit run but I’m worried it’s going to ruin it all and I can’t tell.

Watering down a small sample of the distillate to the point we're you can taste with without the alcohol burn is probably going to be the best/easiest way to really taste what's going on in there... at least until your palate adjusts to drinking high proof spirits. After a while, your tongue will get used to it.

[zach]

The element shown could be replaced with a unit with a lower watt density if it fits in your boiler.

There are longer wavy units, that might have twice the surface area, which will operate with a lower surface temperature.

It looks like this one is 350 mm long and produces 5.5 kw at 240 v.

61R5izrYUyL._SX342_.jpg (10.84 KiB) Viewed 1801 times

[still_stirrin]

Is scorching more likely from the heat up or max power input during the run?

During the heat up, as the liquid is approaching its boiling point. Scorching is organic materials “burning” as a result of the concentrated temperature of the heat source, be it an electric element or the bottom of the boiler when direct fired.

Once the boiler charge is boiling, the heat transfer is diffused in the liquid as the coalesced bubbles rise to the surface, thereby creating movement of the molecules.

If your element is short, a longer element would be beneficial. In other words, lower watt density elements, those with more surface area relative to the power dissipation, will have a less likely propensity to cause scorching.

Let me explain: the surface of the element can be incredibly hot depending on the power input. If the energy is spread over a larger surface, the energy will transfer to the liquid at a lower temperature (although it will still be hot enough to cause the liquid to boil). Ultra low watt density (ULWD) elements have long resistive heat conduction surfaces; those wavy and return bend elements, for example. So, even though these elements typically are rated for higher power (4.5kW and 5.5kW), they have better heat (energy) transmission to the fluid in which they are immersed.

As an example, I run two 4.5kW elements on 120VAC such that the watt density is significantly less than a single element on 240VAC would produce. I have never had a wash scorch and I have run many, many uncleared washes through the boiler. The disadvantage to the lower voltage input, and the corresponding lower power consumption and heat transfer, is the heat up time is longer. But, I can bring 12 gallons of 8 to 10%ABV mash to a boil in 90 to 100 minutes.

Steam injection is also a great method to eliminate the risk to scorching because the temperature of the saturated steam is never above 100*C/212*F. And saturated steam enthalpy has a lot of energy to transfer to the wash. However, always be careful with stream, especially when pressurized because of that energy. It’ll give you extreme burns if you’re exposed.

Is there a sure way to test the distillate? I don’t trust my nose. The element was so bad I feel like the product is ruined. But I can’t tell anything crazy off with it. I’d like to throw it with my boiler charge for a spirit run but I’m worried it’s going to ruin it all and I can’t tell.

Usually, you’ll notice a scorched product by the distinct “charcoal” smell. But, you can also taste it too. If the scorch is minimal enough that you can’t smell or taste it, chances are you’re OK to finish the run and put it on wood to age.

But, often the burned product will reveal itself later, after aging, because aging will reduce the congeners and other volatile components that may mask the scorch qualities in the young spirit.

Unfortunately, rerunning a scorched product won’t reduce it’s character. But, you can blend it with other (unscorched) product to help minimize the undesirable qualitiy.
ss

[fiery creations]

I had a couple batches in which the element ended up looking like that but the batches were fine and the resulting whiskey is quite good with no hint of scorch. I also had one real scorch of a rye batch. It was absolutely unmistakable and I dumped it immediately.

In any case, I've since let all my ferments run out at least a week, with no other significant change in process, and I've had no more of any of the above. My element always ends up as clean as it began.

Thanks for this. I’m cautious because the first time this kept happening I thought it wasn’t present. But then later it was unmistakable and I couldn’t get the stench out of my carboy. I feel like I would be able to detect it more if it was ruined.


Thanks for the replies. For sure gonna look into steam. I ran the last strip like I did the first one for the day and the elements came out clean. My scorched run still had over an hour and a half heat up.


My mash had been sitting for two weeks.


Thanks SS. If there’s a chance that it’s being masked and won’t come out until later, I think I’m just going to suck it up and dump this. Keep going back-and-forth, but I guess it’s better safe than sorry and ruining everything.

[Bee]

Use a propane burner and put the worries of scorches behind you.

[fiery creations]

Use a propane burner and put the worries of scorches behind you.

Is the chance reduced or completely eliminated? I have a heavy duty one, but Still not sure it could support a 26 gallon boiler full of mash.


Decided a plan. Since I’m doing the Middleton process for triple distilling I’m running half my low wines I know are good separately from the other half of 50/50 good and possible scorch. Since I’m essentially doing a spirit run I figure the for sure way to find out is smell and taste the hearts from each. Then mix back if ok, and carry on with the third distillation.

[shadylane]

Is the conventional knowledge that any time an element looks this bad, then the distillate should be chucked?

IMG_0199.jpeg

I don’t want to chuck 6 gallons of AG low wines, but I also don’t want to taint the 18 for sure good gallons I have, along with future batches from recycled feints.

Don't chuck it.
Set the 6 gallons aside and run it through a packed column.
In the future when temped to turn the power up, take a shot of the booze for a reminder why scorching is bad.

[fiery creations]

I’m not. I did a spirit run on the half I know is good and it smells amazing. Tomorrow I’m doing a spirit run on the questionable stuff.

Once I have good fractions, if they smell similar side-by-side, I will mix them back together.


Also going to see about getting my old two set ups back from a friend. Hate to be an Indian giver, but man do I regret giving them away. That’s half a steam set up or propane stripper.


Sure would be nice to be able to distill on the grain even if it is half the capacity

[fiery creations]

Glad I didn't throw it out. I don't know how, but it seems like even though the element was roasted with scorch the distillate is the same as the non scorched stuff.

[Bee]

Use a propane burner and put the worries of scorches behind you.

Is the chance reduced or completely eliminated? I have a heavy duty one, but Still not sure it could support a 26 gallon boiler full of mash.

I don't press my luck by distilling on-grain, but I don't worry about a few chunks or a little slurry either. I don't clear the wash, I just wait for it to finish fermenting.
The second stripping run is pretty cloudy, since most of this wash has been squeezed out of the mash using a paint straining bag.

[bilgriss]

If using a low density element, even starchy ferments can be stripped. But I've found it's a really good idea to heat slowly and wait until reaching a boil to really crank it up for a strip. Adds some time to takeoff, but a lot less time than having to chuck a batch.

[fiery creations]

If no amount of power will scorch once boiling, I’m surprised 2 extra amps caused it to scorch. But I guess I found the limit of heat up. Glad I opted for two elements to spread it out or it would take FOREVER to heat up.


Something else I was thinking about. Is scorch really from particulates settling on the elements? I hear people say to stir on heat up or make sure to pour into the boiler to shake things up.

If that was the case I wouldn't expect my elements to have scorched crap on the underside like it does. And if that’s so, wouldn’t stirring and shaking just cause more particulates to interact with the hot element during heat up? I’d almost think siphoning in carefully and not messing with it would be better. Let what tiny bit settles land and scorch minimally compared to a lot more.

Is this way off track and not how it works?

[Yummyrum]

Most commercial boilers seem to have an agitator ( rotating blade) in them .
My thinking is that the best approach is to keep the liquid constantly moving past the element right from the start so that the heat is transferred from element to beer , but is never in contact long enough to cause a particle in the beer to dry out . Once a particle dries out next to the element , it creates an area of insulation that makes it harder to transfer the heat . And then scorching begins .

It’s like making custard , you have to keep stirring it or it quickly sticks to the bottom of the saucepan and burns .

[fiery creations]

Most commercial boilers seem to have an agitator ( rotating blade) in them .
My thinking is that the best approach is to keep the liquid constantly moving past the element right from the start so that the heat is transferred from element to beer , but is never in contact long enough to cause a particle in the beer to dry out . Once a particle dries out next to the element , it creates an area of insulation that makes it harder to transfer the heat . And then scorching begins .

It’s like making custard , you have to keep stirring it or it quickly sticks to the bottom of the saucepan and burns .

Ahh that makes sense. I got my old keg pot still back so I can start looking into copying that steam set up.