3" x 3' column wishful thinking?

[BigSwede]

I've got a lot of copper bobs and bits that, when put together, can make either a VM, LM, or a pot still, depending on the task or my mood at the moment. All of them are 2".

Boiler is 13 gallon, 3" tri-clamp output, single 240V element 5500W. I've got a decent Reflux condenser (12" long shotgun, 2" dia, 7 x 0.5" internals) and a product condenser with a similar configuration.

Tucked away in my diminishing copper stash is a 3" diameter pipe, but only 36" (1 meter) long. I don't know what to do with it. I could turn it into a short column. Years ago, I soldered a 3" to 2" adapter to it, but then put it away. As a packed column, theory says output rate should go up, but purity will probably suffer, being as short as it is. I think I have the power and cooling capacity.

I'm wondering if it would be a waste of time to pack it and use it. Thoughts?

[Corn Cracker]

Pack it and add a sight glass or 2 (8 inches each) with some bubble plates

[Salt Must Flow]

Maybe you would have a chance if it were full of SPP, but it would be guaranteed success with 2'-3' more packed column. You can find 3" stainless steel exhaust pipe on Amazon for a reasonable price. I built a 4" VM using stainless exhaust pipe and it worked great. It's the same OD as Tri-Clamp ferrules, but the pipe is thinner.

[MooseMan]

I can't say what effect the step down from 3" to 2" in a column would do but it must surely have a negative effect in this scenario, it's a massive reduction in surface area so would speed up vapor considerably, although packing changes all that of course, so it's complicated.

If I had that length of 3" and were looking to build a better reflux column I'd get some 3" SS exhaust as Salt Must Flow suggests, to add another section of height, then get a 3" SS tee, and use your existing 2" VM parts from there.

That will get you a considerably higher LPH neutral than the 2" you have.

SMF you've driven a 3" column right?
What were you getting in output and what power needed?

[Corn Cracker]

Build out what you have on hand and learn it, get and add more if you need it. If your going a neutral, 2 or 4 is supposed to be better from my reading, if your going for flavor, 3 inch is supposed to be the sweet spot.
None of that info has been HD approved but, I've done a LOT of reading and that's just my conclusion

[GrumbleStill]

Kinda like Cracker said, give it a go, it won’t do any harm, and it might set you on the road to something real good.

You’ll only need to run your 5500W element at 1/2 load to drive it, and the 2” condensers should handle that easily enough. You should be able to get at least 2 lph from it, probably more.

If you don’t hit your proof targets, no worries, just add a bit more length, or put a 4” plate or two underneath it.

Have a bit of fun with it.

Cheers

[Saltbush Bill]

If your going a neutral, 2 or 4 is supposed to be better from my reading, if your going for flavor, 3 inch is supposed to be the sweet spot.

Not sure were you've read that or who came to that conclusion.

[BigSwede]

Thanks guys, good stuff. My mind runs along a fixed path in that I see a tube, it's a column. It would be so simple to just add another 2 feet with a cheap 3" SS section if I want purity and output.

I'd not do 3" LM. My 2" VM head is a slide-valve design that goes from closed to a full bore 2" dia when wide open, so I think if used at the top of 3", there'd not be any issues with vapor velocity.

I could add more 3" and give it a try as a packed column. I could fabricate a couple of plate sections, add those. Or I could chop up the SOB and make a mini flute or something. All I've done to date is pot/strip or packed reflux. Maybe it's time to try some plates and have a bit of fun.

[SW_Shiner]

How often do you run your current reflux setup? And if you made a bigger one, would you use it more?
If you did go the plate route, it could be designed with the plates being removable. Then they can be removed, and the column packed to be run as a packed reflux still if you wanted to.

[Salt Must Flow]

I can't say what effect the step down from 3" to 2" in a column would do but it must surely have a negative effect in this scenario, it's a massive reduction in surface area so would speed up vapor considerably, although packing changes all that of course, so it's complicated.

If I had that length of 3" and were looking to build a better reflux column I'd get some 3" SS exhaust as Salt Must Flow suggests, to add another section of height, then get a 3" SS tee, and use your existing 2" VM parts from there.

That will get you a considerably higher LPH neutral than the 2" you have.

SMF you've driven a 3" column right?
What were you getting in output and what power needed?

I was operating at 2750W and getting just over 3 LPH.

MY 3" VM used a 2" tee and a 3" reflux condenser. The 2" tee shown below looks larger because it is insulated.

VM Head.jpg

[BigSwede]

How often do you run your current reflux setup? And if you made a bigger one, would you use it more?
If you did go the plate route, it could be designed with the plates being removable. Then they can be removed, and the column packed to be run as a packed reflux still if you wanted to.

I think the simplest first step would be to just try it. Even if I didn't get a theoretical highest output rate, with some power manipulation and patience, maybe I can get an acceptable neutral faster than my 2". I'm not looking for Azeo, just for something that tastes decent with a respectable ABV.

If I had kilos of SPP... but I don't. Probably scrubbies or lava.

I don't think vapor velocity would be a problem. Might be wrong, but the way my system is set up (slide-valve) should minimize it.

If it sucks or not worth it, it'd be very easy to just extend the column, pack more, or maybe add plates for a cool hybrid system.

[Corn Cracker]

Ahh, all my research has been for a 3 inch whiskey/bourbon column, I have a 2 inch ccvm to use for neutrals, and if SBB is right and the 3 inch is trash, I'll scrap it and buy grains i reckon but, from my readings, 3 inch with 2 plates is a good choice for me and a full flavored, cleaner product with a 1 and done run

[SW_Shiner]

How often do you run your current reflux setup? And if you made a bigger one, would you use it more?
If you did go the plate route, it could be designed with the plates being removable. Then they can be removed, and the column packed to be run as a packed reflux still if you wanted to.

I think the simplest first step would be to just try it. Even if I didn't get a theoretical highest output rate, with some power manipulation and patience, maybe I can get an acceptable neutral faster than my 2". I'm not looking for Azeo, just for something that tastes decent with a respectable ABV.

If I had kilos of SPP... but I don't. Probably scrubbies or lava.

I don't think vapor velocity would be a problem. Might be wrong, but the way my system is set up (slide-valve) should minimize it.

If it sucks or not worth it, it'd be very easy to just extend the column, pack more, or maybe add plates for a cool hybrid system.

Id say its definitely worth trying out any way, if you can. I did that, and its remained since. I had about 3.5' of 3", put a ferrule on each end, made a screen for the bottom and filled it with lava rock. I had another spool and some sight glass segments that i build up and fill with scrubbies. I liked it so much I made a new Boka head for it. Using scrubbies makes it easier to disassemble the top sections without making a mess of lava rock everywhere.

[SW_Shiner]

And if you decide its not worth it, cut the ferrules off at the right length and you've already half made two sections for a plated column.

[Saltbush Bill]

If your going a neutral, 2 or 4 is supposed to be better from my reading, if your going for flavor, 3 inch is supposed to be the sweet spot.

Not sure were you've read that or who came to that conclusion.

and if SBB is right and the 3 inch is trash, I'll scrap it and buy grains i reckon but, from my readings,

I dont think I ever said anything was trash, what I was commenting on was the fact that you said that for neutral 2 or 4 inch is better and 3 inch is better for flavour?
Or have I read and understood that incorrectly ?
if I did read it right the fact that 3 isnt good for neutral is complete BS, I run a 3 inch Boka and it will run azeo all day every day, with a much better output speed than 2 inch will ever do.
I wouldnt build a four inch reflux still for neutral even if someone else bought the materials for me, the amount of packing needed, and the height to diameter ratio needed just for a couple of reasons. The height and weight of the thing alone would be enough to turn me off.
How 3 inch is better and a sweet spot for flavour and where you found that information is also beyond me.
Id be interested to know how and why this is so.

[SW_Shiner]

Its sounds like you're also comparing very different styles of column. Neutral is generally run through a packed column, while flavour through a plated column. So if the goal is neutral, then it doesn't make sense to go from a 2" packed column to a 3" plated column. Same thing if you were after flavour, it doesn't make sense to upgrade from a 3" plated column to a 4" packed column.

[Yummyrum]

Sorry Corny , but I’m also going to concur with Salty and Shiner .
2” packed for neutral is slow , but gets the job done .
4” packed for neutral is great if you have a high ceiling ( or don’t mind running it outside and having a ladder up to the roof to control it . Uses a fuckton of power and needs at least 1000gal of water to do a run . IE , not very Home distiller friendly .

A 3” packed still for Neutrals sits nicely in between . Good product speed , practical height . Moderate power requirements and water usage .

When it comes to plates for flavour , 2” are generally described as running very slow to make a drinkable product . Most that have tried say it doesn’t make a nice product .

4” is a far better size and operates at a reasonable rate with modest power and water consumption . 3” platers are again in between . If you don’t mind running them slow , you’ll get a good product . All the while wishing you had made a 4”

[Corn Cracker]

Yummy, your post said the just of what I was going to reply. SB, of all the negative you've mentioned about 3 inch I've noticed over the years, I've never heard of your 3 inch boka, not even when I first started building and you talked me out of making a 2 inch boka.

Look, I was just trying ease BigSwedes mind on a 3 inch build from materials on hand, it will work fine, I'm building more for flavor and did not realize he was not. I guess that's where the confusion started, my fault.
Big, 60 inches of packed 3 inch should get you azeo at a little slower rate than 4 inch with a lot less power but, much more efficiently than 2. So maybe a little of the SS exhaust pipe and some copper mesh will get you where your wanting to be

[BigSwede]

Big, 60 inches of packed 3 inch should get you azeo at a little slower rate than 4 inch with a lot less power but, much more efficiently than 2. So maybe a little of the SS exhaust pipe and some copper mesh will get you where your wanting to be

Corn, I was basically wondering what to do with this hunk of copper pipe! I thought of just dropping on my VM/RC/PC right on top of it, since it was already fitted with a 3" to 2". Would the product be swill? Would lower purity make any speed increase pointless? I'll probably try it once and see.

But the more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to just chop it up for some small plated sections. My tastes are moving away from neutrals (except gin, love trying to improve on gin, so many variations) - I'd really like to get more into grains, which frankly intimidate me. 3" is small for any sort of plated setup, but what the heck, I like to experiment.

I'm daydreaming about machining a set of dies for a hydraulic press, whereby you drop in a section of annealed pipe, run the press, and have it form a flat flange on the end which would mate with the next section, and having a PTFE or good silicone gasket to seal. This would avoid a ton of brazing expensive tri-clamp adapters onto individual sections.

[Corn Cracker]

From my understanding, 3 inch with a couple of plates should get ya in 140 to 150 range, good for flavor retention, add a couple of plates and bump the proof a little if ya want. Reducing to 3 inch at the top isn't a bad thing, you should be able get a good one and done run with that setup. Grains aren't much to be worried with, un-malted, raw grains may need high heat to be pasteurized, cracked corn is the biggest gateway, ime.

[Salt Must Flow]

I would break out my 3" VM, set it up with 3' of packed column and run it for a bit to see how it goes, but I just did my seasonal run a few weeks ago.

Now that I think about it, I just checked my Feints keg and it's full. I could do some testing with the 3" if you want. Afterwards I can dump the product back, switch to my 4" and complete the all Feints run. It wouldn't be an 'apples to apples' test compared to running Low Wines, but you should get an idea of power input, take-off rate and % ABV. Our packing may differ as well.

[BigSwede]

SMF, anything you did along those lines would be appreciated, so long as it wouldn't interfere with your preferred way of doing things.

I have nothing to run right now... I'm still in the process of breaking stuff out, cleaning, repairing. I need to do cleaning and sac runs since my components are filthy from storage.

In my years away from the hobby, my tastes have changed a bit, and I realize I want to pursue some differing flavor profiles. I think friends and family would like that too. We'll see where this goes.

[Salt Must Flow]

SMF, anything you did along those lines would be appreciated, so long as it wouldn't interfere with your preferred way of doing things.

I have nothing to run right now... I'm still in the process of breaking stuff out, cleaning, repairing. I need to do cleaning and sac runs since my components are filthy from storage.

In my years away from the hobby, my tastes have changed a bit, and I realize I want to pursue some differing flavor profiles. I think friends and family would like that too. We'll see where this goes.

The boiler is full of diluted Feints and I'm setting up the 3" VM with 3' of packing (Lava Rock) right now. I'm not sure when I'll get around to actually testing it out, but I'll have it ready to go.

If your equipment is just dusty, has cobwebs and stuff like that, I'd just rinse it out real good. Maybe a little scrubbing or whatever required, but I wouldn't bother doing a cleaning & sac run all over again. I would only do that if I had reason to believe that oil, grease, flux or something really nasty contaminated the interior.

[Yummyrum]

I'm daydreaming about machining a set of dies for a hydraulic press, whereby you drop in a section of annealed pipe, run the press, and have it form a flat flange on the end which would mate with the next section, and having a PTFE or good silicone gasket to seal. This would avoid a ton of brazing expensive tri-clamp adapters onto individual sections.

Can be done BigSwede
When Emptyglass was running his still making business , he made them . Apparently it took him hundreds of hours and many attempts before he got it right . Mind you , if you just wanted a flat flange , it might be a a lot easier .

IMG_4394.jpeg

IMG_4393.jpeg

[Salt Must Flow]

I'm daydreaming about machining a set of dies for a hydraulic press, whereby you drop in a section of annealed pipe, run the press, and have it form a flat flange on the end which would mate with the next section, and having a PTFE or good silicone gasket to seal. This would avoid a ton of brazing expensive tri-clamp adapters onto individual sections.

Can be done BigSwede
When Emptyglass was running his still making business , he made them . Apparently it took him hundreds of hours and many attempts before he got it right . Mind you , if you just wanted a flat flange , it might be a a lot easier .

IMG_4394.jpegIMG_4393.jpeg

I'd bet the shape of that flange is for rigidity because the copper is relatively thin and obviously soft.

[shadylane]

I'd bet the shape of that flange is for rigidity because the copper is relatively thin and obviously soft.

Copper gets surprisingly tough after it's been work hardened.
Back in the days when copper ferules were unavailable, it was common for us to make our own.
Now days it's easier and often cheaper to buy one from amazon, solder it on and be done with it.

[BigSwede]

I'm daydreaming about machining a set of dies for a hydraulic press, whereby you drop in a section of annealed pipe, run the press, and have it form a flat flange on the end which would mate with the next section, and having a PTFE or good silicone gasket to seal. This would avoid a ton of brazing expensive tri-clamp adapters onto individual sections.

Can be done BigSwede
When Emptyglass was running his still making business , he made them . Apparently it took him hundreds of hours and many attempts before he got it right . Mind you , if you just wanted a flat flange , it might be a a lot easier .

THAT is beautiful! He even got the recess for a standard tri-clamp gasket. I was thinking purely of a flat flange, a flat gasket, and some sort of clamping system. Unless you get enough of the 20 degree TC "meat" on the outer rim, clamping would be a problem with the standard jobs.

I'm guessing Emptyglass had a much beefier (and professional) hydraulic press than my little shop press. I might be able to make a flattened rim, no way to make something that nice.

One last option would be to spin the rim in a lathe, but there's artistry involved there that I don't have. It's fun to think of ways to do it. I know soldering or brazing ferrules is standard and easy, and not expensive if using stainless, but an elegant solution like his is appealing.

If your equipment is just dusty, has cobwebs and stuff like that, I'd just rinse it out real good. Maybe a little scrubbing or whatever required, but I wouldn't bother doing a cleaning & sac run all over again. I would only do that if I had reason to believe that oil, grease, flux or something really nasty contaminated the interior.

SMF, I think you're probably right, thanks. Stuff was boxed. Lots of patina on the outside, the insides look decent enough.

[Saltbush Bill]

Correct BigSwede, they were made that way to accept standard triflange gaskets and triclamps,
He made them in both 4 inch and six.
He gave me some to try out on my six inch plated column build, they work very well.
But as Yumy said , there was a whole lot more to setting up to press them than you might think.

[Windy City]

If I had kilos of SPP... but I don't. Probably scrubbies or lava.

Do you still have your SPP machine and can you make larger SPP

[BigSwede]

If I had kilos of SPP... but I don't. Probably scrubbies or lava.

Do you still have your SPP machine and can you make larger SPP

This is what I found of the machine after a water leak while it was stored...

SPPdead1.jpg

All the bits in the little rack were wrecked. Worse, the servo that drove it, the collet system, all ruined. I scrapped it. One of those things that happens.