5 gallon oak barrel

[PalCabral]

Hiya all.

Next time I'm in Portugal I was thinking of stopping by at my cooper friend in Porto. I am thinking of buying one or two 20L/5g barrels made in new american white oak to use for Whiskey maturation. Or should I not? My experience is only from a 5L/1,5g barrel and it wasn't all positive, but a long time ago, I add.

20L/5g is still not a big size, obviously, and there's a lot of wood to spirit surface. I am concerned about over-oaking the Whiskey, especially when the barrel is new. I am also worried about excessive angel's share.

If you're using 5g barrels, how long are you normally storing the spirit in it? Is over-oaking something you have overcome in some way? What are the loss rates you experience from evaporation?

The alternative is to go with Badmos but the price difference is quite big. I can get 2-3 oak barrels at 20L for the price of one badmo incl shipping. And the Badmo is 6L, not 20L, but with a more reasonable wood vs spirit ratio.

Interested in your experience from this size of barrel.

[Copperhead road]

This gives you an indication on what you loose to the angels, Saltbush Bill give me this chart many years ago when i had three 100L barrel made.

[PalCabral]

Cool. Thanks Copper. 100L barrels sound like quite a chore to fill up! Did you fill them?

[8Ball]

My 5G Gibbs is actually a 6G+ cask with a little headspace left over. I just filled it for the 5th time. I average a gallon angel share per year, but I start topping off every couple months with spirit that has been aging in glass. I get about the same amount of loss with my 10G Gibbs, so bigger is better.

[PalCabral]

My 5G Gibbs is actually a 6G+ cask with a little headspace left over. I just filled it for the 5th time. I average a gallon angel share per year, but I start topping off every couple months with spirit that has been aging in glass. I get about the same amount of loss with my 10G Gibbs, so bigger is better.

Thanks, 8Ball. That's quite a loss. In a different thread, we were talking about petites eaux, spirit of the same type that is in the barrel but that has been reduced to 20-30% abv and rested on oak in parallel to the big barrel, and then used to slowly reduce the alcohol level in the barrel. Do you experience any alcohol loss, or gain, with the evaporation?

[Tammuz]

Why not use some white oak to make your own badmo barrels. Ships carpenters are out of work. It would be a cinch for them.

[PalCabral]

Why not use some white oak to make your own badmo barrels. Ships carpenters are out of work. It would be a cinch for them.

I'm not a carpenter or dyi type of guy, unfortunately, and the ship carpenters went out of fashion in Sweden 100 years ago. Those with handy man skills, electricians, carpenters, metal guys, make fortunes here.

[tommysb]

Pal,

I can comment here from firsthand experience, and I would say just go for it, with some caveats. You are clearly throwing yourself into this hobby. And also seem to be a guy who likes data and details, so here's what I can tell you.

I used a newly coopered 25L Portuguese oak barrel. Grade 2 Char. From JDias in Espinho. Not sure which cooperage you are thinking to get from, let me know here or send a PM if you can!

Filled the barrel 7/9/2022, with a 50% corn, 25% wheat, 25%barley mix. A high wheat high barley grainbill basically.
I drew a sample before Sao Joao, the next year, 23/6/2023 and refilled it. So 9 months in barrel.

After maybe those first 9 months, in barrel, the whiskey was way over-oaked. Astringent, oaky, not great to be honest.
I pulled half out, and proofed it down with new make, to make something drinkable to take to a Sao Joao party. Was 'fine', but not perfect. Then left that original 9 month stuff blended with newmake for another 6-9 months, before I needed to do something with that. Then the barrel sat, empty, until June this year.

I filled in June with malted barley new make. After 6 months in the barrel, the product is REALLY GOOD. I have just drawn that and blended with product from a 100L barrel, also aged 6 months. If you think of scotch single malt, they often use ex-bourbon barrels, so I guess I was doing the same, on a different scale.

Your first fill will be too oaky. Accept it. Your second fill will probably be over oaky too. Your third fill....will be excellent.

[PalCabral]

Pal,

I can comment here from firsthand experience, and I would say just go for it, with some caveats. You are clearly throwing yourself into this hobby. And also seem to be a guy who likes data and details, so here's what I can tell you.

I used a newly coopered 25L Portuguese oak barrel. Grade 2 Char. From JDias in Espinho. Not sure which cooperage you are thinking to get from, let me know here or send a PM if you can!

Filled the barrel 7/9/2022, with a 50% corn, 25% wheat, 25%barley mix. A high wheat high barley grainbill basically.
I drew a sample before Sao Joao, the next year, 23/6/2023 and refilled it. So 9 months in barrel.

After maybe those first 9 months, in barrel, the whiskey was way over-oaked. Astringent, oaky, not great to be honest.
I pulled half out, and proofed it down with new make, to make something drinkable to take to a Sao Joao party. Was 'fine', but not perfect. Then left that original 9 month stuff blended with newmake for another 6-9 months, before I needed to do something with that. Then the barrel sat, empty, until June this year.

I filled in June with malted barley new make. After 6 months in the barrel, the product is REALLY GOOD. I have just drawn that and blended with product from a 100L barrel, also aged 6 months. If you think of scotch single malt, they often use ex-bourbon barrels, so I guess I was doing the same, on a different scale.

Your first fill will be too oaky. Accept it. Your second fill will probably be over oaky too. Your third fill....will be excellent.

Great sharing, Tom! I appreciate it. So making a bit too much Whiskey and then rotating could be a way of not getting too much oak for the first year. Or just be ready with something younger, less oaked. Good input, but maybe you invertedly pushed me to Badmos?

Funny you talk of São João. It's such a big thing. It's the saint of Braga too, people go bananas. Where I come from, these things just don't exist, so when I'm with the family and it's the most important thing in the world it makes realize how important traditions are. Like carneval. Funny.

Next time I'm in Terra Mãe I will make a point of stopping by!

[Powder Monkey]

I’ll echo TommySBs experience. I have used three different 5g Gibbs barrels. First one was a #3 char that aged bourbon for a year in the attic storage space of my pole barn. 45th parallel, humid summers and dry winter. I lost 10% to the angels. It was drinkable but overly tannic. I have it continuing to maturate in a SS 5g keg. It’s rounded out some but I usually use if for blends.

I made bourbon for a friends wedding and did two new 5g with same recipe one char 3 and one char 4. Aged 8 months, feb-sept in my greenhouse. I don’t recall the angels share exactly but maybe 5ish.

Both of these proof increased about 2 points as I recall. This was similar for a second batch in the first barrel which aged 9 mo. I think entry proof was between 105-115 for my different batches.

Since then I’ve used them for a rum project (18mo age) and I just filled another with a white wheat/white corn batch.

For small scale economics it’s a no brainer to get a couple in your situation. For first fill I’d check them monthly after 6 months, lean more conservative for age and continue maturation in an inert container. Subsequent fills are more rounded.

If you’re concerned with excess angels consider options to mediate humidity or try bottling at higher proof and top off with water as it ages.

[Powder Monkey]

Another thought. I’ve leaned towards 15g size barrels now for a balance in volume/SA/angels size. They’re work to fill up but since I upgraded my set up it’s reasonable. New the price for 5, 10, 15g is close. But what I really went to was used 15g barrels. They have plenty of life left, cheaper than new and can add staves if I want new wood influence.

I say that to inquire with your cooper to see if that size is an option, if you can reasonably fill one. Second I don’t know the small format used barre market in Sweden (I guess it doesn’t exist but what do I know). But you could look into it/other European source where shipping might not kill you.

[PalCabral]

Thanks, PowderMonkey. Food for thoughts.

15g=57L that's a lot of spirits for me to produce. For a spirit run I tend to distill 30-35L low wines, just shy of 10g. That gives me about 8L product. I could of course make more low wines, the boiler fills 45-50L/12.5g. But it's still a lot of runs for me to get there, I was thinking it could be a darn chore just to fill a 5g barrel with the same spirit.

But you gave something to think about when it comes to used barrels. My cooper in Portugal sells used 5g barrels too, reconditioned American white oak and French oak, from the wine industry. They've been used to hold red wine. That could be an alternative. I wonder how much wine flavors comes through?

[tommysb]

A used American red wine in that size would be perfect Pal. Get one if you can!

[Fletching]

I religiously use Gibbs 5 gallon barrels.

My personal experience is getting 3 uses out of one before it looses most flavor impact. This is just my personal preference.

Time frame I typically age with these barrels per use:
1st Fill: 6 Months
2nd Fill: 1 Year
3rd Fill: 2 Years

On the 4th fill, I have just used it as general storage of already finished whiskey to pull from. It doesn’t seem like there is a whole lot of flavor to gain after the 3rd fill.

[PalCabral]

I religiously use Gibbs 5 gallon barrels.

My personal experience is getting 3 uses out of one before it looses most flavor impact. This is just my personal preference.

Time frame I typically age with these barrels per use:
1st Fill: 6 Months
2nd Fill: 1 Year
3rd Fill: 2 Years

On the 4th fill, I have just used it as general storage of already finished whiskey to pull from. It doesn’t seem like there is a whole lot of flavor to gain after the 3rd fill.

Thanks, Fletching! Sounds like a reasonable split. It seems 3-4 years is what they got in them. How do you use the barrel after the 4th year? Do you add sticks to it for more maturation or just let it be a passive storage vessel?

[Powder Monkey]

I wonder how much wine flavors comes through?

I have no direct experience, but check out my picture posted on my recoopering thread. The wine only penetrated a bit and if the barrels have been reconditioned they may be down to nearly new wood vs just a used “neutral wine barrel”. It’s fitting because I was reading a bit about this today. Some places scrape/plane to new wood. Others pressure wash/chemical cleaning. So inquire how they are refurbished. I know the lower alcohol content of wine can cause issues if not filled in a certain timeframe (bacterial growth/vinegar flavors etc) so they’re preserved with sulfur or ozone. Another point of inquiry.

Informative reading below.

https://www.rewinebarrels.com/renewed-barrels-v1

[PalCabral]

Resurrecting this old thread, because I wanted to bounce off my ideas. I am still a newbie when it comes to barrels so I would appreciate more of the same type of input as above.

This summer, while in Portugal, I got the 20L/5g barrel mentioned above and brought it home. It's made from refurbished American white oak, so the oak is not new but the staves have been shaved so the new make can get contact with untouched oak. It's got Medium toast and Char level 2. I have no idea how many years such a barrel will be active but based on Fletching's experience from new 5g barrels above, I am thinking that after 3 years of use, I should be expecting a decline in impact. Time will tell, I guess.

My plan is to use the new barrel in a staggered approach, cautious not to over-oak the Whiskey inside it. The below figures are estimates, in the end I will judge the length of the aging by taste and color, not by following a preset plan.
- First fill: 3-5 months
- Second fill: 6-8 months
- Third fill: 9-12 months

In my first fill I wanted to test out a low barrel entry proof. My thinking is that the whiskey will be in the barrel for a relatively short time, so if I'm not happy with the results it will not have enough time to ruin the taste. But I am really interested to hear your thoughts about barrel entry proof in the above regimen. Copperhead Road suggested 65% ABV as entry proof, for example.

In all above scenarios, I will have an additional 5-8L/1.3-2g of the same whiskey in jars. Half ways through the aging, I will take all of the whiskey out of the barrel and mix it with the additional jar-based whiskey, and then refill for the remaining period. This will also cover for any evaporation losses I might have.

If I get my 30L barrel leak free, see viewtopic.php?t=96196, my plan is to use it as the secondary whiskey storage container. Once I pull the whiskey from the active 20L barrel, I will transfer it to the 30L barrel, which I assume will not be active. I will use the 30L barrel where the oxidation and maturation of the whiskey will continue. If I'm not happy with the oak flavors I can add a one or two new toasted and charred oak sticks to the 30L barrel, to make this secondary storage a bit more active. Basically, my 30L barrel will be my finishing barrel but without imparting much additional flavor.

In my set up, filling up a 20L barrel, plus having another 5-10L/1.3-2.5g spare, is a volume change how I run my projects today. With feints available, I can fill the barrel with 6-7 stripping runs and 2 spirit runs, but without feints to start with I will needs to make 9-10 stripping runs and 3 spirit runs. Considering I only have two 60L/15g fermentation barrels, this makes it a 3 months' project. I am used to do much shorter projects and lower volumes.

Love to hear your thoughts.

[subbrew]

No personal experience but I have talked to some of the craft distillers in my area. Most of them started out with 5 gal barrels for whiskey. They all aged about a year. This was to get fast aging so they could get product out and cash flow in. I have had drinks from them and they were all good. Not over oaked. Because of the short aging they had done fairly narrow cuts so not very complex drinks but good. All that to say I think you will find you need more barrel time than your plan based in what I saw from the craft distillers.

[Username]

Just pulled a drop from my 10L barrel over the weekend.

This went into the barrel at 60% abv and has been proofed down to 45% over the last few days.
Only 2 months in and you can see the colour pick up has been pretty good.
Nice oak on the nose as well. But I'm happy to leave it run for another while.

Your barrel being twice as big will help a lot I'm sure, but I'd be checking in on it from a few months in

20260922_181457.jpg

Edit: when I think about it, some of the whiskey that went into the barrel had been sitting on sticks, but the majority of it was white

[Powder Monkey]

I have tended towards lower entry proofs 105-115 with several barrels. My recent batches, with used barrels that will age longer I’ve done higher 120-125, with a plan to slow proof down with water as the angels take their tax. Theoretically this would have a “range” of proofs extracting different compounds. My theory is it would be the “best of both”. I don’t have results yet.

My other consideration if it is used oak is to use a different proof than what the previous batch was aged in. I don’t know how much this matters if it was scraped to new wood, but I based this on scotch preferring to age two points higher than bourbon standard. Am I skeptical two proof points makes a discernible difference? Yes. But I think a “different” proof is a consideration.

[Bolverk]

Ive spoken with a few pros and the consensus i got was 30-36 days (depending on wood porosity and environment) per gal on new oak regardless of the barrel size.

[PalCabral]

No personal experience but I have talked to some of the craft distillers in my area. Most of them started out with 5 gal barrels for whiskey. They all aged about a year. This was to get fast aging so they could get product out and cash flow in. I have had drinks from them and they were all good. Not over oaked. Because of the short aging they had done fairly narrow cuts so not very complex drinks but good. All that to say I think you will find you need more barrel time than your plan based in what I saw from the craft distillers.

Interesting, subbrew. It conflicts with what a lot of members have said here that new 5g barrels over-oak very quickly. Hmm. I don't think I would dare to let the maturation in the barrel go further if I feel the oak is taking over.

Just pulled a drop from my 10L barrel over the weekend.

This went into the barrel at 60% abv and has been proofed down to 45% over the last few days.
Only 2 months in and you can see the colour pick up has been pretty good.
Nice oak on the nose as well. But I'm happy to leave it run for another while.

Your barrel being twice as big will help a lot I'm sure, but I'd be checking in on it from a few months in

20260922_181457.jpg

Edit: when I think about it, some of the whiskey that went into the barrel had been sitting on sticks, but the majority of it was white

My plan is to check the content every months or more often.

I have tended towards lower entry proofs 105-115 with several barrels. My recent batches, with used barrels that will age longer I’ve done higher 120-125, with a plan to slow proof down with water as the angels take their tax. Theoretically this would have a “range” of proofs extracting different compounds. My theory is it would be the “best of both”. I don’t have results yet.

This is or will be my approach also.

Ive spoken with a few pros and the consensus i got was 30-36 days (depending on wood porosity and environment) per gal on new oak regardless of the barrel size.

Interesting. It kinda matches my plan for the first fill. 30 days x 5g = 5 months.

[Deplorable]

There is a small distillery here in town, that still uses a number of 5-gallon barrels, mainly for their "Barrel Club" members. Those barrels average about 10 months on first fill. Members who choose to refill the barrel run them on the 2nd fill for about 12 to 14 months, same on a 3rd fill. It seems that none of their members use them past a 3rd fill. Environmental factors play a big part in how long you can leave spirits in a new 5G barrel. I suspect that in the PNW we can get away with longer durations than Tennessee and Kentucky.

[8Ball]

My 5G Gibbs cask is currently on its 5th fill with rum that was aged in glass for at least 12 months. In a couple months, I’ll pull half of it to continue aging in glass & replenish drinking stock as needed. I’ll top off again with 12 month or better glass aged rum & repeat.

I’m doing something very similar with my perpetual solera 10G Gibbs that is exclusively bourbon only. The annual draw & top off is about 20% volume plus angel share. It too continues to age in glass until needed to replace drinking stock.

[PalCabral]

My 5G Gibbs cask is currently on its 5th fill with rum that was aged in glass for at least 12 months. In a couple months, I’ll pull half of it to continue aging in glass & replenish drinking stock as needed. I’ll top off again with 12 month or better glass aged rum & repeat.

I’m doing something very similar with my perpetual solera 10G Gibbs that is exclusively bourbon only. The annual draw & top off is about 20% volume plus angel share. It too continues to age in glass until needed to replace drinking stock.

Are you using the same recipe for your Bourbons going into your Solera, or is it something of an infinity barrel solera, 8Ball?

I've been thinking that my 5g barrel will go into pension housing rums in the future. Your strategy with pull and refill seems pretty solid.

[PalCabral]

There is a small distillery here in town, that still uses a number of 5-gallon barrels, mainly for their "Barrel Club" members. Those barrels average about 10 months on first fill. Members who choose to refill the barrel run them on the 2nd fill for about 12 to 14 months, same on a 3rd fill. It seems that none of their members use them past a 3rd fill. Environmental factors play a big part in how long you can leave spirits in a new 5G barrel. I suspect that in the PNW we can get away with longer durations than Tennessee and Kentucky.

Your experience corresponds with the feedback subbrew gave. Maybe the difference is the environment, as you are suggesting, Deplorable? The climate in the Nordics is not something that promotes fast aging. More similar to Scottish climate, just colder and less damp.

[Deplorable]

My own experience in the Northwest corner of the US where our weather is mild, has only been with used 5 gallon oak barrels and new Badmo barrels.
I find that after the 3rd use on a 5 gallon barrel, it needs supplemental oak sticks added, and I lose about a gallon over the course of 18-20 months.
My Badmo barrels need 3 years on the first use for my liking, but losses are minimal. It seems I lose more to sampling along the way than to actual evaporation.

[8Ball]

… Are you using the same recipe for your Bourbons going into your Solera, or is it something of an infinity barrel solera, 8Ball?

No, different recipes, so each year it is a new, aged flavor. So yea, infinity, perpetual, whatever as long as it is all grain sour mash bourbon at least a year old going in. Been doing this a couple years now and it is a great day in December to look forward to. Fire pit, grilled & smoked food, drinks, a few friends and relatives & everyone goes home full & happy with a few bottles to enjoy during the wait for the next time we do it.

[PalCabral]

My own experience in the Northwest corner of the US where our weather is mild, has only been with used 5 gallon oak barrels and new Badmo barrels.
I find that after the 3rd use on a 5 gallon barrel, it needs supplemental oak sticks added, and I lose about a gallon over the course of 18-20 months.
My Badmo barrels need 3 years on the first use for my liking, but losses are minimal. It seems I lose more to sampling along the way than to actual evaporation.

A week ago I took in my Badmo barrel from the shed and emptied it. It contains my wheated Bourbon. I just wanted to inspect it. It's been in there for 7 months and the color was yellow. After 7 months in a jar with an oak stick the color is brown, so Badmo working as expected. The flavor was also still young, unrefined, and definitely not impacted much by the oak. It's a Medium toast Char 2 barrel. I had only lost 35cl/12oz so far, which was lower than I had expected. I suppose the climate in the shed has not been promoting a lot of evaporation?

I topped up with diluted unaged whiskey from the same batch to lower the ABV from 62% to 60%, and refilled it. It will stay in the Badmo for 3-4 years and this first year I will recoup any angel losses with unaged whiskey. Then I'll just let the whiskey be. However, winter is coming here and the barrel will stay in the basement for until April. More even temps around 18-20C - will be interesting to see if that changes the evaporation at all.

[PalCabral]

Been doing this a couple years now and it is a great day in December to look forward to. Fire pit, grilled & smoked food, drinks, a few friends and relatives & everyone goes home full & happy with a few bottles to enjoy during the wait for the next time we do it.

Sounds like a really nice tradition, 8Ball!