Plated column questions

[PalCabral]

Hiya guys!

I've always felt the plated columns are out of my league, at least for now, but recently I was asked if I was interested in buying a used 4 inch perforated plate, and that jogged my interest. However, I really don't know much about them, and thus I've read many threads here about perforated plates, especially Higgins's and Haggy's threads. I still have some pretty basic questions I was hoping you help to answer. Bear in mind, I am only thinking about making rum and whiskey, not the slightest interested in making neutral spirits.

My first question is really about the need for a view port or a sight glass. Besides being nice to look at reflux, what is it that we are looking for from the operations point of view? I mean, are we looking at upper part to see the bath, or below it to see the reflux downcomers? In the below picture from the internet, and forget it's a bubble plate in this example, the view port is below the plate. I would guess I would be more interested from an operational perspective to to view the bath, to determine that we are loaded and refluxing. Am I right? What value is there to look at the downcomers? Or would I need another sight glass mounted on top of the Tee to view the bath side?

Tee with plate and view port.jpg

Second question is really about just using one plate, or in my specific case, using one plate above a copper onion. Will I even get the effect of the plates in this case? The copper onion adds heaps of reflux in my rig, would the perforated plate be a "second" plate in my set up, or just something that smears the carp out of the fractioning effect I am getting from copper onion - two wonderful cheeses don't necessarily make a good sandwich? Even without the onion, will one plate have any meaningful effect? I am talking about making rum and whiskey here.

Final question. Is the plate useless without a reflux condenser? I am assuming it is but in my research I stumbled across someone from Milehi (which I have little regards for) saying it's possible to run it without reflux. Is this actually true or just more horse manure from that particular person?

In my case, my RC is 2 inch shotgun and I would have a reducer between the plate and the RC - the RC itself in 20cm tall (8 inches). Would the RC be enough to work with a 4 inch plate, or do I need a 4 inch RC for my one plate example?

I realize that just by asking these questions, I am not really ready for using a plated column yet, but knowledge will never hurt anyone.

[Saltbush Bill]

My first question is really about the need for a view port or a sight glass. Besides being nice to look at reflux, what is it that we are looking for from the operations point of view? I mean, are we looking at upper part to see the bath, or below it to see the reflux downcomers? In the below picture from the internet, and forget it's a bubble plate in this example, the view port is below the plate. I would guess I would be more interested from an operational perspective to to view the bath, to determine that we are loaded and refluxing. Am I right? What value is there to look at the downcomers? Or would I need another sight glass mounted on top of the Tee to view the bath side?

There is good reason for sight glasses on plated columns , they are not just there for looks, running a plated column is a juggling act between heat, reflux and product take off speed.
Sight glasses allow you to see what is going on , on each individual plate.
Is the plate dry or beginning to dry up ? is the plate flooded or beginning to flood? How much reflux is falling from the defleg to the top plate? Are all of the plates loaded at the start of run, is the bottom plate starting to dry up or go cloudy if so tails are on the way.
Is this perf plate made by a reputable seller/ manufacturer or is it a home build still ?

Second question is really about just using one plate, or in my specific case, using one plate above a copper onion.

How its been built and by whom will dictate how well it runs.
Anything under two plates is pretty much useless imo and most who try say hard n fiddly to run.....Ive never personally tried, just what I hear through the grapevine.

The copper onion adds heaps of reflux in my rig,

Is the plate useless without a reflux condenser?

The dome wont produce enough reflux to keep perf plates loaded , if you were using caps it might be different.

RC is 2 inch shotgun and I would have a reducer between the plate and the RC - the RC itself in 20cm tall (8 inches). Would the RC be enough to work with a 4 inch plate, or do I need a 4 inch RC for my one plate example?

Its not about how many plates there are, its really about how easily the deflegmator can be overwhelmed or if it can achieve full reflux at higher energy inputs to the boiler. If its big enough to load one plate it will load 10 plates.

[tommysb]

Hi Pal,

My opinions.

If you use a proper bubble plate that maintains a fluid bath, like the one in your photo above, UNDER an onion head that is causing passive reflux, you will get some extra 'enrichment' of your product, without the need for the dephleg. A dephleg allows you to control the amount of product that you send back down the column. If you put a fan onto the onion head, and changed the fan speed, you would also get some degree of control.

Putting the plate under the onion means that the refluxed product is caught before it falls back into the boiler and mixes with all the rest of the wash.

If you are just using a single plate, a viewport above it is probably useful. I guess in the photo you posted (oakstills?), that it's just easier to see what's included in the shipment so they photographed it that way.

I think you can definitely run without a dephleg if you put it under the head.

If you do have a dephleg, (I think you do, that's what you mean by RC?), a 2" will be sufficient for a 4" plate. The size is more about how much power you are throwing at the boiler.

If you are making whiskey and rum, you don't want to use too much reflux, just a trickle of water through the RC should do it.

Re. knowledge and not being ready - If you were to put a plate into your system, and start to run product with it, you would gain understanding that can't be obtained by just reading.

[Saltbush Bill]

If you use a proper bubble plate that maintains a fluid bath, like the one in your photo above, UNDER an onion head that is causing passive reflux, you will get some extra 'enrichment' of your product, without the need for the dephleg.

The problem is that the still on offer is not a cap / bubble plate, its a perf plate....a big difference........one might , one wont.

[PalCabral]

There is good reason for sight glasses on plated columns , they are not just there for looks, running a plated column is a juggling act between heat, reflux and product take off speed.
Sight glasses allow you to see what is going on , on each individual plate.
Is the plate dry or beginning to dry up ? is the plate flooded or beginning to flood? How much reflux is falling from the defleg to the top plate? Are all of the plates loaded at the start of run, is the bottom plate starting to dry up or go cloudy if so tails are on the way.

Thanks for clarifying, Bill. So basically I need a way to view both the upper side of the plate and below it.

Is this perf plate made by a reputable seller/ manufacturer or is it a home build still ?

I believe it is made/sold by Oakstills, but I'm guessing. Doubt it is homemade.

The dome wont produce enough reflux to keep perf plates loaded , if you were using caps it might be different.

I was actually thinking of having the plate above the copper onion, between the dome and the RC/dephleg, acting as the second plate after the dome.

Its not about how many plates there are, its really about how easily the deflegmator can be overwhelmed or if it can achieve full reflux at higher energy inputs to the boiler. If its big enough to load one plate it will load 10 plates.

Gotcha. I will use Haggy's reflux condenser calculator to check this.

Thanks, Bill!

[PalCabral]

Hi Pal,

My opinions.

If you use a proper bubble plate that maintains a fluid bath, like the one in your photo above, UNDER an onion head that is causing passive reflux, you will get some extra 'enrichment' of your product, without the need for the dephleg. A dephleg allows you to control the amount of product that you send back down the column. If you put a fan onto the onion head, and changed the fan speed, you would also get some degree of control.

Putting the plate under the onion means that the refluxed product is caught before it falls back into the boiler and mixes with all the rest of the wash.

If you are just using a single plate, a viewport above it is probably useful. I guess in the photo you posted (oakstills?), that it's just easier to see what's included in the shipment so they photographed it that way.

I think you can definitely run without a dephleg if you put it under the head.

If you do have a dephleg, (I think you do, that's what you mean by RC?), a 2" will be sufficient for a 4" plate. The size is more about how much power you are throwing at the boiler.

If you are making whiskey and rum, you don't want to use too much reflux, just a trickle of water through the RC should do it.

Re. knowledge and not being ready - If you were to put a plate into your system, and start to run product with it, you would gain understanding that can't be obtained by just reading.

Hi Tom and thanks for responding!

I didn't even think about using the plate below the onion. My thought was to place it above the onion, between the onion and the dephlegmator. My blurry thought process was that the onion with its' reflux would work as a first (sort of) plate and the perforated plate would be like plate number 2.

Yes, I snipped the photo from Oakstills, and I understand your point that it's more from presentation, that makes sense. I have a 4 inch spool of 20cm without a view port, onto which I was planning to put the plate, and then a 4 inch sight glass, which I was thinking of putting on top of the plate, for visibility. But as Bill is suggesting, I probably need another sight glass below as well, if I want to see the reflux below the plate.

My thinking was to use the 2 inch dephleg that I already have, with a 4-to-2 inch reducer between the sight glass and the dephleg. I've not used the dephleg much, only for a couple of reflux runs, and then only using very careful and lowish power on the elements, max 1500w. I will check with Haggy's reflux condenser calculator to see where my dephleg maxes out.

If you are making whiskey and rum, you don't want to use too much reflux, just a trickle of water through the RC should do it.

Yes, this is true and I am actually happy with the passive reflux I am getting from the copper onion. Not sure if I need a plate for anything else but Queens runs and possibly Rum spirit runs where I want a slightly more neutral/lighter product. At the same time I could just use the dephleg and some copper mesh in this case.

[30xs]

Perf plate is going need some form of reflux above. Either a dephleg for CM or full reflux condenser and a VM takeoff port below that. VM is hard to beat for the set and forget takeoff rate over the CM. Once I get back up and running I’d say a VM over perfs will be my next project. With a small needle valve and dedicated pressure regulator just for the dephleg it’s not bad, but….

Learning to drive one I’d say 3 plates minimum, 4 is even better. One or two plates are a challenge for a later date. Even 4 perf plates pulling 92-94% isn’t going to be a flavorless neutral, especially with rum. It will be a little lighter/cleaner than a potstill run, but definitely not a neutral.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Bubble caps are easier to run imo and can be operated at various power levels. But Perfs require a minimum amount of power just to get the plate to load. Oak Stills are OK, made from Chinese parts. I hear they have a good service dept and stand behind what they sell. But you're buying second hand.
You can always buy additional plates to go in it. It's it electric or propane? And how many Volts if electric?
With perfs you typically want to apply the the optimum amount of power to keep the plate loaded. It's a fairly inflexible amount. Not enough and it won't load at all. I've heard some refer to them as "One Trick Ponys". Bubble caps are better imo. If the price is right you can buy the still and replace/install as many bubblers as you like to reach your taste and proof preferences.

[Refluxer]

PC,

You must have some reflux above the top bubble plate or it will be difficult if not impossible to get started. I much prefer a sight glass style over the periscope T style, but they work the same. You have to observe it to get the heat adjustment right. I often run 2 plates with a 30" column above for neutral high test like rum. I've run with a dephlegmator above as well, and it's much simpler to run a column above. The more bubble plates, the more ABV at the collector. I still prefer running a strip and spirit run over a one and done run.
It sounds like you already have a good setup for whiskey.

MR

[PalCabral]

Perf plate is going need some form of reflux above. Either a dephleg for CM or full reflux condenser and a VM takeoff port below that. VM is hard to beat for the set and forget takeoff rate over the CM. Once I get back up and running I’d say a VM over perfs will be my next project. With a small needle valve and dedicated pressure regulator just for the dephleg it’s not bad, but….

Learning to drive one I’d say 3 plates minimum, 4 is even better. One or two plates are a challenge for a later date. Even 4 perf plates pulling 92-94% isn’t going to be a flavorless neutral, especially with rum. It will be a little lighter/cleaner than a potstill run, but definitely not a neutral.

Thanks, 30x. One plate is probably going to be too much of a challenge and I wasn't really thinking of a full flute build. At least not this year.

[PalCabral]

Bubble caps are easier to run imo and can be operated at various power levels. But Perfs require a minimum amount of power just to get the plate to load. Oak Stills are OK, made from Chinese parts. I hear they have a good service dept and stand behind what they sell. But you're buying second hand.
You can always buy additional plates to go in it. It's it electric or propane? And how many Volts if electric?
With perfs you typically want to apply the the optimum amount of power to keep the plate loaded. It's a fairly inflexible amount. Not enough and it won't load at all. I've heard some refer to them as "One Trick Ponys". Bubble caps are better imo. If the price is right you can buy the still and replace/install as many bubblers as you like to reach your taste and proof preferences.

Thanks, POP. I am using electric, 220v. I'm not really in the market for a plated still though. It's a good offer and I'm tempted to buy it for the future, but I know it's just going to be one more thing I add to my ever growing collection of brewing or distilling things. I am tired of hearing the missus remind me about all the shit I've got.

[PalCabral]

PC,

You must have some reflux above the top bubble plate or it will be difficult if not impossible to get started. I much prefer a sight glass style over the periscope T style, but they work the same. You have to observe it to get the heat adjustment right. I often run 2 plates with a 30" column above for neutral high test like rum. I've run with a dephlegmator above as well, and it's much simpler to run a column above. The more bubble plates, the more ABV at the collector. I still prefer running a strip and spirit run over a one and done run.
It sounds like you already have a good setup for whiskey.

MR

Thanks MR. I've read too people recommending to stripp and then do spirit so I wasn't planning on using it for a one and done. Higgins' results when he tested single run and double run flutes indicated that the whiskey gets better with double runs. But when you say you run a 30" column above the plate, you are still using a dephleg above that column, right?

[Refluxer]

But when you say you run a 30" column above the plate, you are still using a dephleg above that column, right?

I have run a dephleg above it all, but it took a bunch more power, adds touchy adjustments, and went above 90% (had some prior stripping added to 11% wash) and a lot of the flavor diminished, not really a problem for high test, but I preferred the runs without it, just using the column above the 2 plates. The column above did provide enough reflux to keep the top plate with the right amount for proper operation.

In the picture you can see that reflux is coming down from the column and keeping the top plate wet.

IMG_5222.png

[PalCabral]

Thanks to all of you. Lots of great input. I've had some really good help from Haggy on this topic and his findings, which are similar to many of yours, is that one plate is just going to add grief when it comes to trying to make it fit with my dome and my smallish dephleg. I will pass on the offer for a plate. I don't see myself wanting to add another difficulty level to my distilling just yet. Pot stills are still my thing.

[Tammuz]

I bought some perforated plates from oakstills. The ones I bought had about a 4% opening,so I had to drill out a bunch of holes to a wider dia. That was 2 years ago.

A rum run with one plate does clean it up.