So much for sugarheads..

[Steve Broady]

I’m a fan of doing sugarheads on spent grain. It just seems like a cheap way to make some tasty booze, plus I know I would benefit from the experience and skill gained. Recently, a friend commented that corn is cheaper than sugar, which I had a hard time believing. After all, I can get a 25 lb bag of sugar at Walmart for not much money. My wife bought one the other day, and she said it was roughly $15 ish.

Coincidentally, I just bought a 50 lb bag of feed corn at Tractor Supply, for $10.79. Doing the math, after mashing and converting the corn it’s basically half the price of raw sugar. Of course you have the added cost of energy and enzymes, but that doesn’t come close to doubling the price.

So much for making sugarheads! If the goal is cheap booze, I’ll be using corn. The only real advantages that sugar has seem to be convenience and a total lack of flavor.

I guess I need to get better at mashing corn!

[jonnys_spirit]

And while you’re at it you might as well throw in some specialty and other malts and make bourbon or maybe a few loaves of dense discount day-old dark rye bread if the bakery has some.

Cheers,
-jonny

[Steve Broady]

Just running the numbers, a basic corn and malted barley bourbon mash bill is still way cheaper than a sugarhead. Can somebody please explain why I’ve been doing this the expensive way so this time? I feel a bit dumb now.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

That's an interesting observation, Steve. I have a royal decree from the queen to do more panela rum before anything else, but an all corn batch sounds kinda fun to try. Probably close to what my PawPaw Gene called "corn squezzins". I'm not sure of where it came from, but he always had it around.

Seems like a logical next newbie step too, not a lot invested if I screw it up.

Rusty

[Steve Broady]

Speaking of rum, I’ve done a few blends of white sugar and blackstrap molasses. This has me wondering about doing that but with corn instead. Anybody down south knows how well cornbread and molasses go together..

[Bolverk]

Speaking of rum, I’ve done a few blends of white sugar and blackstrap molasses. This has me wondering about doing that but with corn instead. Anybody down south knows how well cornbread and molasses go together..

Jesse from still it did what he called "love child" and it was a 50/50 corn molasses. It definitely sounds like it has potential, but I'd probably change the ratios up a bit. Do something like an 80/20 corn/barley, and hit it with a little molasses for flavor. If youre already making that on stillage it could end up being damn good.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Speaking of rum, I’ve done a few blends of white sugar and blackstrap molasses. This has me wondering about doing that but with corn instead. Anybody down south knows how well cornbread and molasses go together..

Jesse from still it did what he called "love child" and it was a 50/50 corn molasses. It definitely sounds like it has potential, but I'd probably change the ratios up a bit. Do something like an 80/20 corn/barley, and hit it with a little molasses for flavor. If youre already making that on stillage it could end up being damn good.

That's getting close to sweet feed, just add oats. I've been thinking that might be next too, but all corn has me wondering if it might be fun.

Rusty

[Twisted Brick]

Speaking of rum, I’ve done a few blends of white sugar and blackstrap molasses. This has me wondering about doing that but with corn instead. Anybody down south knows how well cornbread and molasses go together..

Jesse from still it did what he called "love child" and it was a 50/50 corn molasses. It definitely sounds like it has potential, but I'd probably change the ratios up a bit. Do something like an 80/20 corn/barley, and hit it with a little molasses for flavor. If youre already making that on stillage it could end up being damn good.

Take a gander at Corene’s rumsky .

[Deplorable]

Ive been saying that corn is cheaper than sugar for a few years, and it's seemed to fall on deaf ears around here.
I made 6 gallons of straight corn whiskey back in 2021 and just finished the last of it off with my brothers at my mom's memorial service. For the price per proof-bottle it was some damned good whiskey, but milling 150 pounds of Dent corn by hand was a bit of work.

[The Booze Pipe]

I can get sugar for US$.74/pound and corn meal for $.80. But what I've learned through baking, cooking, eating baked goods, and especially this hobby is that white sugar is just a flavor detractor, and the more you add, the more flavor it takes away!

[Bolverk]

I can get sugar for US$.74/pound and corn meal for $.80. But what I've learned through baking, cooking, eating baked goods, and especially this hobby is that white sugar is just a flavor detractor, and the more you add, the more flavor it takes away!

But if youre willing/able to grind your own corn, you can get a 50lb bag from tractor supply for $10.79 so thats $.21 per lbs.

[Homebrewer11777]

Seems to me that at a hobby level if you don't like sugarheads you probably should not bother with them regardless of the economics.

But no way a pound of corn makes the same amount of alcohol as a pound of sugar. According to the calculator on this site, a 25 pound bag of sugar is going to produce 12.5 gallons of 100 proof (before cuts). 0.5 gallons per pound.

Per ADI forum 56 pounds of corn should make 5.82 gallons of 100 proof (before cuts). 0.10 gallons per pound.

Unless you are using yellow label yeast I think you then need to also consider fuel cost to gelatinize the corn and cooling cost to bring that hot mess back to pitching temperature.

[Swedish Pride]

For me it's cheaper with grains, sugar heads are so much easier though.
I think if I was able for the sugar bite I'd do em but I can't hack it

[Bolverk]

But no way a pound of corn makes the same amount of alcohol as a pound of sugar. 

Yes, pound for pound sugar will make make more alcohol than corn, but if you look at it in terms of cost per pound you get more booze per dollar using corn.

A 25lb bag of sugar cost $15 at Walmart ($.60 per lb) and a 50lb bag of corn from tractor supply cost $11. ($.22 per lb).

Corn only has about 35 points per pound (ppp) and sugar is 46 ppp but the corn is like 1/3 the price. So even if we have to use 1.3x the amount of corn to be equal to the sugar it's still at half the cost per pound than using sugar.

[SW_Shiner]

Ive also moved away from sugar and now use only grains for everything. With how cheap and easy is it these days to get enzymes, whether it be liquid or even YLAY. The cost of a mash is about 1/2 what it would cost me to use sugar. And with using YLAY, its no harder to do than a sugarhead anyway.

[Stump Lake]

I've been doing a Run Of Honey Bear Bourbon All Grainn followed up with a Honey Bear Bourbon Sugarhead . I've been tracking my cost throughout the process. Here is the way my cost $$ are turning out. As the car commercial Says "Individual millage may vary". These are my actual numbers based on my actual cost and actual yield.

The big difference for me has been in the yield of the ALL GRAN vs. The SUGARHEAD. Take into account that I'm fairly new at making All Grain and I hope my All Grain efficiently improves with practice.

Two very different products. My All Grain in barreled and left to age for sipping neat. My sugarhead is mostly re-distilled and turned into Gin. At that point most of the Sugar bite is gone.

Edit: My BAD, you guys missed a great chance to Fact Check me.

Admin: If I edited this wrong please correct me.

I multiplied the grains and sugar x3. I should not have done that.

These numbers look a lot better.

Sorry about that

[Homebrewer11777]

@Stump Lake are these yields after cuts?

Am I using this calculator wrong? https://homedistiller.org/wiki/htm/calc ... _yield.htm

Using the calculator I get 75 pounds of sugar should yield 9.89 gallons at 50%.

[Stump Lake]

Yes the yields I listed are after cuts

[jonnys_spirit]

I like to think about it similar to making soup where sugar in your distilled product sugar might be approximated with adding water to your soup and using grains or perhaps other flavorful ingredients might roughly equate to adding stock to your soup...

Cheers,
jonny

[subbrew]

For me, it is the fact I don't like the mashing process. It just is lot of work. I love this hobby and don't even mind squeezing grain too much. So for me the extra $25 to not have to mash 90 lb of grain and still get an acceptable everyday drink is worth it. But if you enjoy the mashing the equation would be different. That said, I will do 4 large batches this winter. Only one of which will I follow with a sugarhead.

[zach]

Coincidentally, I just bought a 50 lb bag of feed corn at Tractor Supply, for $10.79.

Wow, my local TS has the same bag for $20.79.

Azure standard has organic rye for $33 per bag which is quickly becoming my favorite.

If you are buying malted grain on line with shipping costs, I can understand making a sugarhead.

With the availability of YLAY, the difficulty of using un-malted grain is no more than a sugarhead and can cost alot less if you have a grinder.

[Homebrewer11777]

The sugarheads are for sure easy to make vs all grain mash. Really only work is another round of squeezing the grains. I started my journey here with UJSSM and liked that product well enough. Once I transitioned to AG mash it seemed pretty natural to take one sugarhead on top of the mash solids. Young these don't seem to be night and day different from the all grain batch that proceeded the sugarhead. Maybe that is just my lack of skill either at stilling or cutting... Perhaps there is a big difference that will show up with age. Currently running a side by side in Badmo barrels of a bourbon all grain vs the sugarhead fermented on top of the same spent grains. I've got a bit of inventory piling up and can see it might make sense to skip the sugarheads, especially if the side by side shows a noticeable difference in favor of the AG product.

I still make beer and have found beer mash solids make a really interesting sugarhead that is remarkably different from my bourbon and bourbon-sugarhead batches. These are also stupid easy to make...and much easier to squeeze at the end. I've started capping the mash with roasted and crystal barley grains for even more flavor.

[8Ball]

I’ve made and enjoyed piggy back sugarheads. But since a sugarhead roughly takes the same amount of time & resources as an AG, I rarely will do a sugarhead again.

[NormandieStill]

I still make beer and have found beer mash solids make a really interesting sugarhead that is remarkably different from my bourbon and bourbon-sugarhead batches. These are also stupid easy to make...and much easier to squeeze at the end. I've started capping the mash with roasted and crystal barley grains for even more flavor.

I'm doing this at the minute. Whenever I brew a beer, the spent grains get a sugarhead. I then steam strip the resulting wash (slurry) and merge all the low wines. Another couple of batches of beer and I'll have enough to do a spirit run.

[airhill]

The whole premise of this thread is that all grain is cheaper than sugar (and some rather uppity remarks regarding sugar).
There are a few places in the world where this might be so.
Sugar is a fairly refined and consistent product, grain is not, and so figures based on calculators for starch conversion to 'sugar' to ethanol for grain are to say the least variable. Also a bag of sugar does not have crap in it like stockfeed.
Now onto the process; labour and energy costs are higher for grain and there are more chances of fucking up on grain (more steps).
Just because sugar is usually a beginners step into distilling it has got a bad name, and that has nothing to do with sugar.
You don't think we got bourbon because someone wanted to do all grain, we got it because maize grew well in Kentucky and sugar was effing expensive in those days.
Anyway I don't think it is 'cheaper', but that's just my opinion.

[Steve Broady]

I don’t see anyone getting uppity about white sugar. It’s simply an inferior option for making flavored spirits like whiskey, brandy, or rum. Its only real contribution to a product is alcohol, so it’s only really appropriate if pure alcohol is the goal. Of course, it is basically foolproof, so it does have a place for people who, for whatever reason, want the ease and reliability of using sugar instead of grain.

My point is that I’ve been making sugarheads because they seem dirt cheap, and reusing the grain from an all grain ferment helps make up for the lack of flavor. But after doing the math, I’ve realized that they are roughly twice as expensive as using corn for the same job. If the goal is just cheap liquor, then right now corn beats sugar. Even factoring in all the losses, variability, and labor involved, there’s still a pretty clear cost benefit for me.

Regardless of the reason for bourbon existing as it does, I for one would definitely chose bourbon over watered down Everclear any day. It tastes better to me. So for me, sugar has always been a shortcut and a compromise. It’s not the best ingredient for the things I like to drink, it’s just been the best ingredient for the things I was able to make.

[8Ball]

I don’t see anyone getting uppity about white sugar.

+1

[MooseMan]

I tend to only do sugarheads when I'm getting low on Neutral stocks and I know I'll be wanting to do another reflux run soon.

I think of it as just capitalising on the free, and very active yeast that's already in the grain bed, and making use of the nutrients that are there, instead of having to add nutrients and yeast to a sugar wash.

I've gotten used to using approx 1/3 of the spent grain bed to make a sugarhead (For neutral) of a similar size to the original. So in other words if I had a 60l all grain for example, I'd be able to make 180l of sugarhead on it. (I usually give the other 2/3 of the spent grain to mates who don't all grain brew, to do the same)

[Homebrewer11777]

Ingredient cost is really far down on my list of considerations when considering to make a sugarhead. I don't actually believe that converting corn is cheaper per unit of ethanol than making a sugar wash but not really my issue.

Reason I make sugarheads is the time committment to make an all grain wash. It takes me a weekend. Not every hour of the weekend but I will be busy in the garage for a few hours on both Saturday and Sunday on an all grain bourbon mash day. I understand YLAY might be an answer to that issue but have not ventured down that rabbit hole just yet.

Making a sugar wash on top of squeezed grains on other hand takes really no additional time in the garage. It just happens while I am stripping the all grain batch. Since I am liking the product from sugarheads my decision on whether or not to make a sugarhead from a given AG batch comes down to my low wines inventory. If low wines inventory is getting low easy decision to make a sugarhead. If low wines are building up on me might be best to not make the sugarhead and dedicate some time to spirit run(s).

[subbrew]

So for me, sugar has always been a shortcut and a compromise. It’s not the best ingredient for the things I like to drink, it’s just been the best ingredient for the things I was able to make.

That sums it up. Sugar is a compromise. When used on a piggy back sugar head it provides a less work, slightly more expensive way to get a somewhat inferior, yet OK drink. In my case, I also make tighter cuts on a sugar head because it is something I want to drink in 12 months. My all grain I cut wider, to get more complexity in the 3 to 6 years later when I plan to open that badmo. I feel the tighter cuts help to lessen the inferior drink downside since even an all grain with tight cuts will also be a less complex drink.

Next season I will try yellow label as that seems like it can change the compromise equation by reducing the work to the point the equation balance tips back to all grain, even if I am doing narrow cuts for a shorter aging time.