Toasted flaked grains

[Dan P.]

I can get toasted flaked rye for fairly cheap. Not flaked as in the stuff for animals, but toasted flaked.
It's used for cereal or something, human food grade.

Anybody used it?

I ask because I can find pretty much nothing on what temperature it's toasted at, and I might just be left with 20kg mostly unfermentable grain.

But otherwise seems like it would make a nice drop.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about; let's be clear, I probably don't know what I'm talking about either, but I believe above a certain temperature some carbohydrates get converted into unfermentable sugars, dextrins or something, cf crystal malts, chocolate malts etc

[Corn Cracker]

Im sure it would be similar to mashing corn or bran flakes, theres recipes on here

[MooseMan]

I can get toasted flaked rye for fairly cheap. Not flaked as in the stuff for animals, but toasted flaked.
It's used for cereal or something, human food grade.

Anybody used it?

I ask because I can find pretty much nothing on what temperature it's toasted at, and I might just be left with 20kg mostly unfermentable grain.

But otherwise seems like it would make a nice drop.

In case you don't know what I'm talking about; let's be clear, I probably don't know what I'm talking about either, but I believe above a certain temperature some carbohydrates get converted into unfermentable sugars, dextrins or something, cf crystal malts, chocolate malts etc

Even if it's been taken past the point that it won't provide any meaningful sugars Dan, I bet it would act as a great specialty grain addition?

Do you have any enzymes or even YLAY that you could do an experimental batch with?

[Dan P.]

Even if it's been taken past the point that it won't provide any meaningful sugars Dan, I bet it would act as a great specialty grain addition?

Do you have any enzymes or even YLAY that you could do an experimental batch with?

I would just use malt to convert it. The thing is, it's 20kg or nothing, and Mrs. P has an ever diminishing tolerance for my sacks and tubs of weird ingredients. Might give it a punt anyway; can always boost with dextrose if it's no good.

[MooseMan]

If it's cheap enough, go for it man.
As you say you can boost it if you get low conversion, but it might be a great flavour provider.

[PalCabral]

I would treat the toasted flaked rye as a specialty grain, as Moose suggested, but not as the main fermentable. It may, as you are concerned about, not be fully fermentable, but still add a really nice flavor to the mash.

[Dan P.]

I've ordered some, I'll let you know how it goes!

[SW_Shiner]

Surely if it is meant for human consumption it wouldn't have been toasted to the point of destroying the insides. If it is meant for brewing, as a small flavour adding grain, then it may have been taken further during the toast.
Im unaware of what exact brand you have available, but everything i can find around me just looks like rolled/flaked oats. I dont think id have any concerns mashing with it.

[MooseMan]

I've ordered some, I'll let you know how it goes!

Please keep us up to date on it Dan, you could well be onto something with this.

[Dan P.]

Surely if it is meant for human consumption it wouldn't have been toasted to the point of destroying the insides. If it is meant for brewing, as a small flavour adding grain, then it may have been taken further during the toast.
Im unaware of what exact brand you have available, but everything i can find around me just looks like rolled/flaked oats. I dont think id have any concerns mashing with it.

I was imagining toasted flakes were to micronised flakes as cornflakes (or even brewers' torrefied maize) are to micronised maize. In my head something a bit more like morning cereal.

Aaaaas is turns out, they arrived today, and there is absolutely nothing toasted about them, not that I can tell, anyway. Just rolled (and hopefully micronised) rye grain. Which is absolutely fine by me. I presume it was mislabelled.

[Dan P.]

I've ordered some, I'll let you know how it goes!

Please keep us up to date on it Dan, you could well be onto something with this.

Just micronised rye, as it turns out. No toasting apparent.

[MooseMan]

Oh, that's odd that they would use the word Toasted then.
All flaked grain is steamed or at least cooked in some way first, but from the description you'd expect it to be toasted after the flaking operation?

Still worth a go though if it's the right price!

[Dan P.]

Well, duh, just found the exact product, flaked toasted rye, on a brewing supply website, and it says;

Extract FG Min: 78%

Which I'm guessing is around the same as regular rye

[Dan P.]

Oh, that's odd that they would use the word Toasted then.
All flaked grain is steamed or at least cooked in some way first, but from the description you'd expect it to be toasted after the flaking operation?

Still worth a go though if it's the right price!

Who knows? The brewery supplies websites are generally quite particular in their distinctions between torrified vs flaked vs whatever, understandably as they're supposed to be an adjunct to beer, so you'd think there'd be a meaningful difference? As a distiller I am curious, and was tbh hoping for something with a darker/more cooked/mailllardized flavour, but as long as it ferments one way or another, I don't really mind. Anyway, I'm the proud owner of 40kg of it now!

[Username]

Who knows? The brewery supplies websites are generally quite particular in their distinctions between torrified vs flaked vs whatever, understandably as they're supposed to be an adjunct to beer, so you'd think there'd be a meaningful difference? As a distiller I am curious, and was tbh hoping for something with a darker/more cooked/mailllardized flavour, but as long as it ferments one way or another, I don't really mind. Anyway, I'm the proud owner of 40kg of it now!

Very easy toast it a bit yourself, on a tray in the oven works a treat

[Dan P.]

Very easy toast it a bit yourself, on a tray in the oven works a treat

Any temperature recommendations?

[Username]

I've had good success at 170-180C. Control how dark you want it with time or even by smell.
I've only ever toasted rolled oats, when they smell fantastic I pull them out, it's been a while so I'll let you be the judge of the timing

[Dan P.]

I've had good success at 170-180C. Control how dark you want it with time or even by smell.
I've only ever toasted rolled oats, when they smell fantastic I pull them out, it's been a while so I'll let you be the judge of the timing

Excellent, thanks!

[BALDR]

I was thinking of making an American malt whiskey for the 4th but never got around to it. This reading might give you a guide on temps.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10 ... ccess=true

[Dan P.]

Update; What an absolute fucking disaster! I’ve done rye before but this was something else! 6.5kg rye flakes, 1.5kg of distillers’ malt, 25 litres water. End result: a 25 litre block of sweet goo!

I’m sure my process could do with a good deal of improvement, will try again with more malt. In the end I divvied up into two 30l fermenters and made up the difference with dextrose.

It’s been a while since I’ve done all grain. Maybe someday I’ll learn that I should just use malt. So much simpler!

[shadylane]

Grain to water ratio of 2.76 pound per gallon is too high. Aim for 2lb/gal or a little under.
Malt to total grain ratio of 19% is good but I figure there was a problem during mashing, because the mash didn't thin down enough.
My 2 cents worth is to buy alpha and gluco enzymes if you're going to experiment to avoid getting thirsty.

[Dan P.]

Grain to water ratio of 2.76 pound per gallon is too high. Aim for 2lb/gal or a little under.
Malt to total grain ratio of 19% is good but I figure there was a problem during mashing, because the mash didn't thin down enough.
My 2 cents worth is to buy alpha and gluco enzymes if you're going to experiment to avoid getting thirsty.

Yes, no doubt a bit aspirational with the grain bill! I also just chucked the lot in the mash pot dry, whereas in the past I've soaked the rye before hand, which I think would help break it up in the case of these flakes, and in any case allow the enzymes to penetrate better. Unfortunately as it was the great bloc of not-very-well-converted rye was too stiff to work with any further. Which is to say, yes, there was a big problem with the mashing! I'll lower the grain bill over all and up the malt to 30% next time. Onwards and upwards!

[Dan P.]

Amongst other things, have just realised that UK/Irish distillers malt is not the same as US distillers malt. On the info sheet it does seem to have elevated diastatic power, but this side of the pond it's aimed for high extractability rather than high DP.

[Dan P.]

Well, I had to take a break from fermenting this recipe because the kids were off school for the summer and things got a little hectic. Also the unprecedented heat was making the ferments go weird- had a couple barrels that I though were fermenting for an unusual amount of time, I mean, they were fermenting, it just wasn't cervomyces or any other useful yeast doing it!

But anyway, thanks to @shadylane, I revised my mash bill to 50% malt and 50% flaked rye, 6kg per 25l barrel, and everything went as it should. Amazingly, even using 4kg flaked rye to 3kg malt, just one kg extra rye, made the mash and ferment weird and slimy and just on the wrong side of easily manageable. Fermented fine though, and I distil on the grain, so I didn't have to worry about sparging or straining or any of that carry on.

Main takeaways from this process is;
1. that I was overloading my mash bill, which in the past has been fine if just using barley malt
2. lads, make sure you are getting high diastatic malt, if that is what you want. Distillers malt can be that, but, certainly if you are in the UK, is not necessary that. Caveat emptor!

Lastly- these "toasted rye flakes" just appear to be rye flakes. No indication of any toastiness in either the grain nor the resulting spirit.

[PalCabral]

Amongst other things, have just realised that UK/Irish distillers malt is not the same as US distillers malt. On the info sheet it does seem to have elevated diastatic power, but this side of the pond it's aimed for high extractability rather than high DP.

This is only true for British distiller's malt. German distiller's malt is focused on DP.

[Dan P.]

This is only true for British distiller's malt. German distiller's malt is focused on DP.

Always worth checking though!

[PalCabral]

This is only true for British distiller's malt. German distiller's malt is focused on DP.

Always worth checking though!

Totally agree.