Town water dechlorination

[CoopsOz]

How do you guys treat your water? I'm pretty sure that not all of you are lucky enough to live by a fresh spring. I've read that if you put a tub of water in direct sunlight for a couple of hours....the UV will clean up the water. Is this correct? I'm off to google to find out

[wineo]

It depends on what their useing in the water.chlorine will go away by its self,and sunlight will speed this up.If there useing chloradimides then it wont go away by its self.1 camptin tablet will get rid of it in 5 gallons of water,but you are adding sulfites to your water.You can drive off the sulfites by airation of the water,{run a fish tank air pump,and a airstone}for 24hrs,if theres any left syphon the water through some copper line.It will get rid of sulfites,and sulfates.The only other way to get rid of chloradimides is reverse osmosis,as far as I know anyway.I dont worry about the stuff too much,because I cant tell the difference in taste.I have ran washes with it in the water,and used spring water for my wash.These were turbo 48 washes,and had the same amounts of everything,only changing the water source,I could not tell any difference in fermertation,or taste.Chlorine will boil off,so its easy to get rid of.
wineo

[Monster Mash]

I let my water stand 24 hours before use. I have compared it to pure distilled water batch and I can't tell the difference (I do add 2 teaspoons of gypsum per 6 gallons of water and I use 33% backset).

[theholymackerel]

One crushed Campden tablet will treat 20 gallons of water for chlorimides.

[wineo]

I stand corrected!I have read so much stuff out there,and got my numbers mixed up.Its a wonder my brain has not exploded.
Thanks for the correction. wineo

[msrorysdad]

I treat my water like a b****. I have an R.O. system but I make such a mess in the house I fill my fermentors with the hose outside. I've not had any issues with city water, that I will not drink

[junkyard dawg]

If you wanna get fancy, get a water filter housing and a 3/4" x hose thread connector for the input. what ever you want for the output. Mine has just a short piece of hose. A good quality carbon block filter and you can have good clean water at the end of your hose...

[triggernum5]

Aparently regular vitamin C tablets will neutralize Chlorine and cloramine....

[theholymackerel]

Aparently regular vitamin C tablets will neutralize Chlorine and cloramine....

Really? That would be cheap and easy.

Mind postin' a link to this info?

[triggernum5]

Had to scan some of this in from typed paper.. Hopefully the OCR didn't goof..

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This February, San Francisco and surrounding areas switched their drinking water disinfection from chlorine to chloramine. Chloramine, a chlorine-ammonia compound, is more stable in the water system than chlorine, and only slowly breaks down into chlorine and ammonia. While both methods, common nationwide, may sound ominous, there's little to worry about, except in special cases (chloraminated water in dialysis, fishtanks, and in certain business uses will need to be filtered, just as with chlorine). Chloraminated water can also cause rubber parts in household plumbing and water heaters to degrade more quickly. Chloramine-resistant replacement parts are available. 

As for the Slim-Line showerhead, though it is an effective solution to chlorinated water in the shower, which accounts for 50 percent or more of daily chlorine exposure, it doesn't eliminate chloramine. 

Chloramine disinfection, however, is preferable to chlorine for almost all uses: drinking, cooking, bathing, gardening, and pets. Your water's taste may improve, the carcinogens called trihalomethanes formed by chlorine will be reduced, and more pathogens will be removed due to chloramine's extra stability. As of January 1 of this year, the EPA has begun regulating chlorine, chloramines and byproduct levels in the drinking water of all communities, adding a nationwide level of oversight. Chlorine and chloramine levels are capped at 4 parts per million, but there is no cap set for ammonia. With San Francisco's chloramine program, however, chloramine and chlorine levels are capped at 2 ppm and ammonia at 0.5 ppm. 

Chloramine and the small amount of ammonia produced in breakdown are neutralized in digestion, but chlorine can lead to eye and nose irritation, anemia, stomach discomfort, and damaged hair and skin. While the EPA's regulation, and chloramine's stability, should minimize all these symptoms, there are solutions if you're still worried or if you're one of the special cases mentioned above. Standard water filtration will reduce but not eliminate chloramine and chlorine. While chlorine can be eliminated through boiling water or by letting it stand for a few days, neither method will eliminate chloramine. Slim-Line, made by Sprite Industries, is an effective solution to chlorinated water in the shower, which accounts for 50 percent or more of daily chlorine exposure; it doesn't eliminate chloramine. 

To eliminate chloramine, you need a high quality granular activated carbon filter or a dechloraminating agent; check with your physician if you're chemically sensitive and think you need to do so. Dialysis patients should also check with their doctors for water treatment instructions; according to the Central Coast Water Authority, they can drink, cook, and bathe in chloraminated water as usual—they just can't bring it into contact with their blood during dialysis itself. The Authority also notes that it's safe to wash a wound with chloraminated water, as little water enters the bloodstream. Fish owners can generally use the same chemicals they use to dechlorinate water; the chemicals should be labeled for chloramine as well as chlorine, so check the package.

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The chlorination of public drinking water has proven to be a significant breakthrough in the prevention of disease in humans. "The filtration of drinking water (plus the use of chlorine) is probably the most significant public health advance of the millennium", according to Life magazine. Chlorinated drinking water has probably saved more human lives than penicillin.

Chlorine, even in minute quantities, is toxic to fish and other aquatic life. The Safe Drinking Water Act requires the chlorination of most public water supplies, but at the same time, the Clean Water Act prohibits the discharge of chlorinated water into the environment. Furthermore, the Endangered Species Act (ESA) prohibits the threatening of fish or fish habitat with chlorinated water discharges. These three federal regulations present a daily challenge to thousands of waterworks operators who are responsible for providing a safe product for the public.

Historically, the drinking water industry has used specific sulfur-based compounds to neutralize chlorine. These reagents include sodium thiosulfate, sodium bisulfate and sodium metabisulfite. However, during dosing applications, these "good-old-boy chemicals" can present distinct health hazards to the waterworks operator and/or the fish that occupy nearby streams.

Vitamin C in the form of ascorbic acid (and later, sodium ascorbate) was discovered to be an effective neutralizer of oxidants such as chlorine. Vitamin C is just as effective, and in many important ways, better than other sulfur-based chlorine neutralizers.

Vitamin C offers an important advantage: it synergistically boosts the immune system of fish while simultaneously removing toxic disinfectant dangers from their sensitive habitat.

A NEW OPTION: VITAMIN C

Vitamin C was originally discovered and selected as many utility's chemical of choice in 1989 at the suggestion of kidney dialysis physicians. Since the use of vitamin C is documented to be an effective technique, preparations are taken to adapt this method into the waterworks field. The Public Utility District of Skagit County is believed to be the first utility to use vitamin C to neutralize chlorinated water in order to protect fish during large-scale flushing operations.

In the beginning, there were few reasons to select vitamin C, other than the fact that it was recommended by a medical professional. Since then, the author has realized numerous new reasons for choosing ascorbic acid to dechlorinate water during flushing operations. What follows are some of them.

Vitamin C is environmentally logical.

Environmentally, it makes good sense to use a reagent that is beneficial to fish (by strengthening their immune system) to eliminate a deadly pollutant that will kill fish at very low doses (0.011 milligrams per liter chronic level). Use something good to remove something bad. Not only do fish benefit, but all forms of biodiversity found in streams and lakes become stronger and suffer less routine physical distress with increasing levels of vitamin C. Fish have been found to be attracted to it.

Ascorbic acid is comprised of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon, which after chlorine neutralization, results in a milder and safer reaction consisting of inorganic chloride and dehydroascorbic acid2. The latter byproduct is still a nutritional benefit to living organisms. If ammonia is present in the water to be treated, as found in chloraminated water supplies, another byproduct, ammonium chloride, can be detected. (Ammonium chloride from chloraminated water supplies is thought to be a byproduct with all chemical dechlorination reagents.)

Sulfur-based byproducts that are produced during dechlorination, other than hydrochloric acid, are not commonly known.

Vitamin C is a proven reducing agent.

The Environmental Protection Agency published a report3 in 1989, which listed ascorbic acid as a dechlorination reagent worth considering. Today, water-testing laboratories use ascorbic acid to quench chlorine from a field water sample, which has been drawn for VOC testing at a distant laboratory.

The medical field has used ascorbic acid to neutralize chlorine since the early 1970s. Free chlorine and chloramines were found to destroy the reverse osmosis membrane used during hemodialysis. Today, many doctors prefer large carbon block filters to remove chlorine prior to kidney patient treatment.

Recently, water utilities have also demonstrated effective results in the field. In December of1998, AWWA's monthly publication, Opflow published an article4 on early vitamin C technology.

A recent American Water Works Research Foundation (AwwaRF) study5 documented the effect of various compounds on oxygen levels. Their findings, which were based on field measurements, indicated that water treated with vitamin C somehow increased the oxygen levels of the sampled water. While this cannot be accepted as the norm, it does reveal that vitamin C imparts less of an effect on oxygen levels when compared to the other sulfur-based reagents that were included in the study.

There is more to vitamin C than ascorbic acid.

The most cost-effective form of vitamin C is in the form of pure ascorbic acid. Vitamin C can also be purchased as sodium ascorbate. Certain utilities prefer sodium ascorbate because of its higher pH. Sodium ascorbate has a pH of approximately 7.8 while compared to ascorbic acid, which yields a pH of approximately 3. Utilities with poorly buffered supplies have noticed a slight decrease in pH when using ascorbic acid, whereas upon switching to sodium ascorbate, no pH drop was detected.

Sodium ascorbate is slightly more expensive than ascorbic acid and approximately 11% more is required to match the same effectiveness of pure ascorbic acid.

The shelf life for vitamin C is reported to be in excess of one year if kept in a dry, cool, dark storage area.

The most common question asked is where vitamin C can be purchased. Integra Chemical6 (800-322-6646) will provide small samples (150 grams) for testing purposes as well as sell multiple 55 pound boxes of pure ascorbic acid. They are experienced with vitamin C technology.

Expense is justifiable.

Many water utilities have documented an inactivation ratio of 2.5:1, which means that 2.5 pounds of ascorbic acid is necessary to neutralize one pound of chlorine in solution. (The ratio, which contained in the AWWA Opflow publication4, has not yet been duplicated in the field.) Perhaps the effectiveness and efficiency of ascorbic acid is dependent upon pH or other factors. The author desires to receive feedback from future ratio research.

The overall expense of using vitamin C is justifiable when all factors are considered. Utilities are finding that the expense is negligible when all risks and consequences are factored into the flushing operation process.

Vitamin C is simple to use.

There are numerous methods for applying the vitamin C solution to a stream of chlorinated water. The simplest method is to drip a prepared solution of at least one percent solution (by weight) of ascorbic acid into an open channel condition, such as a ditch or curb. On the other hand, large utilities have elected to build a mobile trailer that can be driven to the site, although these have fallen out of favor with newer options now available. 

Today, there are numerous manufacturers of high quality injection devices, which can dechlorinate large flow rates from a fire hydrant. The author collects information on these devices, most of which were nonexistent a few years ago. Pollardwater.com offers the largest selection of these devices available to the water industry. Vitamin C in the form of a large tablet6 is also available.

The chemical rate of reaction for vitamin C is significantly faster than sodium thiosulfate. Because of sodium thiosulfate's slow reaction rate, QA/QC testing must take place "further downstream". Upon collection of a field sample, sufficient time is required to verify inactivation. During this time, a significant amount of improperly treated water can be released. The reaction time for vitamin C is nearly instantaneous, and it can therefore be quickly verified at the point of discharge.

Vitamin C is safer than sulfur-based reagents.

Some dechlorination reagents can act as a respiratory irritant or can otherwise be toxic to waterworks operators. Still other reagents are reported to scavenge oxygen from the treated water, that defeats our main objective, that of protecting fish from water utility operations. Current findings5 indicate that vitamin C is less of a concern in these areas. Vitamin C is the only reagent with an NFPA rating of 0,0,0.

Formal research7 has shown that live catfish can tolerate high doses of vitamin C beyond 3000 ppm for 24-hour duration. (It should be noted that during these experiments air was bubbled through the water, apparently removing concerns about depleted oxygen levels at such high levels.) Each utility must carefully consider the above statements, since no one has yet determined the amount that can eventually begin to harm fish.

As far as humans are concerned, vitamin C is now available as a NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) certified antioxidant (in both forms) for human consumption6. The City of Lacey, Washington is the first water purveyor to capitalize on this certification by incorporating vitamin C into their routine water treatment process. Lacey uses it to lower chlorine levels following iron/manganese treatment that requires chlorine to facilitate the removal of those inorganic compounds. Their past water quality record has allowed Lacey to avoid chlorination altogether. Their chemical cost is estimated (by the author) to be approximately $25 per million gallons, or only about $50 per day. Lacey officials prefer vitamin C to any other sulfur-based reagent.

Public perception of vitamin C is favorable.

The public is somewhat familiar with vitamin C, but they are unfamiliar with sodium thiosulfate and sulfite compounds. Vitamin C is found naturally in most fruits and vegetables, and some individuals even consume 2 or 3 grams of extra vitamin C on a daily basis for health purposes.

In general, vitamin C has received excellent press ratings ever since Linus Pauling earned his first Nobel Peace Prize for his research. He personally consumed over a pound of sodium ascorbate each month.

There are other uses for vitamin C.

Ascorbic acid has also shown itself an excellent manganese stain remover, especially for tank interiors and customer laundry problems caused by manganese. Design engineers protect sensitive deionization resin beads and reverse osmosis membranes by using vitamin C. It also has been investigated as a simple means to quench unused ozone at ozonation generation facilities.

Authorities are comfortable with vitamin C chemistry.

In general, environmental authorities are intrigued with ascorbic acid. After all, it removes chlorine effectively as documented by the EPA and it boosts the fish's immune system. When compared to sulfur-based compounds, vitamin C seems to be compatible with their thought process and beliefs. Furthermore, it is a nutrient that fish require to aid them in the healing process after sustaining an injury.

WORDS OF CAUTION

As with any chemical process to neutralize chlorine, it is imperative to verify and monitor effective and continuous dechlorination. Underdosing and overdosing with any chemical can cause injury to aquatic life. It is important to note that the target chlorine dose can vary over time, especially when dechlorinating a new water main disinfected with calcium hypochlorite tablets or granules during pipe installation. It is also important to document each dechlorination event for operational and legal reasons. Be prepared for under-treatment emergencies by having a portable means to add additional reagent to the yet chlorinated stream of water.

Additional hazards to fish can exist. It is also important to minimize turbidity or suspended solid concentrations when flushing. Even the amount of time taken to shut down the flushing operation can be injurious to fish due to the "stranding" of fish in pockets or pools that did not exist when the flushing operation began.

Make certain that you have obtained permission from the appropriate authorities to use vitamin C or any other reagent. It may not be approved in your area. Obtain all necessary permits in advance. Evaluate other reagents and other procedures. Seek help when starting any dechlorination program. Study the MSDS for every reagent.

CONCLUSION

Many professionals feel that vitamin C offers a new and effective option for waterworks operators who will be dechlorinating more often than in the past. Additional research is needed to define the total impact on aquatic life from all dechlorination compounds, including vitamin C.

Vitamin C technology is logical from an ESA perspective. It is possible that vitamin C will soon be recognized as the best method, and perhaps, the only method, for neutralizing halogens.

Supplimentary positive info pertaining to yeast..
http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article.php?id=213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
http://www.gftc.ca/articles/2003/baker07.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) mutants lacking CuZn-superoxide dismutase (CuZnSOD) are hypersensitive to oxygen and have significantly decreased replicative life span. Both these defects can be ameliorated by exogenous ascorbate. The effect of ascorbate on life span is complicated by auto-oxidation of its compound in the medium. If negative effects of auto-oxidation are prevented by exchange of the medium, ascorbate prolongs not only mean but also maximal replicative life span of the yeast in the atmosphere of air and of pure oxygen. These results demonstrate that life span shortening due to the lack of a vital antioxidant enzyme can be ameliorated by a low-molecular weight antioxidant.

General Acid Info for yeast.

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ASCORBIC ACID	
Vitamin C. No longer recommended for beer making. Will increase the nutrient value of beer, but this is probably not the intent of those using it. Under certain circumstances the ascorbic acid can cause yeast to produce ethyl acetate compounds, smell like nail polish remover. Ascorbic acid has previously been touted as an anti-oxidant, but research by the University of Texas has shown that for it to be active it must be combined in a low pH solution with sulfur dioxide. Neither a low pH nor sulfur dioxide is advisable for any form of beer.

CITRIC ACID	
Use for acid adjustments in fruit wines. Adjusting acid to taste in fully fermented grape wines. Also used in barrel care as an acidifier (lowers pH) when combined with sulfites in a rinsing solution. 1 teaspoon  = 3.6g. Do not mix with highly alkaline solutions (e.g. sanitizers). Release of potentially harmful gases possible. Citric acid will decompose under the influence of malolactic bacteria, forming diacetyl, and may cause arise in volatile acidity (vinegar aroma). Use in unfermented grape wines is not recommended.

TARTARIC ACID	
Use for acid adjustments in wine. Acid of choice for all adjustments. Consult a good winemaking textbook for addition amounts. 1 teaspoon = about 4 grams. Do not mix with highly alkaline solutions (e.g., sanitizers). Release of potentially harmful gases possible. 

MALIC ACID	
Potential use for acid adjustments in wine discouraged due to possible activation of malolactic activity along with strong 'apple' taste apparent in wines with high concentrations of malic acid. Consult a winemaking textbook for usage rates. 1 teaspoon = approximately 4 g. Do not mix with highly alkaline solutions (e.g. sanitizers). Release of potentially harmful gases possible.

GRAPE TANNIN	
Increases astringency in grape or fruit wines. Some use as a clarifying agent in wine and beer. Consult winemaking textbook on usage.

Some of this info is from now unknown websites, and some from prodding the Bio/Chem guys/students at work.. Hopefully it helps..

[CoopsOz]

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Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) mutants lacking CuZn-superoxide dismutase (CuZnSOD) are hypersensitive to oxygen and have significantly decreased replicative life span. Both these defects can be ameliorated by exogenous ascorbate. The effect of ascorbate on life span is complicated by auto-oxidation of its compound in the medium. If negative effects of auto-oxidation are prevented by exchange of the medium, ascorbate prolongs not only mean but also maximal replicative life span of the yeast in the atmosphere of air and of pure oxygen. These results demonstrate that life span shortening due to the lack of a vital antioxidant enzyme can be ameliorated by a low-molecular weight antioxidant.

General Acid Info for yeast.

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ASCORBIC ACID	
Vitamin C. No longer recommended for beer making. Will increase the nutrient value of beer, but this is probably not the intent of those using it. Under certain circumstances the ascorbic acid can cause yeast to produce ethyl acetate compounds, smell like nail polish remover. Ascorbic acid has previously been touted as an anti-oxidant, but research by the University of Texas has shown that for it to be active it must be combined in a low pH solution with sulfur dioxide. Neither a low pH nor sulfur dioxide is advisable for any form of beer.

Thanks for the info but now I'm confused. Can I use vitamin C in our hobby or not.

[TownDrunk]

Thanks for the info!! that was a good read.

I just skip the hassle of all this. The tap water here I wouldn't even give to my dog (if I had one)

I just take my 5 gallon water jugs to the RO machine at the water store. Its a quarter a gallon. Tastes good too.

[theholymackerel]

Under certain circumstances the ascorbic acid can cause yeast to produce ethyl acetate compounds, smell like nail polish remover.

Sounds like vitamin C can cause a wash to ferment with more heads.

[triggernum5]

Yea, I just slapped a bunch of raw info I've found.. Good and Bad.. Acetic acid I know causes head dillemmas, tartaric/tanic are better (I can confirm that note I included from the net), next run ascorbic it is but I won't be fermenting much in the next while to play around unless I just do sample sized ferments which are a waste of time anyways.. I'm still leaning toward phosphoric/ntric acid testing.. Its pretty sad that I work in a freakin' lab, and I can't even get those without risk due to stupid politics.. Guess I'll have to wait until I can get some hydroponics resevoir pH buffer.. Its a 10% phosphoric acid solution, but the pKA of those might blow yeast sky high..
Coops, there is no particular risk to health I can see at all.. The question is will the Cons outweigh the Pros as far as fermenting is concerned.. The SO2 addition doesn't apply to us atleast (although you'd be surprised how much is in most water unless your country well stinks literally of it).. Also, IMHO fermenting for distillation is about 100x easier than fermenting for a good beer (Lagers especially).. With beer/wine you're basically stuck with the yeast byproducts 100%.. Thats why temperature stability is so much more important, and why high ABV beers are typically piss..

[wineo]

Hey guys,if you use tartaric acid,{ive been useing it in wines for a long time}and if your wine,or wash is too acidic,then you can put in a tsp of cream of tartar in the wash,and store in a cool place for a week,and the cream of tartar will form crystals in the bottom of the container.those crystals are tartaric acid that are bound up.it removes some of the acid!
You carefully rack the wash,leaving the crystals behind.You can find cream of tartar in the seasoning isle at the store.
wineo

[MikeyT]

So, what'd be wrong with squirting a few spoonfuls of lemon juice in the water? The vitamin C would get rid of the chlorine and the juice would lower the PH of the water a little for better fermentation.

[triggernum5]

I stole the cream of tartar that had been in my mom's cupboard since I started cooking as a kid.. The stuff is great at lowering quantity of heads.. Acetic acid seems to make more heads.. I've yet to see results from vitamin C, although the data claims it produces more acetates.. Aspirin I guess would be another worth looking into.. The town water dechlorinators will obviously have different goals than we do.. I have to ask the question, is it chlorine's oxidation readiness that hurts yeast, or simply its existance in small molecules?? (Due to all the conjugate base crap I haven't truly dealt with since 2nd year OChem (By dealt with I mean actually cared to comprehend.. Sadly I teach it on a daily basis:)..Obviously its in alot of plastics in polymerized stable forms)

[triggernum5]

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Chloramine:
Chloramine in tap water gives a greenish cast to the water in bulk, versus the normally bluish cast to pure water or water containing only free chlorine disinfectant. This greenish color may be observed by filling a white polyethylene bucket with chloraminated tap water and comparing it to chloramine-free water such as distilled water or a sample from a swimming pool.
 
New swimming pool initially filled with chloramine-treated tap water, showing greenish color of chloramine in bulk water. The color is less apparent in smaller volumes, but is noticeable in a white 5-gallon bucket, or even faintly detectable in a glass tumbler on careful inspection.

Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours. 

Situations where NH2Cl should be removed:

Aquarium owners must remove the chloramine from their tap water because it is toxic to fish. Aging the water for a few days removes chlorine but not the more stable chloramine, which can be neutralised using products available at pet stores.

Many animals are sensitive to chloramine and it must be removed from water given to many animals in zoos.

Chloramine must also be removed from the water prior to use in kidney dialysis machines, as it would come in contact with the bloodstream across a permeable membrane. However, since chloramine is neutralized by the digestive process, kidney dialysis patients can still safely drink chloramine-treated water.

Home brewers use reducing agents such as sodium metabisulfite to remove chloramine from brewing liquor as it, unlike chlorine, cannot be removed by boiling.

In swimming pools, chloramines are formed by the reaction of free chlorine with organic substances. The lower the concentration of chloramines the better, because chloramines, compared to free chlorine, are both less effective as a sanitizer and more irritating to the eyes of swimmers. When swimmers complain of eye irritation from "too much chlorine" in a pool, the problem is typically a high level of chloramines, caused by too little chlorine in relation to the amount of organic matter. Pool test kits designed for use by homeowners are sensitive to both free chlorine and chloramines, which can be misleading.

Don't know how I overlooked this info before.. My bad..