Flooding and Pukin. What are they and the differences.

[Prairiepiss]

What is column flooding and still puking? Many get them cornfused as the same thing. But they are not.

Let's start with column flooding.
Column flooding usually happens in reflux stills. That have a packed column. It's not something that happens in a pot still. It is where the heat being put into the still boiler. Creates to much vapor. And all that vapor is returning to the column as reflux. From the reflux condenser knocking it all down. The problem is. There is so much rising vapors that the liquid reflux combined with the column packing. Is creating a sort of blockage. And the rising vapors are holding the liquid reflux in the column. Not allowing it to return to the boiler. Eventualy coming out the top of the still. Creating a bad safety hazard. Not to mention very poor performance.

How to tell if your still is flooded? Not that easy. If you don't have sightglasses. About the only way to tell is. The column will sound like it is boiling inside the column. Not the boiler. But inside the column. That's the reflux being held up by the rising vapors. And the vapors are passing through the liquid. Like its boiling.
On a open top LM and or a VM. You may be able to see the liquid rising by looking down through the open top. Condenser design and visibility may not allow this. With a sightglass you will be able to see the liquid. And know if it is to high. Or to much.
When a reflux column floods. The thermometer will also more then likely be covered with the liquid. Making your temp reading to be off. How far and what way. Will depend on your still.
The takeoff liquid will still be clear as normal. So this will not give you an indication that it has flooded.
The ABV may or maynot drop. Fast or slow? But not always the case.

Flooding can also occur in a plated still with no packing or with packing. Flooding in a plated column would be when the liquid level on the plate or plates. Is above normal operating range. But this may be an intended outcome. If so then it falls back to. Flooding of a plated column is when the liquid on the plate or plates. Is so deep that it causes entrainment of liquid from plate to the plate above.

What to do when you have a flooding situation. Simple turn the heat down to a safe level. Allow the flooded column to drain. And readjust the heat to a lower setting then when it was flooding.

How to prevent flooding? Well you gota learn your still. And how much heat you can throw at it. And how much heat is to much. Once you know that. You will be better suited to prevent flooding later on.

Now let's talk still puke or puking.
A still puke is when the still charge foams up excessively. This foam either keeps rising till it comes out the takeoff. Or till enough of it gets into the riser or column. That the rising vapors carries the foam up and out of the still. Puking can happen in both reflux stills and pot stills. The foam creates a structure. That can be moved by the vapors in an open riser like a pot still. Or effectively blocking the packing on a reflux column. Making it get pushed even further up the column. The solids that form the foam are then deposited in the packing and the rest of the still.

How can you tell when your still has puked? You may get off color product coming off the still. Depending on the ferment color? It may even just be cloudy. If you get an off color or cloudy spirit during the fores, heads, or hearts sections. More then likely it puked. Tails on some washes can come out funky. So its harder to tell after you start collecting tails.
The rising foam or puke can disrupt the flow of vapors and or deposit solids on the thermometer. In a reflux still. So again the temp readings may act funny. Like with flooding.
Take off rate may slow down or stop. In a reflux still. It is possible for the solids in the foam to block the packing. And build up pressure. And stop the flow of vapors to the condenser or takeoff. This could be noted as slow product takeoff. Surging product take off. This can be a serious safety hazard. If the still was unattended. And to much pressure built up. On a pot still. The foam can carry solids big enough to block the condenser. Again speed would slow. And if blocked enough. Stop then spit product across the room. From the pressure build up.

What to do when a still pukes. Shut it down. Take it apart and clean clean clean. And probably best to just add what you already collected back into the boiler. And run it again.

Things to help avoid a puke. If the recipe you are using is a known foamer. Don't charge the boiler with as much as you normally do. Fill to around a half boiler or so. Less may even be needed.
Heat slower. Don't crank the heat all the way up. Just let it come up to temp slow. And run the still a little slower then normal.
Some say add some olive oil, butter, or some other anti foam. To the boiler. Do your own research on these methods. And make your own determination on using them.
Let the ferment clear as good as you can. And don't transfer any solids to the boiler. Or as little as possible.
Boiling a wort before fermentation for a hot break. May it maynot help during distillation. There are pros and cons to this. And again research before commiting to this method.

So as you see a flood and puke aren't the same thing. But are close in the fact that there is unwanted stuff in the column or riser. That will cause problems.

Mods again I've seen these two subjects come up more often lately. And thought this mite be a good sticky or a good thread for the lounge. Do with it as you se fit.

Any corrections or things I missed let me know.

[Prairiepiss]

Damn got some good responses on the other thread. And not one on this one.
Shameless bump!

[drinkingdog]

Once again excellent. If a new Distiller can't understand all of your hard work then they are to dumb and shouldn't take up this hobby.

[aj2456]

finally got the time to properly read this and was well worth it , great work as always(puts my posts to shame), definately a candidate- as you mentioned- for stickying

especially liked the what to do and how to avoid, but probably not getting the attention it deserves as no piccys, but think thats a comment about viewers

[Richard7]

? I didn't even see this last night! Another good one and thanks for the "shameless bump!"
It gave me a chance to check this one out.
I have not yet experienced puking on my reflux still but I have seen flooding. In addition to the boiling noise one of the symptoms I noticed was rocking motion on my column. My rig is purdy sturdy but when it was flooding it seemed to rock back and forth as it gurgled. If you suspect flooding and you have a thermometer in the top of your column like mine and you pull out the thermometer you get a fountain! Not the safest or smartest move but a dead sure give away that it's flooding. I didn't pull mine all the way out just raised it off the ptfe seal and pushed it back down in a hurry.

This again is all great info for a learning stiller!

[jarheadshiner]

Still procrastinating on a VM build because I am still not crystal clear on some of the concepts and operation. This was one. Thanks for taking the time to clarify Mr. P. You keep it up and I might actually get this thing started!

[Odin]

Puking, I find, happens quite easily on barley washes. Especially all malt. Colour in your destilate is the way to tell.

Flooding ... glass top part of the column might help. Or a pressure measuring rod.

Great post, Mr. P! As usual, actually.

Regards, Odin.

[woodshed]

Great post PP. Bringing up the temp in a high foam mash is critical. When I hit 140F I turn it down and sneak up on the rest. The temp rise from 140F is very drastic with my still so the sneaking. I suspect many stills act the same. I do this no matter what mash I'm doing. To me it just makes good sense.

[googe]

Nice work PP

[Odin]

Just thinking out loud ... could unfermented sugars or maybe proteins have an influence on puking? Rum is molasses is a lot of unfermented sugars. Same goes for barley malt, even though there, it may be a combination of less unfermented sugars and more proteines. Would better conversion and (in the case of grains) a longer proteine rest have an positive impact?

Odin.

[googe]

I've always thought of washes/mashes that puke are to do with density, anything with density is hard to refine, which is what the distilling process is about.

[Odin]

Interesting ...

In beer making the key to foam is ... if I am not mistaken ... proteines. If puking is caused by foaming, might the proteines be part of the problem?

My sugar washes on grain (SF, UJ, etc.) never puke.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

In beer brewing. A boil is done for a few reasons. One is to achieve a hot break. The hot break is when the solids (small grain pieces) and dissolved solids (proteins and starches) become foam. The dissolved solids will precipitate on the small non dissolved solids. Then the foam turns to all solids and fall back into the boiling liquid. And it no long foams. These solids will collect in the bottom of the boil kettle. After the boil is complete. And can be removed or separated out. Giving a cleaner finished beer.

This can or could be accomplished with any AG or molasses wort. But may be undesirable for distilling purposes. Boiling will kill off any enzymes left from the mash. So no more conversion will happen during ferment. If you plan to ferment on the grain. You can't do a boil. For obvious reasons.

So what do you do? Better mashing techniques to keep the proteins and starches to a minimum. Will help. Protein rests and better filtering. And making sure all the starches are converted to sugars.

Sugar washes may or maynot foam. Depending on what ingredients are added to it. And how they are added. There is a very good reason the grains aren't boiled in sugarheads like UJSSM and sweetfeed. Boiling these grains before fermentation. Without adding enzymes. Will leave a ton of starches in the ferment. That won't be converted. And will increase the amount of foam during distilling. You van see many examples of this. Where a new distiller who found one of those crappy recipes from YouTube or other questionable site. That says to boil the grains for a sugarhead. Many of them have pukes because of it. Not only in the distilling process. But also in the fermenting process. You will also notice that recipes that use corn meal instead of cracked corn. The starches and more readily available in corn meal. And it has a lot more finer solids. That are harder to separate. So it will foam more. Higher protein grains like rye if used in larger amounts could also cause a sugarhead to foam more.

The problem is. You have to find a compromise between flavors, efficiency, and the amount of foam made. To get the flavor or amount of flavor you want. You mite just have to put up with a bunch of foam.
Or if you don't want the foam. You will have to live with a lesser flavor.
And the efficiency can go either way. Depending on what route you take.

For any ferment with grains. A lot can be learned from the home brew beer guys. But you have to adjust their practices to get a good product to distill.

Just my two nickles.

[Odin]

I'd call it two dollars or more, Mr. P. Good write up! I am currently learning from beer brewers how to make better AG's. Not saying: make beer, 'cause that's something else all together, but it sure is helpful.

Odin.

[Prairiepiss]

Odin have you read this site? How to brew by John Palmer. I would highly suggest getting the book. I really liked that book. I have a number of brewing books now. And I always go back to his. When I need to look something up. I would recommend this book and site to anyone. For our hobby here and beer brewing.
http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Windy City]

Mr P Thanks for the great post should definitely become a sticky
I know you use electric but what about boiling stones for gas rigs helping with puking like to know your thoughts

Thanks for all your input

Windy City

[Richard7]

Sugar washes may or maynot foam. Depending on what ingredients are added to it. And how they are added. There is a very good reason the grains aren't boiled in sugarheads like UJSSM and sweetfeed. Boiling these grains before fermentation. Without adding enzymes. Will leave a ton of starches in the ferment. That won't be converted. And will increase the amount of foam during distilling. You van see many examples of this. Where a new distiller who found one of those crappy recipes from YouTube or other questionable site. That says to boil the grains for a sugarhead. Many of them have pukes because of it. Not only in the distilling process. But also in the fermenting process. You will also notice that recipes that use corn meal instead of cracked corn. The starches and more readily available in corn meal. And it has a lot more finer solids. That are harder to separate. So it will foam more. Higher protein grains like rye if used in larger amounts could also cause a sugarhead to foam more.

After reading this, it has me questioning something I have been doing all along. When I am getting a batch of faux wheat whiskey (just a sugarhead with shredded wheat) ready to ferment, I always boiled my sugar and wheat. But I only bring it to a boil and stop. There is no way I could let this syrupy mix continue to boil as it would all end up in the floor. Don't ask me how I know .

I have not had a problem with puking (like you said may or may not) and I end up with 25 gallons of wash in a 28 gallon still. Only three gallons of headspace. Since it is not causing puking I may be getting off topic but I wonder if this is affecting my flavor by cooking it down to a starch at the beginning. . Maybe I should try adding a little enzymes or not boiling.
Sorry just thinking out loud.

[Prairiepiss]

Richard7 my post was geared more towards actual grains. Cereals more then likely won't have these problems. I always boil my all bran. And never have had a problem. But I don't feel they are the same as say corn. If you boil cereal (without sugar) it just turns mushy. If you boil corn. It turns to glue. From all the starches released. The cereal has been processed. Many times over by the time we get it. To the point nutrients need to be added to it. To be nutritious for us to eat. How much conversion you would actually get. By adding enzymes. Mite not be worth the money or trouble? The only way to know would be try a small batch like an AG. And not add sugar. To see if you did get any conversion. You would need to test before and after enzymes addition. As the may be sugars added to the cereal to begin with.

[Richard7]

Thank you for the reply. What you said makes perfect sense. Sorry for getting off topic. Back to the show!

[jarheadshiner]

I always boil water in a BOP and pour it over the SF (corn, oats, and barley rolled in molasses) in my fermenters when I am starting with all new grain. I always thought this would free up the molasses and release some flavor from the grains. On future generations I just add a little new to replace the spent grains along with the backset and call it good. I've never had a wash puke but I will say the first ferment is always more foamy and requires more head space in the fermenter. Not sure if this is relevant but...

[Prairiepiss]

Mr P Thanks for the great post should definitely become a sticky
I know you use electric but what about boiling stones for gas rigs helping with puking like to know your thoughts

Thanks for all your input

Windy City

Since I haven't used gas or boil stones. I'm not the best to comment on it.

But from reading others outcomes. Some say they help and some say they don't.

I personaly would look at it from a different standpoint then others seam to. Yes boil stones create a more even boil. Is this good or bad for foam? Well without them your boil will be made up from bigger more random bubbles. Where boil stones will give you more smaller bubbles. That are not so random in placement. While for alcohol separation and better efficiency. More smaller bubbles are the best. But as far as foaming goes. More smaller bubbles will create more foam. Even in a wash that has less of the solids that make up the foam.

Let me help you understand why I say this. One of my other hobbies is reef tanks. In this hobby we use an apparatus called a protein simmer. It is a filter that uses water flow and bubbles to remove proteins and solids. Without any filter media. It pumps water into the bottom of a column. In that flow of water tiny bubbles are added. The proteins oils and solids cling to these bubbles. And rise up as foam. There is a collection cup at the top of the column. Where the foam rises up and over into the collection cup. While the water outlet is below the water level. So the foam doesn't come back into the system. And clean water flows out. A protein skimmer doesn't work with large bubbles. For it to work efficiently it needs very small bubbles. Larger bubbles don't work.

You can research protein skimmers. There is a lot of info on them around the net.

You can do something similar in your wort. When you are airating it before you pitch the yeast. If you use a fine air stone. That produces many tiny bubbles. It will create a large amount of foam on top of the wort. If you just place the tube with no air stone on it. You won't get near the foam. As you would with the air stone.

So now will boil stones help reduce foaming and or pukeing?
Again I haven't tried and don't have practical experience with it. But I would say its not a good way of thinking.

An easy experiment could be conducted. To see if it will help. If you were to take a wort and boil it. With and without boil stones. And look at the amount of foam made for the hot break. You would have to do it on two separate worts. Made exactly the same way. Or split a single wort into two equal parts. And try both ways. The problem would be. Getting the same amount of solids in both test boils. If one was to have more then the other. The outcomes wouldn't show what is needed. Like if you split a single wort into two equal parts. If you poured one of the top of the other. It would have less solids in it. As they would stay behind in the original container. It would have to be mixed really well before pouring off. And done frequently. As the solids would settle as you were pouring.

As I said I have no practical experience. So take my word as you see fit. And if anyone has a different take on this. Please feel free to explain your experience.

Now this brings me to something that has been in the back of my mind. For a long time now.
Could something like a protein skimmer be useful to filter a wort before fermentation? Or even after fermentation before distilling?

Before fermentation. It would remove many of the solids that would cause foaming. But the stuff you do remove. May also take away flavors and or nutrients beneficial for a good ferment.

After fermentation. Again it would remove those solids that foam comes from. But at what cost. What would the addition of oxygen do to the beer? Would it create oxidation? Cause off flavors? Could co2 be used instead of ambient air? Would that cause another problem. By carbonating the beer. And creating another foaming problem.

We are talking for distilling here. But what about for actual drinking beer? Would it mess with head retention? In the finished beer?

Just some things to think about. And reminded me of something to add to the original post.

Distilling a wash/beer that still has dissolved CO2 in it. Can cause foaming and puking.
I will add that now.

[Prairiepiss]

I always boil water in a BOP and pour it over the SF (corn, oats, and barley rolled in molasses) in my fermenters when I am starting with all new grain. I always thought this would free up the molasses and release some flavor from the grains. On future generations I just add a little new to replace the spent grains along with the backset and call it good. I've never had a wash puke but I will say the first ferment is always more foamy and requires more head space in the fermenter. Not sure if this is relevant but...

Yes. There is a difference between pouring boiling water over grains. And boiling grains.

Pouring boiling water over the grains. Will more then likely not allow them to gelatinize. It will release a small amount of starches and other stuff. But not release all of it.

Boiling the grains. Will more then likely bring them to their geletinize point. Where there release everything. And you have a big gooy mess.

So there will be a big difference.

[Prairiepiss]

Ok I can't edit the original. So if one of the more could be so nice to add this to the original. I would appreciate it.

Dissolved CO2 in a finished or not so finished ferment. Can cause foaming and puking in a still.
If you have a ferment that isn't quite done. Or still has a lot of dissolved CO2 in it. You should remove it. This can be done a few ways.
Pouring it from one container to another. So that it splashes a bit. Will release dissolved CO2.
Using a whip apparatus like a clothes hanger in a drill. To whip the dissolved CO2 out. Before or after you add it to the boiler. Don't do it while it is still on the yeast bed. Or you will mix the yeast back into the cleared wash.
Both of these methods should be done right before you add it to the boiler. As to keep and infection from taking hold. From adding bacteria to a ferment.

[Odin]

Yep, co2 definately will cause foaming. Another approach (apart from throwing it from one to the other container) is ... put some ice packs in. Contracted fluids will release exsessive gasses ...

Odin.

[Windy City]

Thanks for the reply Mr P
Plenty of food for thought in this thread
I have never used boiling stones in my boil kettle when making actual beer but may try it next time as kind of a test

Thanks Again

Windy City

[Prairiepiss]

Thanks for the reply Mr P
Plenty of food for thought in this thread
I have never used boiling stones in my boil kettle when making actual beer but may try it next time as kind of a test

Thanks Again

Windy City

I would like to hear the outcome. Please let us know if you do.

[J Allen Kaiser]

First off: a great big "thank you!" to all you gentlemen posting and running these forums. I have benefitted tremendously from being able to search & read them. This is my first time posting after having experimented with homebrewing beer & this hobby for a while.

I thought I'd share some of my experience with foaming/puking while running all-grain batches through a reflux still, and add to the great info Prariepiss and the rest of you gave us.

1.) washes with lots of protein & residual-sugar tend to foam a great deal more than fully-fermented, "dry," ones. When mashing to make distillers' beer, you want the opposite of what beer brewers want: no head and no sweetness in the fermented product.

2.) In brewing, there are 3 useful enzymes used by the grains (eg malt) to break down the grains' constituent materials into yeast-digestible substances in the "wort" (unfermented beer.) These enzymes are increasingly active as the mash heats up, but are destroyed/inactivated when they reach their respective temperature thresholds. They are (in order of the increasing optimal temperatures at which they are active;)
Protease -- breaks down proteins; 115F-135F, (I.E. inactivated/destroyed above 135F)
Beta Amylase -- breaks down starch into simpler, MORE fermentable sugars; 130F-150F
Alpha Amylase -- breaks down starch into complex, LESS fermentable sugars; 155F-167F

So, with this info in mind, you want to hold your mash at the first target temperature (Protease) to break down the proteins which would otherwise create a beer's head. I mash at 122F for 20-30 minutes, then raise the temperature of the mash to 142 for the second enzyme rest, Beta Amylase, which I hold for one hour. I do not want to mash any higher than this during the rests, as the Alpha-Amylase would kick-in and begin producing less fermentable sugar which will both rob me of potential alcohol yield and produce a sweet wash full of complex, UN-yeast-digestible sugars that will foam more in the still.

3.) What Prariepiss said about gelatinizing starches is spot-on. Un-malted grains need to have their compact "starch matrixes" unraveled into "starch chains" by boiling so that the amylase enzymes mentioned above can access their molecular ends and begin breaking them into sugars. I mash with 2-row malt and corn grist, but I always boil the corn thoroughly before adding to the mash. My failing to do so has resulted in corn lumps of un-sweet starchy corn meal in my mash that won't convert to sugar or alcohol.

4.) What was mentioned about the "Hot-break" boil AFTER mashing is also accurate. Beer brewers use this to clarify the beer that is to be fermented and to give a consistent, not-too-foamy head to the beer. I must mention that a substance called Irish Moss (actually derived from a type of seaweed) is almost ALWAYS used to facilitate the hot-break. The soluble proteins "coagulate" (gather & stick together) on the Irish moss compounds and "flocculate" (fall to the bottom) of the boil kettle. Using a good dose of Irish Moss (it doesn't take much) has helped my washes tremendously to keep from foaming up. It's cheap, readily available at your local homebrew supply shop or online, and doesn't impart any flavors to the wort. Once the hot-break is done, you want to leave these protein clumps behind in the boil kettle; use a kettle screen, siphon tube, or gently pour the wort from off the top of the particulates.

5.) There is also a "cold-break" in brewing which happens when the hot, just-boiled wort is *rapidly* cooled to yeast-pitching temperature. This cold-break is achieved by an efficient wort-chiller (usually a counter-flow chiller that works exactly like your liebig condenser: by passing hot wort through it one direction while cold water passes around/past it in the opposite direction.) The cold-break coagulates and flocculates proteins that would otherwise make for a cloudy beer.

6.) Prairiepiss's concept of "protein skimming" DOES work and can be partially achieved during fermentation without oxidizing the beer, and won't rob the yeast of nutrients. In beer brewing, the thick layer of foamy head during the first part of fermentation is called the "kreuzen." It is comprised of grain proteins and yeast cells gathered by the tiny CO2 bubbles rising to the surface, and some german style beers call for this kreuzen to be skimmed from the top. An easier and more sanitary way to do this is to fill your fermenter more full of wort than normal (closer to topping off,) and pitch a larger-than-normal volume of yeast and secure a "blow-off-tube" (a 3/4" to 1" diameter section of vinyl tubing) to the top of the fermenter in place of the air lock, with the opposite end submerged in a bucket partially filled with water. The kreuzen will rise, be pushed up through the tube, and collect in the bucket. As long as the bucket-end of the tube remains submerged, you still have an airlock, and there will be enough yeast in the fermenter to finish the fermentation.

7.) Adding oil to the fermented wash in the still doesn't help break up bubbles' surface tension nor thus reduce foam...Not even a little. And if the wash does puke over, you, like me, will have an un-fun time cleaning up your oil-drenched column and packing and lyne arm and condenser and pot etc etc...

8.) Extra head-space is a must: filling the pot 2/3 full or less reduces the chance that the wash's "head" will rise to the column.

9.) Once the column begins to heat up, turn the flame down to a flicker, and make the stripping run slowly.

Hope this helps someone after me in the same way all of you helped me before.

[Richard7]

Hell of a first post J Allen Kaiser, Sound like you have been around the block a time or two.