Janky Old Still, Expectations?

[Ghost29]

Hi all, first post after my intro.

I used this still once about 12 years ago. It made alcohol and I’m still here so I know it “works”. That said, I’m trying to gain a little more knowledge, manage expectations and improve my equipment if needed.

My setup:
15ish gallon copper kettle with 10-12 feet of 1/2” od copper coiled in a 5 gallon bucket.

I’m planning to utilize mostly barley but corn, wheat and rye (not all in the same mash) from 6 gallon fermentations.

Questions:
1. On a scale of 1 (complete joke) to 10 (totally kickass) where would you rate this?
2. Is the copper coming out of the little to narrow?
3. Is the coil in the bucket too long?
4. If starting with 6 gallons of 12-15% ABV beer, what proof should I expect?
5. What volume of consumable alcohol should I expect at the end?

Thanks in advance for all your input!

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Mod Edit Image turn.

[SW_Shiner]

Still doesn't look too bad. The lyne arm should be fine if you strain and distill off grain, I would be wary of clogging if adding grains to the boiler. Also the bit of hose is a no no, should be replaced with something that is safe for contact with solvent vapours like ptfe tape, a union or triclamp connection. A thick flour paste may also work.

Your condenser coil looks fine, i'd be more worried about it being too short, i prefer to be limited by power input rather than condenser performance.

At the bottom of the page there is a link called Distillation Calculators. Have a look around, you'd be surprised at how much you can work out for yourself using them.

[greggn]

I used this still once about 12 years ago.

Did you make the boiler and/or did you know the builder ? Do you *know* that the solder is lead-free ?

[Ghost29]

Still doesn't look too bad. The lyne arm should be fine if you strain and distill off grain, I would be wary of clogging if adding grains to the boiler. Also the bit of hose is a no no, should be replaced with something that is safe for contact with solvent vapours like ptfe tape, a union or triclamp connection. A thick flour paste may also work.

Your condenser coil looks fine, i'd be more worried about it being too short, i prefer to be limited by power input rather than condenser performance.

At the bottom of the page there is a link called Distillation Calculators. Have a look around, you'd be surprised at how much you can work out for yourself using them.

Thank you for the speedy response and pointing out the calculators!

[Ghost29]

I used this still once about 12 years ago.

Did you make the boiler and/or did you know the builder ? Do you *know* that the solder is lead-free ?

I can’t confirm the material used to make the still. That probably puts me back at square one.

[acfixer69]

I used this still once about 12 years ago.

Did you make the boiler and/or did you know the builder ? Do you *know* that the solder is lead-free ?

I can’t confirm the material used to make the still. That probably puts me back at square one.

Get a lead test kit from big box store. Quick and easy to do.

[Yummyrum]

I agree with Greggn .Biggest concern is the potential for Lead Solder .
SW_Shiner is also correct . That piece of plastic hose needs to go . A compression fitting should sort that out .
And also share his concerns about the potential for a blockage if you are using grains in the boiler.

Is the worm a nice even spiral with no low or high spots ? If so, this can cause surging an splurting of product . Not a big deal , but not ideal.

As for your question on yield . I think you are talking about a single pass or what we refer to as a one and done .

Second issue , you ask about a beer that is 12-15% abv .

99% of us here never do a one and done . We do a double distillation . The first run is called the Stripping run and the second run is called the Spirit run .

Normally we would do several stripping runs , then add all those back to the boiler for a Spirit run . The stripping runs are done with as much heat as you can use to get the job done . The spirit run is done very slowly so that the still can separate out the heads and tails better . This results in a very nice drink compared to a one and done .

Getting back to your 12-15% beer . We would all consider that to be too high . We would normally aim for around 6-10% tops .
The reason is , when yeast have to make alcohol that high , they stress out and make a pile of stinky byproducts that makes your spirit taste and smell bad .

Revisiting the Stripping run . As I mentioned , you would normally run the still pretty hard but that Lyne arm and worm will be your limit .
You can also expect to have to replace the water in that bucket at least 6-10 times ( guessing from the pictures) .
You should hook a hose up to it . Feed water in the bottom and drain off the top .

Sooo, get a lead testing kit and check the solder first . If it is good ( lead free) you should consider upgrading the rest of the still if you want it to be more practical .

But , if you are happy making single pass from high ABV beer then it should be just fine as long as you strain everything before you fill it , and are prepared for a slow session

EDIT : posted with others

[Salt Must Flow]

I know it was suggested previously, but I would definitely use a copper union to replace that rubber hose junction.

Copper Union.jpg

[PalCabral]

Hi Ghost.

+1 Yummy! If you want a clean good tasting product, make your yeast happy.

By your questions about expected ABV and volume, and the fact you've only run the still once a long time ago, it leads me to believe you don't know much about distillation, fractions (foreshots, heads, hearts, tails) or smearing. If you do, my apologies, but the understanding of how to separate the fractions to get the flavor you want is central in distilling. Running a fermented wash once will give you a spirit where named fractions are so smeared making your liquor will taste pretty harsh, maybe near undrinkable, unless you are a very talented and patient distiller (because you will be running pretty darn slow). Double distillation concentrates the ethanol, giving you low wines at 20-35% ABV after the first run, the stripping run, which will be easier to use when distilling a second time to separate the fractions. I suggest you look into the purpose and techniques for stripping runs and spirit runs, and spend some time understanding the fractions and cuts in distilling.

Trying to answer your question about what to expect, it's all about how you operate the still and your process. Me, I typically work with 6g ferments and my boiler is a tad smaller than yours, 13g. When I make Whiskey, I usually do 4 fermentations giving me a wash of 6-8.5% ABV, each. I do 4 stripping runs where I run until what comes off the spout is <5% ABV - the actual ABV is less important, it's the volume that counts. This will give me 1.5-2g of low wines at 24-28% ABV after each run, and a total of 6-8g for the spirit run. The spirit run will give me about 1.5-2g of kept product, ie no foreshots, heads and tails, at about 75-78% ABV. If you make tighter cuts, you get less, if you make broader cuts, you get more. How to make good cuts is another challenge.

It's not possible for me to estimate how your process will work out, but besides some of the things being pointed out by the other guys, you can make good liquor in almost any still if you just operate it right and pay attention to safety. Good luck.

[NZChris]

It's a pot still, not a fractionating still, so don't be confused by talk of taking off fractions.

Heads and tails are what is left over after you have chosen your heart cut. They are not 'fractions', and they contain the same VOCs as the hearts, but in high concentrations that make them unpleasant.

[Ghost29]

Wow! So much valuable information. Thank you all.

I think the first order of business is a lead test then a copper union.

[Yummyrum]

Wow! So much valuable information. Thank you all.

I think the first order of business is a lead test then a copper union.

It's a pot still, not a fractionating still, so don't be confused by talk of taking off fractions.

Heads and tails are what is left over after you have chosen your heart cut. They are not 'fractions', and they contain the same VOCs as the hearts, but in high concentrations that make them unpleasant.

Very True Chris

Also read this
viewtopic.php?p=6815752#p6815752

And this
viewtopic.php?p=7500094#p7500094

[NorthWoodsAb]

Sweet. A 15 gal copper boiler like that has a ton of potential or a nice pot still if used as is. I'd love to find an old still like that.
Cheers

[Ghost29]

I know it was suggested previously, but I would definitely use a copper union to replace that rubber hose junction.


Copper Union.jpg

Is that coupling slip on, slip off when done? I’d like to keep my setup modular for storage purposes.

[Yummyrum]

I know it was suggested previously, but I would definitely use a copper union to replace that rubber hose junction.


Copper Union.jpg

Is that coupling slip on, slip off when done? I’d like to keep my setup modular for storage purposes.

You solder the copper bits onto your 1/2" copper pipe .Then you can undo the brass nut to undo it .
See one end has a thread on it .

union.jpg

If you can't solder or have the equipment , You could use a Lead free Brass Compression fitting . All you have to do is slip the ends in and do it up with some spanners .

Copper-Olive-Union-15C-x-15C.jpg

[Ghost29]

Thanks Yummyrum! I didn’t realize the nut was fixed to one side and the other side threaded.

[Yummyrum]

Thanks Yummyrum! I didn’t realize the nut was fixed to one side and the other side threaded.

The nuts not fixed , It's free to turn . It just pulls one copper surface up hard against the other

This is a cross section of a Stainless version but it's the same deal .

socket-weld-union-weight-chart.jpg

[Yonder]

I also run a pot still, tho’ mine has a nice thumper so, in effect, I double distill my wash in a single step. You have a nice old starter, just fix the little flaws. If you find you enjoy the craft you will move on later. Were it me, I’d replace the little 3/8ths id copper with some half inch (id), but that’s for later on. Just ensure NOTHING but liquid goes into the boiler.
As to what to expect, well that comes with practice. I routinely get 82-85 abv on my runs and burn it down to about 30. The feints go into the next run, split between boiler and thumper. I’ll keep maybe a gallon or so for aging…less my sipping reward for a good run. White “lightnin” is a nice instant gratification for all of that “hard” work.

[PalCabral]

It's a pot still, not a fractionating still, so don't be confused by talk of taking off fractions.

Heads and tails are what is left over after you have chosen your heart cut. They are not 'fractions', and they contain the same VOCs as the hearts, but in high concentrations that make them unpleasant.

I suggest you rewrite the Novice Guide for Cuts (Pot Still) viewtopic.php?p=6815752#p6815752 that is part of the mandatory learning on the New Distiller Reading Lounge, Chris.

1 - What are cuts and fractions?

Cuts are the points in a distillation run where the stiller separates the distillate into separate fractions (divisions between sections of the run). In order to make good cuts, it is important to understand what the different fractions of a run are, and how to recognise them.

[NZChris]

I suggest you rewrite the Novice Guide for Cuts (Pot Still) viewtopic.php?p=6815752#p6815752 that is part of the mandatory learning on the New Distiller Reading Lounge, Chris.

There's nothing wrong with it for making neutral and narrow cut white dog for instant gratification. Ghost29 wants to make whiskey, so jars outside Kiwistiller's method will contain VOCs that should be in the hearts. You can do that by adding them to the heart cut tasting sample, one jar at a time, until you find the jars that spoil the heart cut rather than improve it. It gives a more flavorsome product and a higher yield.

[PalCabral]

Nothing what you wrote now, Chris, explains why kiwistiller's definition of fractions is wrong and yours' is right. Here, I'll save you the scrolling to read the paragraphs again:

It's a pot still, not a fractionating still, so don't be confused by talk of taking off fractions.

Heads and tails are what is left over after you have chosen your heart cut. They are not 'fractions', and they contain the same VOCs as the hearts, but in high concentrations that make them unpleasant.

1 - What are cuts and fractions?

Cuts are the points in a distillation run where the stiller separates the distillate into separate fractions (divisions between sections of the run). In order to make good cuts, it is important to understand what the different fractions of a run are, and how to recognise them.

I don't see how the statements both can be correct at the same time, unless if it's a matter of who says them that makes a difference of what is correct or not?

[NZChris]

Just because I use his method doesn't mean that I agree with his use of the term, 'fractions' in his description.

[Homebrewer11777]

wow learned a new term. I did not realize that column stills were also called fractionating stills (and apparantly occasionally fractioning stills).

Kiwi's post however is not the only place on the internet that describes the process of dividing a pot still run into multiple jars as fractioning the batch.

[SW_Shiner]

Years of simplification for newbies and repetition of those simplifications have muddied the meanings and uses of many words used in multiple industries.

[PalCabral]

Years of simplification for newbies and repetition of those simplifications have muddied the meanings and uses of many words used in multiple industries.

I am not really sure what you mean with that sentence, SW? Maybe you can expand, because I might misunderstand you?

My understanding is that the fractioning of a distillate into heads, hearts and tails is maybe a +1000 years old, and forms the base of academic studies of distillation since hundreds of years. The words foreshots, heads, hearts, tails and stillage have a translation in every single language of the distilling world. For a reason.

The fractions of a distillate is uniform. The cuts of the distillate is the discretion of the distiller.

[NZChris]

If you want to call heads, hearts and tails 'fractions' in your shed, that's fine, but it's not how the term is used in industry, where it is mostly used for fuel production. I stick to industry definitions and try not to take on board Youtube and forum variations that creep in. Youtubers and forum members don't have to present any qualifications before posting whatever they want.

[SW_Shiner]

In pot stilling, they are fractions in the sense that they are a part, or a fraction (1/2, 1/4, 1/64) of the run, a whole number (volume) divided into many. Fractional distillation is the process of separating VOC by their boiling point. Which is not what we are doing, especially in a pot still. No one here can point to any jar after a run and say, this jar contains only methanol, this one only acetone, this one only ethanol.

My understanding is that the fractioning of a distillate into heads, hearts and tails is maybe a +1000 years old, and forms the base of academic studies of distillation since hundreds of years.

People using words that have multiple meanings can also muddy things, for example. In the sentence of yours I have quoted, to me, it would be a much clearer to understand if you had of said 'My understanding is that the separation of a distillate into heads, hearts and tails is maybe a +1000 years old, and forms the base of academic studies of distillation since hundreds of years.'

Fraction was already a word used in distillation, usually referring to inside the column. Then someone took the same word, with a different but still correct meaning, and applied it to outside the still.

I think the most common one though is hydrometers. E.g. I used a hydrometer to measure the SG at 1.060, and then I used a hydrometer to measure my distillate at 70%ABV. Now, there is no incorrect information in that sentence. But there is some information missing. Now here is the same again, but with the relevant info added in. I used a triple scale hydrometer to measure the SG at 1.060, and then I used a proof and Tralles scale hydrometer to measure my distillate at 70%ABV. Now the sentence contains all the correct info, but i can simplify it further. I used a beer hydrometer to measure the SG at 1.060, and then I used an alcometer to measure my distillate at 70%ABV.


I mean, in the end, its all semantics, and does it really matter? a lot of the time, no not really at hobby level. But there are times when it does, and it would make more sense to use a dedicated or different word to minimise confusion. Think about it, how many times do you see long winded threads of trying to help people out, only to find that none of the solutions help because the OP used the incorrect word and sent everyone down the wrong path from the beginning. One i remember is someone asking how they could increase the ABV coming out of their 4' column, after a couple pages of suggestions of packing material and running parameters, it was realised that they were running a pot still with a tall riser and not a reflux still.

I hope that makes sense, i struggle with getting the words in my head into written form.

[Saltbush Bill]

Ive always refered to the parts of any run Ive done as fractions ..... fores , heads , hearts, tails, and regardless of what still is being used.
Right or wrong I wont be changing that any time soon.
99% percent of people within this hobby understand exactly what Im talking about when I call a fraction a fraction in reference to making a cut or deciding on a cut point.
Anyone who's been on this forum for very long knows how I feel about using the correct words for distilling.
Until someone wants to come up with a better and more comprehensive guide to making cuts I will stick with Kiwistillers terminologies.
Maybe you would like to take a crack at that job Chris?
On top of that this thread has wandered way off topic.

[Copperhead road]

Ive always refered to the parts of any run Ive done as fractions ..... fores , heads , hearts, tails, and regardless of what still is being used.
Right or wrong I wont be changing that any time soon.
99% percent of people within this hobby understand exactly what Im talking about when I call a fraction a fraction. In reference to making a cut or deciding on a cut point.

+1

[Homebrewer11777]

sorry for wandering off on a side convo on your thread Ghost29 ... did you test for lead yet?

but back to that rabbit hole. I did some research and think I understand difference between the use of the word fractioning when it is used to mean separating into fractions with a pot still, a bunch of jars, and sensory evaluation vs fractional distillation (aka fractionating, rectification) using a true fractionating still.

It seems cuts, fractioning and fractional collection all mean pretty much the same thing and apply whether your distillate is produced in a pot still or a fractionating / fractional distillation still.

I think I am agreeing with PalCabral on the jargon here. I don't think there is really anything really wrong or confusing about calling the cuts fractions.