All grain mashing for distillation

[PalCabral]

Hi and I hope you're having a great Sunday.

I have been doing homebrewing beer for quite some time but my experience when it comes to distilling is only with sugar washes and wine from grapes. I am planning my first all grain moonshine and I realize the mashing process is somewhat different. The big difference is of course that the beer we're making is for distilling and not a beer for consumption, so mashing is in principal only an activity to leach out as much fermentable sugas as possible from the grains. Another big difference is that there's no mash out step where the enzymes are killed by resting the wort at 77-78C (170F) before the boil.

So how do we know when the mashing is complete? Only by iodine testing the wort or by checking the gracity of it? In an mash bill containing malts, how long would you be you be doing the Saccharification rest? Are you constantly checking if the conversion is done or are going by your experience?

[Twisted Brick]

Application of iodine and measuring the gravity are the benchmark tests but only a partial indicator of 'completeness' since there is a probability of unconverted starches hiding beneath the top layer of 'clear' in the converted mash. The causes come from larger grain granules that haven't had time to gel, insufficient mash time and/or temperature. Fortunately, with proper pH control, enzymes continue to work throughout the ferment to do their job whereupon tasting the fermented wash for 'dryness' as well as taking a final gravity reading indicate whether or not the ferment is complete.

Distillers who prefer the convenience of using YLAY won't have this set of measurements nor the associated controls needed to troubleshoot problems.

Experience will teach you when your grain has visibly gelled and converted. Some members check their temps and pH religiously throughout the mash and ferment. For me, SG and FG are the norm and experience (ie: pH drop from grain) lets me know all is going according to plan. Using practiced processes it (almost) always does.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Well, and to follow up on the previous speaker. It all depends on what exactly you are about to mash. For example, some Scots do kick their "beer" through several temperature rests.

[PalCabral]

Application of iodine and measuring the gravity are the benchmark tests but only a partial indicator of 'completeness' since there is a probability of unconverted starches hiding beneath the top layer of 'clear' in the converted mash. The causes come from larger grain granules that haven't had time to gel, insufficient mash time and/or temperature. Fortunately, with proper pH control, enzymes continue to work throughout the ferment to do their job whereupon tasting the fermented wash for 'dryness' as well as taking a final gravity reading indicate whether or not the ferment is complete.

Distillers who prefer the convenience of using YLAY won't have this set of measurements nor the associated controls needed to troubleshoot problems.

Experience will teach you when your grain has visibly gelled and converted. Some members check their temps and pH religiously throughout the mash and ferment. For me, SG and FG are the norm and experience (ie: pH drop from grain) lets me know all is going according to plan. Using practiced processes it (almost) always does.

Thanks, TB. When I am brewing a beer of an FG of 1.020 it's not a bad gravity necessarily, but for distillation it is poor (generally). This change of mindset is throwing me. Thanks for your input!

[PalCabral]

Well, and to follow up on the previous speaker. It all depends on what exactly you are about to mash. For example, some Scots do kick their "beer" through several temperature rests.

The "kicking" will most likely be me! The flow of mashing for beer is going "up" temperature wise, but for distillation it is going the opposite way. Having residue sugars in the mash is wanted for beers but not for spirits. Well, not necessarily - I am sure there are differences. But for me it's a mindset difference when mashing. How would the expected result impact the process? I'd love to hear you thought on this, Vlaga, You are the one who thinks outside the box!

[VLAGAVULVIN]

The "kicking" will most likely be me! The flow of mashing for beer is going "up" temperature wise, but for distillation it is going the opposite way. Having residue sugars in the mash is wanted for beers but not for spirits. Well, not necessarily - I am sure there are differences. But for me it's a mindset difference when mashing. How would the expected result impact the process? I'd love to hear you thought on this, Vlaga, You are the one who thinks outside the box!

To begin with, it would be nice to decide: where do we want to go kicking?

Next, I'm no expert either inside or outside the box. But I could give you some mindset popcorn about how "oh, those Russians" do.

Well, the greedy ones do it on the grain. Even if they wanna get kind of Scotch Classics. Say, start at 65C and go "naturally" down to 62C (no need to explain all those alpha- and beta- things, right?). A couple of hours at least. Next, never mash-out: let the enzymes sit alive all fermentation long. Contamination? Different stupidity levels as methods to avoid it, including antibiotics. Or sourmash (on backset). Or lysozyme. Excessive esters and fusels? Who cares: a reflux column will fix everything. Or a barrel. Or a lucky break. Or acts of Odin and tricks of Loki. These guys are also ready to add fungi enzymes so that the yeast could eat everything including the husks, lol. Ten to fifteen percent by volume is no problem.

There are also those who go in for Scotch or Irish by making a clear wort and not the porridge mash. They care of their pH and go through temps of 65-62-72-78 (if there is rye and/or oats, also a beta-glucan rest supposed at the beginning). They think of the yeast type the same time they think of the desirable profile. They use or don't use lactic bacteria, depending on their initial plan. And they care of the temperature and period of fermentation. The ready ferment is rarely stronger than 7-8% AbV.

So, where do you want to go today?

[PalCabral]

The "kicking" will most likely be me! The flow of mashing for beer is going "up" temperature wise, but for distillation it is going the opposite way. Having residue sugars in the mash is wanted for beers but not for spirits. Well, not necessarily - I am sure there are differences. But for me it's a mindset difference when mashing. How would the expected result impact the process? I'd love to hear you thought on this, Vlaga, You are the one who thinks outside the box!

To begin with, it would be nice to decide: where do we want to go kicking?

Next, I'm no expert either inside or outside the box. But I could give you some mindset popcorn about how "oh, those Russians" do.

Well, the greedy ones do it on the grain. Even if they wanna get kind of Scotch Classics. Say, start at 65C and go "naturally" down to 62C (no need to explain all those alpha- and beta- things, right?). A couple of hours at least. Next, never mash-out: let the enzymes sit alive all fermentation long. Contamination? Different stupidity levels as methods to avoid it, including antibiotics. Or sourmash (on backset). Or lysozyme. Excessive esters and fusels? Who cares: a reflux column will fix everything. Or a barrel. Or a lucky break. Or acts of Odin and tricks of Loki. These guys are also ready to add fungi enzymes so that the yeast could eat everything including the husks, lol. Ten to fifteen percent by volume is no problem.

There are also those who go in for Scotch or Irish by making a clear wort and not the porridge mash. They care of their pH and go through temps of 65-62-72-78 (if there is rye and/or oats, also a beta-glucan rest supposed at the beginning). They think of the yeast type the same time they think of the desirable profile. They use or don't use lactic bacteria, depending on their initial plan. And they care of the temperature and period of fermentation. The ready ferment is rarely stronger than 7-8% AbV.

So, where do you want to go today?

Love it, Vlaga! You provide the best insights!

I am not after ABV as much as I am after yield. If the mash ends at the SG of 1.085 so be it. But if the FG is in 1.020 I would be a sorry brewer if I was making beer and distraught if I am making spirits. I can put any mash together, nothing hold me back, but if the FG is iffy I will lose yield. Flavour might still be gold, though. The ying and yang.

[Coyote]

You should read more before you proceed.

Coyote

[VLAGAVULVIN]

If the mash ends at the SG of 1.085 so be it. But if the FG is in 1.020 I would be a sorry brewer if I was making beer and distraught if I am making spirits.

If you still have a brewer's firmware in your brain then just think about mashing a dry strong ale without hops.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Well, yeah... if you wanna go allgrain on mostly unfermented things (like corn or rye)...



then it's the best vid I have ever watched about the mashing of it.